And Yet Again.. No Indictment..

rkunsaw said:
I have yet to hear why the man died. Maybe he had a medical problem that caused him to die where the chokehold the policeman used would not have caused death in a healthy person. That is the only reason I can think of for no indictment.

Once again people are judging the grand jury without all the evidence.
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That would be a typical "Blame the victim" reason. ... Not unlike... "If she didn't wear that outfit.. she wouldn't have been raped" Women are sick of it... and Minorities are sick of it.
 

QuickSilver said:
That would be a typical "Blame the victim" reason. ... Not unlike... "If she didn't wear that outfit.. she wouldn't have been raped" Women are sick of it... and Minorities are sick of it.
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I'm not blaming the victim at all. I'm simply wondering what caused his death. Any reasonable person would want to know all the facts before jumping to conclusions based on their own prejudices.
 
Looks like the 'chokehold' was prohibited for good reason.

QS, your idea of an independent prosecutor for cop cases is a good one.
 

rkunsaw said:
I have yet to hear why the man died. Maybe he had a medical problem that caused him to die where the chokehold the policeman used would not have caused death in a healthy person. That is the only reason I can think of for no indictment.

Once again people are judging the grand jury without all the evidence.
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When I was a teenager, a guy put a chokehold on me (for fun???) and I still have the scar on my lip to this day from hitting the pavement with my face.
Considering that the chokehold was apparently banned twenty years ago(?), we should all be concerned that the police are willing to use a maneuver that was deemed that dangerous that they got rid of it.
 
rkunsaw said:
I'm not blaming the victim at all. I'm simply wondering what caused his death. Any reasonable person would want to know all the facts before jumping to conclusions based on their own prejudices.
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Yes... IMO the fact that he was overweight, and had asthma most certainly caused him to die.. However, after which time out of the eleven times he told them he couldn't breathe should the cops have let up? After the first? the third? the Seventh? IMO it's not reasonable at all to blame his state of health for his death. That amount of force was ridiculous and unnecessary.
 
Debby said:
When I was a teenager, a guy put a chokehold on me (for fun???) and I still have the scar on my lip to this day from hitting the pavement with my face.
Considering that the chokehold was apparently banned twenty years ago(?), we should all be concerned that the police are willing to use a maneuver that was deemed that dangerous that they got rid of it.
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IMO, this all goes back to the view cops (and whites) seem to have about Black men... Particularly BIG Black men. It seems they are attributed with some sort of super human... or even animalistic sort of strength.. As evidenced by Daren Wilsons description of Michael Brown as Hulk Hogan.. or a demon. Eric Garner was a big man... he was a big FAT man in ill health.. doing that to him based on some stereotypical view of Black strength is racist. It's used to scare Whites... especially White Jurors.
 
Butterfly said:
Perhaps we need to just abolish the grand jury system and just go to preliminary hearings in open court instead. I'm not sure about this, but I think here they have the choice of a grand jury or a preliminary hearing.

I served on a grand jury for six months (yup, that's how they do it here, six months, three days a week -- your employer can't fire you for having to serve) not too long ago. We heard about a zillion cases -- most of them very small stuff, and we heard several in one day.

The grand jury is a secret proceeding. All of what I'm saying if about how it is done HERE, it may vary elsewhere. The GJ DOES NOT decide guilt or innocence, only whether, based on the information provided to it by the prosecution, and based on the statutory definition of the crime in question, there has been a crime committed and whether there appears to be evidence to charge the defendant with the crime. No defense case is presented. Testimony was usually limited to the arresting officer and maybe the victim. The defendant has the right to make a statement, and may bring his attorney into the proceedings, but the attorney cannot speak. ONLY the prosecutor presents his case, no defense is presented.

So don't crucify the poor grand jury -- they ONLY could decide based on what was before them and (just like a regular jury) could not depend on anything outside what was put before them in the proceedings or on their personal prejudices or feelings.
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Yep, jumping right to a trial might help. But you still have show evidence of a crime and a person might have done it. Although a trial is supposed to bring out the truth they weren't ment for investigations, the police and prosecutor are responsible for that. You don't want gratuitous or frivolous prosecutions either. The problem with many trials is that prosecutors over charge for the evidence they have because they want to leverage the defendant into a plea deal. Also don't forget in this case the cop violated police procedure. A choke hold is legal tactic although not used/recommended by many police experts including the NYPD. A simple winnable trial here would've been a manslaughter charge. A civil lawsuit should take care of the most of the officers on the scene. Some even want the EMS techs prosecuted.

