An Organic Foods Question

Mike

Mike

Well-known Member
Location
London
I know nothing about organic food other than what I
thought that it meant. Since it arrived, I always thought
that nothing was done to it, straight from, the Ground,
the Sea, or the Air, then to the fridge or oven, with no
adulteration on the journey, nothing other than what it
is no added anything or processes.

Imagine my surprise, when I bought a large container of
full milk from Marks & Spencer on Friday, I don't normally
buy Organic and in this instance, it was a mistake, I went
for the "longest date", which was the 12th of March.

This morning, out of curiosity, I decided to read the ingredients,
there was only one as expected, but with a story behind it,
it was, "Homogenised & Pasteurised" and the only thing,Organic,
that I could see was that the cows, that produced it were fed in a,
"for Organic Purposes", pasture, it had never been fertilised with
chemicals.

Maybe I am wrong and it is OK to Homogenise and Pasteurise
milk, but still call it Organic.

Do any of you know the rules of Organics and have an answer?

Mike.
 

Big dairy producers favour homogenization because it allows them to create a uniform product from the milk of many different herds of cows, makes it easier to filter that milk into the different fat percentages (whole, 2%, and skim), and leads to a longer overall shelf life. While the process does not involve additives or chemical treatments, homogenization is sometimes criticized for altering the ways our bodies absorb milk fat (though there are no legitimate medical findings to support these claims).

​

Raw milk is milk as you get directly from an animal; it has not been pasteurized, homogenized, or otherwise altered in any way. The conversation around whether raw milk is safe for human consumption is perhaps the most fraught question facing milk consumers. Both the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) warn that drinking raw milk can lead to serious health risks. According to the FDA, unpasteurized milk can carry bacteria that causes multiple foodborne illnesses, in addition to health complications as extreme as kidney failure, further claiming that children, expectant mothers, and the elderly are especially susceptible to being affected. This is why pasteurization was invented in the first place: to eliminate the possibly harmful bacteria found in raw milk.


Both milks are fresh and pasteurized. The only difference is that organic milk is from cows, who are not injected with anti-biotics. Regular milk is from cows, who may have been injected with anti-biotics but within limits/standards.

From the web...
 
I think organic means grown without the use of pesticides. Probably something else also. I do know you pay more for some products.

Our largest grocery chain features what is called Naturally Imperfect fruits and veggies. They may be misshapen or have a small spot on them. A bargain price too.
 

Many people are concerned about the amount of pesticides, antibiotics and other unnatural chemicals in our food. 'Organic' foods are produced without the use of such things. I think you are confusing 'organic' with 'raw'. Raw, untreated milk used to have a green top on the bottle (in England anyway). I don't know if this type of milk is still available as the risk of TB is still around.
 
By law (US) cows that produce organic milk are supposed to spend a certain amount of time outside on pasture. Not that is it always true. They are supposed to get 30% of their diet from fresh, foraged grass. Due to weather in certain areas I don't see how they can do that all the time.
 
All food is organic, except maybe dirt... That's the scientific definition.

We tend to use organic to mean things grown with few manmade chemicals and other "natural" things.

I almost always eat organic food by the scientific definition. Rarely am will to spend more for what is labeled as "organic" in the stores. However I do like fresh things, from our garden or local farms.

An opinion from a real expert against "organic" foods: https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/...ect-the-health-of-low-income-populations.html
 
Alligatorob said:
All food is organic, except maybe dirt... That's the scientific definition.

We tend to use organic to mean things grown with few manmade chemicals and other "natural" things.
Click to expand...
True enough. We're not talking about "inorganic" materials like metal.

But regarding food, at least in the U.S. (and, I believe, in Canada), there is a legal definition of Organic that goes beyond the purely scientific definition. You can't legally just slap an "organic" label on something. The USDA is very specific about this.

Again, see this link to the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Organic Certification and Accreditation page:
https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/organic-certification
 
Devi said:
But regarding food, at least in the U.S. (and, I believe, in Canada), there is a legal definition of Organic that goes beyond the purely scientific definition. You can't legally just slap an "organic" label on something. The USDA is very specific about this.
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You are right of course. Guess I am a bit of a skeptic as to it's value. Beyond marketing and a profitable business for the "Organic Certifying Agents" ( https://www.ams.usda.gov/resources/organic-certifying-agents ) anyway.
 
I understand, @Alligatorob. Thing is, for us, organic food is pretty much untampered with. Not sprayed with toxic chemicals. For us, especially as our bodies get older, we're trying to stay away from stuff that causes more problems, and that includes eating pesticides and herbicides. That stuff doesn't all just wash away.

Someone once said to me that organic food costs what it does because it takes more effort to grow it (or raise it). Regular food is the cheap stuff.

And, that said, I do what I believe. Not trying to enforce my opinions on anyone.
 
Devi said:
I understand, @Alligatorob. Thing is, for us, organic food is pretty much untampered with. Not sprayed with toxic chemicals. For us, especially as our bodies get older, we're trying to stay away from stuff that causes more problems, and that includes eating pesticides and herbicides. That stuff doesn't all just wash away.
Click to expand...
If you look at the link I provided above or other work by Bruce Ames you will find the counter argument to that. Ames is a very well known biochemist/toxicologist who spent most of his career at UC Berkeley. Amongst other things makes the case that plants not sprayed with pesticides create their own toxins in response to stress from insect and pest attack. And those natural toxins can be as bad or worse for us than the pesticides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Ames

I am not sure who is right on this one, so being ambivalent I go with cheap or locally available fresh, but don't pay more for the "organic" label.
 
