mathjak107
Well-known Member
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- bayside ,queens , ny
I wanted to be stuffed with unpopped popcorn , then cremated ...that will be epic
A Mailed Dinner Invitation To Listen To An Annuity Sales Pitch
- Thread starter fmdog44
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fmdog44
Well-known Member
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- Houston, Texas
"Mooching a meal", spoken like a true commissioned sales guy. "When you never learned how to do anything go in to sales."
mathjak107
Well-known Member
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- bayside ,queens , ny
A
I did so well as a sales engineer I wanted to be on commission instead of salary and spent decades in a fine career .
today I am retired and one day a week teach controls and drives , for a lot of money I might add.
Not exactly a case WHEN YOU CANT DO ANYTHING ELSE
You would be so wrong .... I was an hvac technician who got in to more motor controls and variable frequency drives so I ended up migrating in to selling and designing custom pump control panels for the water pumping stations , sewage treatment plants and industrials .
I did so well as a sales engineer I wanted to be on commission instead of salary and spent decades in a fine career .
today I am retired and one day a week teach controls and drives , for a lot of money I might add.
Not exactly a case WHEN YOU CANT DO ANYTHING ELSE
mathjak107
Well-known Member
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- bayside ,queens , ny
You can spin it anyway you like in your mind ..... credit card points are not even close to the same thing as mooching a meal off someone who you have no interest in ... to think that is hilarious ......anyway you got the point ...whether you care is something else ...
C'est Moi
Dishin' it out.
- Location
- Houston Y'all
So you don't believe that they take the tax write off??
mathjak107
Well-known Member
- Location
- bayside ,queens , ny
You mean like spend 4 dollars to get one back . Tell you what give me 4 bucks and I will give you back 2 dollars , I will sweeten that write off ....sound like something you want to do ? That is a far better deal then that write off would be
Well now.....we've come to an agreement
Now, you best get busy and grill me up a steak, and I'll pretend to listen
C'est Moi
Dishin' it out.
- Location
- Houston Y'all
I'm pretty sure that the financial dinners I have attended were paid for by the companies, not individuals.
So, why not go back to straight up advertising?
I'm bettin' you guys do OK with the dinner offer, us 'moochers' and all
Actually, I was a bit piqued in regard to just what annuities yielded these days when I went to that dinner
The lady did a great job
It reconfirmed my thoughts
Buying/selling land is soooo much more lucrative
And my money isn't tied up
The dessert wasn't bad either
Not related to annuities, but to time shares. I have a friend that was a real estate developer that was involved with setting up time shares in Hawaii many years ago. He told me to run if I ever was invited to a timeshare "dinner" presentation etc.
He told me how the math worked. Basically, the setup would be to sell a week at the condo for about $20,000 plus annual costs of about $700. So he said that they were basically making about $1,000,000 for a 800 square foot condo for 52 weeks. The complex had 125 units on Maui. It cost the company about $100,000 to build the unit. The profits are obscene with time shares. I had invested in the company he worked for and that was MUCH more lucrative that a time share.
They did the same rubber stamp process in Florida, Texas, and in Victoria, British Columbia as well as Banff, Alberta.
It is a big business now, trying to get rid of time share properties, you actually can't give them away. The annual fees keep climbing.
He told me how the math worked. Basically, the setup would be to sell a week at the condo for about $20,000 plus annual costs of about $700. So he said that they were basically making about $1,000,000 for a 800 square foot condo for 52 weeks. The complex had 125 units on Maui. It cost the company about $100,000 to build the unit. The profits are obscene with time shares. I had invested in the company he worked for and that was MUCH more lucrative that a time share.
They did the same rubber stamp process in Florida, Texas, and in Victoria, British Columbia as well as Banff, Alberta.
It is a big business now, trying to get rid of time share properties, you actually can't give them away. The annual fees keep climbing.
fmdog44
Well-known Member
- Location
- Houston, Texas
So you were a salesman...……………………..not a sales "engineer"
mathjak107
Well-known Member
- Location
- bayside ,queens , ny
the work i did was sales engineering .. that does no mean just selling .. it is designing the circuitry as well .. . by definition " A sales engineer is someone who sells complex scientific and technological products or services to businesses. They must have extensive knowledge of the products' parts and functions and must understand the scientific processes that make these products work."
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mathjak107
Well-known Member
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- bayside ,queens , ny
you are sure of nothing .... how would you know ? that makes no sense .