I think too many want immediate justice with investigations starting before autopsies and forensic evidence are in and all witnesses interviewed. I think they quietly should've fired the cop then prosecuted him for manslaughter because a police inquiry could've been used for some evidence. There needs to be stronger civilian review boards or civilians sitting in on internal police investigations as well but too many would turn their position into a political pulpit.
 
All these negative responses to the Grand Jury and what else has happened just seem to be nothing compared to what has happened within minutes to hours later after this persons death.

Suddenly, in many locations around the country we have large mobs, blocking roads, chanting in unison, mixed crowds and not just blacks as some blacks sure don't think all is wrong with what has unfortunately happened. It seems to me more like the far, far, far left run ways of slowly destroying our law driven US ways of living and turning the US into nothing more than a place to do as you wish as no laws will be respected any more.

Some on this thread seem to think that no matter what has happened, who made decisions, it is just not the way they think this country should go. There are ways to change all that with out such unlikely ways as ignoring courtesy to those attempting to uphold our laws and pushing for changes from using our ongoing legal systems that have worked well for over 200 years. Want changes? Then try to get a ballot run that will allow the changes needed. Running wildly in many directions will not bring the US anything but continued confusion and ever greater law breaking individuals and groups.

I have seen several posts on this thread that show some smarts about how our system is supposed to work and saying so. I have also seen several posts on this thread that seem to show nothing of intelligence but lots of confused and arrogant comments do occur. Far too much knee jerk talk about right and wrong happening on this thread. As I said in previous posts, I think all those radicals that march in groups and block sidewalks and streets and roads all need to be arrested, written up for records, fined from small to large amounts, any showing leadership should be jailed for encouraging the masses to break laws. In other words, we need to tramp down a bit on law breakers to try to end such nonsense in the US. Want to do parades? Then go get a parade permit and follow instructions.
 
BobF said:
All these negative responses to the Grand Jury and what else has happened just seem to be nothing compared to what has happened within minutes to hours later after this persons death.

Suddenly, in many locations around the country we have large mobs, blocking roads, chanting in unison, mixed crowds and not just blacks as some blacks sure don't think all is wrong with what has unfortunately happened. It seems to me more like the far, far, far left run ways of slowly destroying our law driven US ways of living and turning the US into nothing more than a place to do as you wish as no laws will be respected any more.

Some on this thread seem to think that no matter what has happened, who made decisions, it is just not the way they think this country should go. There are ways to change all that with out such unlikely ways as ignoring courtesy to those attempting to uphold our laws and pushing for changes from using our ongoing legal systems that have worked well for over 200 years. Want changes? Then try to get a ballot run that will allow the changes needed. Running wildly in many directions will not bring the US anything but continued confusion and ever greater law breaking individuals and groups.

I have seen several posts on this thread that show some smarts about how our system is supposed to work and saying so. I have also seen several posts on this thread that seem to show nothing of intelligence but lots of confused and arrogant comments do occur. Far too much knee jerk talk about right and wrong happening on this thread. As I said in previous posts, I think all those radicals that march in groups and block sidewalks and streets and roads all need to be arrested, written up for records, fined from small to large amounts, any showing leadership should be jailed for encouraging the masses to break laws. In other words, we need to tramp down a bit on law breakers to try to end such nonsense in the US. Want to do parades? Then go get a parade permit and follow instructions.
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True, the responses are ignorant especially since they are frequently filled with professional protestors and/or political hack hangers on. You also have those living their local lives vicariously through others and national current events. And there are those that don't understand the criminal justice and/or court system let alone respect it.

But I can understand personal opinion outrage, not protest but an emotional personal response which should NOT include vandalism, mayhem or messing with others that having nothing to do with the events and/or the protestors lives-this is where these protestors will lose it because by messing with innocent civilians and bystanders they lose support for their cause. All this "we will make others aware" as in "we will ram this issue down your throat like it or not" is pure ignorance. Do they think the average commuter trying to get home from work or do errands gives two craps about events and people they have nothing to do with. In some cities these "pro" testors vandalized holiday displays and interrupted various events. Yeh that recruitment tool will work, ooops, my mistake they only want to let the world know where they stand on politically correct issue to feed their narcissism. In meantime most of these losers won't write letters , vote or protest/contest the routine seemingly minor legislation & policy that creates these incidents and/or festers corruption.
 