I accept that no chemical assistance is allowed, but I come back
to any Process, that is done, I know why it is pasteurised, but why,
to kill any germs it has to be heated to above 60C, that sure will
change the structure of the milk, slightly warmer and it will be
Long Life milk.

I remember a few years ago, seeing in a Supermarket, "Organic
Prawns", or Shrimps you call them in America, this made me smile,
who checked that the sea was in an organic state, I wondered.

Mike.
 
After some studying about the subject, it seems that
anything to with animals, is not how the product is
treated after it is obtained, but is more to do with
the condition, that it lives in and the quality of the
food that it has.

Mike.
 
Mike said:
Prawns", or Shrimps you call them in America, this made me smile
Click to expand...
In the parts of the US where I have lived shrimp is both singular and plural. Shrimps refers to multiple shrimp species, not how many you have. We also use prawn or prawns, it tends to refer to larger shrimp. Another example of a people separated by a common language...
Mike said:
who checked that the sea was in an organic state, I wondered
Click to expand...
Good question the ocean is mostly water with some salt, all inorganics. On a % basis very little organic, but the organic parts taste better.
 
You forgot about all the plastic, industrial waste and
oil spillage into the sea, Alligatorob, I know that they
contribute a small % of polluting, but there seems to
be a new report every day, these reports must duplicate
all round the World.

Still might not be enough.

Mike.
 
I read a while back somewhere that, even though it says Organic there is still a certain percentage of pesticides on fruits and vegetables so you need to wash them! The standards used to allow use of the Organic label is not all inclusive....it's not 100% free of pesticides. "Organic" means the producer must comply with less toxins than what is considered the threshold of "safe".
 
Don M. said:
About the ONLY food I trust to be "organic" is the vegetables I grow in my garden.
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You're probably right about that Don but you might want to test your soil because you may need to use organic soil and organic fertilizer. My son-in-law hired a landscaper to put grass in. Dogs like to eat grass sometimes because it helps their digestive system but instead it was causing his dogs to be sick....or at least that's my guess.

When I visited with my dogs they got sick too after eating some grass. I asked him if their landscaper was using organic fertilizer. He said, "no but it doesn't matter because the rain washes it down into the soil". I said "yes, but then the roots soak it up and carry it up throughout the plant"...spoken like a true mother-in-law...I think I overstepped. A cool breeze blew through the air šŸ˜Š
 
I buy somethings organic, mostly produce. In part to help out smaller farming endeavors. Not a big fan of huge agribusiness. I feel one of the better things we could do is break up these giants, and incentivize going back to smaller scale farming, and more sustainable methods, creating new career paths, more jobs, and healthier products, but that's a tough nut to crack. Like many things, just too much money, and political clout involved. Not to mention the involvement of the big chemical companies that get rich poisoning the ground, air, and aquifers, or whats left of them.
 
Devi said:
Re organic food, last I recall, the food had to be grown on land that hasn't had pesticides or herbicides used on it for a certain number of years, and isn't next to land that's getting sprayed. Here's a link to the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Organic Certification and Accreditation page:
https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/organic-certification
Click to expand...
Here it takes five years to earn a ā€œCertified Organicā€ classification.

During our limited summer season for the Farmersā€™ Market, Iā€™m willing to pay more for fresh produce, often organic. Iā€™ve got to know many of the vendors and their values, even if not selling organic. Vegetables picked yesterday are better than the organic ones shipped into the grocery stores.

In the winter I look at the condition of the vegetables. The other day the bag of organic carrots was pathetic, the regular ones were just mediocre.
 
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Lara said:
You're probably right about that Don but you might want to test your soil because you may need to use organic soil and organic fertilizer.
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I don't use Any "fertilizer".....either in the garden, or the yard. We live in the boondocks, in a lush forest, and I let "nature" supply the nutrients. I let the grass clippings "rot" in the yard, and I blow the leaves into a large pile at the edge of the yard...where they eventually become "mulch". We have a big outdoor wood furnace that reduces our Winter heating bills substantially, and I spread some of the ashes from it into the garden...which adds a bunch of "carbon" to the soil.
The grass grows nicely, and the garden gives us a bunch of good vegetables....cucumbers, cantaloupe, tomatoes, etc., About the Only thing "negative" about not using any "supplements" is that the weeds grow profusely in the garden, so I get plenty of Summer exercise hoeing and/or pulling the weeds.
I have a "soil tester", and it shows the soil to be a bit "acidic"...so every couple of years I buy a sack of Lime from the farm supply store in town and spread that in the Fall. By the following Spring, the soil is fairly balanced again, and ready to till and plant.
 
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Wow @Don M. ,that's an impressive post!! I'm going to save it.

Just curious...do you have any bees? I used to have a potted garden on my deck but the zucchini flowers lost their ability to produce zucchini when the bees stopped coming. The flowers are edible so I tried filling them with a cream cheese mixture which defeated the purpose of eating healthy and didn't taste all that great. Well, thank you for the tips!
 
Lara said:
Wow @Don M. ,that's an impressive post!! I'm going to save it.

Just curious...do you have any bees?
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Yes, we have bee's....mostly yellowjackets...and wasps. When the garden is blooming, they are all over the "buds". I have to be careful when working outdoors in the Summer...so I don't get stung. I keep a good supply of insect repellant (Deet), and spray myself before I venture into the garden or the forest.
I usually wind up with an excess of cucumbers and cantaloupe every year, so I give the kids/grandkids some, and take the excess up to the local Senior Home in town.
 
I don't buy "Organic" anything. We have no way of knowing if anything is organic or not.
"Whole Foods" paid a big fine for selling high-priced produce labeled "Organic" when it wasn't. A company secretly purchased their "Organic" produce & tested it & found that it wasn't.
I'm sure other retailers have done the same.
 

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