Aunt Bea
SF VIP
- Location
- Near Mount Pilot
I agree I can't get worked up over a salesman's expenses or cost of doing business when his business is fleecing elderly people out of their life savings by selling them an annuity that is loaded with caps, fees, and commissions.
I'm not sure which bothers me more salesmen that sell financial products and don't understand what they are selling or the salesmen that do understand and sell them anyway.
mathjak107
Well-known Member
- Location
- bayside ,queens , ny
even if we used your convoluted comparison to credit card points , the reason the points are not comparable is you took the product ,which is the credit card from that company and took what they were selling .. so you should get the perks that go with taking the product .
you my friend are just mooching a meal and not taking the product
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mathjak107
Well-known Member
- Location
- bayside ,queens , ny
not all annuities are bad . those who think they are run on myth , and just parrot what they hear other un-informed people say .
you need to actually look under the hood to see what it entails . there are lots of low cost annuity products out there that are fine . in fact i highly recommend an spia for someone who wants one . they are as low cost as can be , they are like buying a cd . if you like the cash flow that is your deal. today the cash flow for a 70 year old is about 7k a year from 100k .
so the point is you cannot paint any product with a broad brush .
so what is a typical annuity offered at a dinner like ?
well this is an actual annuity offered at the david learner dinners, so lets see if this typical annuity product " fleeces the elderly as you say "
looking at the prudential defined income variable annuity .
at the time cd's were paying less than 1% .. that is important to keep in mind .
you will never see a spread sheet like this from your annuity provider . THIS IS THE REAL DEAL .
they would never let you see the bottom line growth rate you get on their guaranteed minimums and bonus bucks they give you .
here is an example of how these guaranteed minimums work and why what you think you are getting is not what you get .
this is actually not a bad products and as a proxy for cash it is actually pretty good.
it is called prudentials variable fixed income deferred annuity . it gives you a guaranteed 5-1/2% increases a year minimum or whatever your bond index that is linked got as a high water mark , which ever is higher .
in reality there is no way a bond index today with more then 2-1/2 % in fees being charged is going to beat 5-1/2% so your guarantee is going to be your deal .
you will never see spread sheets like this from the annuity issuer . this is your real deal once the curtain is pulled back .
so here is a deferred annuity for a single , you start at age 55 putting money in and delay until age 65 when you annuitize your money .
the fees are 2.55% and you are linked to the ast bond index , similiar to AGG .
the guaranteed min of 5.50% includes the fees , the bond index does not , so right off the bat you know the link to the index is there because it sounds good but it will not beat the min with those fees .
so below you see the yearly compounding of the promised 5.50% . that is taking part in a sub account which you can never take out or pass to heirs . the balance is only used to compute your draw when you annuitize . your actual account value is the one linked to the bond index with all the fees .
that is what you get if you want your money or pass to heirs .
so you see if you give them 100k and take the annuity after year 1 ,you get 4% of 105k or 4200.00 bucks.
for every year you delay your balance grows by 5.50% and your draw if you annuitize goes up 1/10% so finally 10 years later you get 5% of 180k or 9k .
that is a nice jump in income so it isn't a bad product but if you thought that 180k was yours to take you were wrong . your actual balance is what is linked to the bond index net of all those fees .
you can see it takes until age 75 before you get all your money back and see dollar 1 on their dime .
NOTE , YOUR ACTUAL GROWTH RATE BY AGE 90 IS NOT THE 5.50% YOU THOUGHT , BUT ONLY 4.55%
not bad at all when you consider at the time rates on cd's were a fraction of a point .
so for someone who wants to make there dollars go a whole lot further on the bond side of their investing this is really not a bad product . it sure does not fleece anyone at all and it provides a cash flow higher than you can get safely on your own
this is for a joint plan
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Aunt Bea
SF VIP
- Location
- Near Mount Pilot
Thanks for the information but if I need an annuity I'm pretty sure that I won't buy it at one of these dinner events.not all annuities are bad . those who think they are run on myth , and just parrot what they hear other un-informed people say .
you need to actually look under the hood to see what it entails . there are lots of low cost annuity products out there that are fine . in fact i highly recommend an spia for someone who wants one . they are as low cost as can be , they are like buying a cd . if you like the cash flow that is your deal
so the point is you cannot paint any product with a broad brush .
so what is a typical annuity offered at a dinner like ?
well this is an actual annuity offered at the david learner dinners, so lets see if this typical annuity product " fleeces the elderly as you say "
looking at the prudential defined income variable annuity you see starting the annuity at 55 and deferring to 65 gives a single about 9k a year based on 100k.
it has a 5.50% guaranteed minimum growth on the money you give them up until you draw an income. it also has a variable sub account in the ast bond index.
with 2.90% in fees the bond index will likely never be higher than the minimum guaranteed growth rate.
you cannot get access to that money that is given via the growth rate. you get 1/10% a year of it for every year you delay drawing .
assuming a 50/50 mix of cash and bonds , you can see drawing 9k a year from 100k in cash and bonds would be down to zero in just a bunch of years needing refilling from stocks.
the annuity income is never reduced by the years prior spending and goes on forever requiring less equities to be sold for inflation adjusting.
that is the power in using these annuity products.
they provide higher rates of cash flow even if not a roi.
here is the break out of the annuity.
this is for a joint plan
That's just my opinion and my way of doing things.
Have a nice day!
mathjak107
Well-known Member
- Location
- bayside ,queens , ny
you need to do your own homework , but never use the company literature . because they will never give you a spread sheet like the above . the fact is once you get away from an spia ( single premium immediate annuity ) the products are complex ... most will not understand fully how they work . just like the above . they think they are getting 5.50% and while they are , the company restricts you to getting 1/10% a year of that so it is actually less , but still not to shabby.
you will never see spia's at a dinner .. those are bought not sold .. they are extremely low cost and require no sales pitch .
however there are many products like the prudential one above which are pretty decent .. they may work out to less then you thought you were getting but certainly no one is fleeced and it still is a better deal in fixed income then you can get from bonds and cd's .
annuities pay way more because they invest in something you can't . dead bodies ... those who die pay for those who live so there are mortality credits involved that bolster the cash flow
Well, THAT certainly makes me feel better
Yup, that's almost the exact spread sheet I saw at the dinner
It was hard not to become incredulous at how little the return, and how long your money is tied up
Heh, causing one to feel guilty for eating an offered dinner and not buying product is the lowest ploy of the low.
Hell, I'm so disgusted, I don't want to even be in the same room with someone that uses this to sell their grave robbing wares.
I'll buy my own steak here on out
Thank you for the enlightenment
mathjak107
Well-known Member
- Location
- bayside ,queens , ny
how little the return is ? how about how much the cash flow is ... an annuity is no more about return then a pension is .. you can not calculate a return until you die .
so if you are going to chastise a product at least understand it .
the annuity certainly gives you a higher rate of cash flow then you can safely draw from say a 50/50 portfolio where safely you can start at 4% .
so the bond side of a portfolio shared with an spia can be a powerful combo to your equities .
the best results come from partial annuitization and equites.
assuming a 50/50 mix of cash and bonds , you can see drawing 7k a year from an spia a year from 100k in cash and bonds would be down to zero in just a bunch of years needing refilling from stocks.. even just taking the standard 4% inflation adjusted would spend the bond/ cash side of things to zero at a point .
as you spend down a portfolio based on equities /bonds /cash each year the bond/cash side produces less and less .
the annuity income is never reduced by the years prior spending and goes on forever requiring less equities to be sold for inflation adjusting and spending ..
that is the power in using these annuity products.
they provide higher rates of cash flow which require less equities to be sold over time to keep refilling spending. spending down will always deplete your cash and bond buckets so that money is gone no matter what . you just refill from equities as it runs low .
the annuity provides a floor that does not diminish as you spend down so it takes less refilling by selling equities later .
it is never about return any more then if you had paid in to a contributory pension at work like many plans are . it is about cash flow and how you use that cash flow to reduce equity selling which provides higher returns if you can limit the refilling of bonds and cash longer ..
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Oh, I fully understand
I guess I'm comparing the return to buying/selling properties
I can buy and acre for $10K, build a little cabin for $5K
Sell it for $30K
Within a year
Why would I ever care to invest in annuities? (steak or no steak)
mathjak107
Well-known Member
- Location
- bayside ,queens , ny
stop with your nonsense ... we are talking about annuities which are proxies for bonds and cash used to provide spending money .. it is not a proxy for the investment side ...the investment side gets put in whatever you want . most retirees are not going to be 100% equities or land. they will have bonds and cash and annuities are part of that budget if you use them.
perhaps a basic retirement planning course is a good idea , before these silly comments .
No nonsense
Just sense
Your kind will never....ever ever ever, tie up my money
That....is the bottom line