QuickSilver said:
IMO, this all goes back to the view cops (and whites) seem to have about Black men... Particularly BIG Black men. It seems they are attributed with some sort of super human... or even animalistic sort of strength.. As evidenced by Daren Wilsons description of Michael Brown as Hulk Hogan.. or a demon. Eric Garner was a big man... he was a big FAT man in ill health.. doing that to him based on some stereotypical view of Black strength is racist. It's used to scare Whites... especially White Jurors.
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...................

I certainly do not see the US as described at all. Over the years, and very recently, we have had little reason to hate the blacks of the US. We have not only been good about voting in blacks to our government positions in the major US government but also into state positions and local cities and towns positions. Blacks voted in to trusting government positions about the country. We have had, and still do have, a black President. Several positions have been assigned to blacks in both the Republican and Democrat party. I do not see the current, and recent, ways of not being ready and willing to have the blacks also lead this country on to success. All this blaming the whites for what is happening to the blacks is mistaken and should not be happening at all.

We have blacks in our school systems for lower and higher education and training. We have blacks in our entertainment systems and professional sports too. I fail to see all this personal hatred that keeps appearing so often. The only place I see bias is in some of the articles about recent events and some who use those comments to be facts, when actually they are neither true or honest. The intelligent and educated ones of the black communities know for sure they have not been stopped from moving forward and learning and operating freely. More blacks should do so and hopefully they can encourage more blacks to improve themselves and other blacks as well.

The ones that are really causing the US to have problems are the blacks, whites, orientals, middle eastern ones, that want to come to the US to sit on their behinds and just demand that the government has to take care of them. To much of that already. And far too many of those already citizens for hundreds of years that also want to just do the minimum while living here and expecting the government hand outs to be so good they can live that way. Bill Clinton had a good way to take care of that problem by shutting down how long the people could collect welfare money. He had a lot of former welfare folks that had gone forward and found jobs and became self sufficient.
 
A 300 lb man RESISTING arrest. Gee, what do officers do when someone is RESISTING arrest? Not saying the officer was right for what he did, but this BIG dude sure wasn't cooperating in any way!
 
Oh come on.... He had his hands up and he was asking to be left alone... He wasn't pushing or shoving or running... RESISTING is a real stretch.. The man was well known to the cops.. they KNEW he wasn't dangerous... and the KNEW he wasn't armed.... they had arrested him 31 times before. Were they just tired of busting the poor guy for a minor offense and decided they would just get rid of him PERMANENTLY? I guess selling single cigarettes carries a death sentence now?
 
When they say cigars and cigarettes kill, I guess they really mean it now. At least the end result is the same, a life lost senselessly.
 
I think there's enough people with open minds who might look into the real problem here, and make some positive changes, I think the President is beginning to get some things done, so these senseless killings don't continue endlessly. Cameras and some retraining is a start.
 
Here is the definition of resisting arrest -- from Section 205 of the New York Penal Code:

S 205.30 Resisting arrest.
A person is guilty of resisting arrest when he intentionally prevents
or attempts to prevent a police officer or peace officer from effecting
an authorized arrest of himself or another person.
 
SeaBreeze said:
I think there's enough people with open minds who might look into the real problem here, and make some positive changes, I think the President is beginning to get some things done, so these senseless killings don't continue endlessly. Cameras and some retraining is a start.
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There are too many issues in law enforcement and the criminal justice system for a couple of meetings and some reactionary feel good legislation to make significant changes. But hopefully with the laser focus on police and these issues right now many departments and officers will change their mindset on their own. Personally I don't want the President, a federal official making administrative policy for local police departments. He can recommend a minimum of standards in which a local department can follow but I really don't want to see federal officials micro managing local law enforcement or court systems other make sure they follow the constitution/bill of rights etc. These problems were decades in the making and it will take time to change. Same for many of the protestors many of whom are venting a lifetime of issues out in public frequently on innocent and/or unassociated civilians.

I hope the civil lawsuit makes it to trial to get testimony of the mindset, training and policies of the NYPD to why they heck so many civilians have been hurt or killed over the last several years. Don't forget innocent civilians where shot several times over the last year I think at the Empire State building and the ax man attack among others. It's seems like they've been taught better safe than sorry but the job isn't about protecting the officer it's about protecting the public. If an officer is that scared of dying then don't become police.
 
Well, you see it your way, but the video shows it somewhat different. The officers didn't tackle this guy for nothing! The dude didn't want to be arrested and that's what the beginning of the video showed. Appeared that he was arguing with the officers and a person just doesn't want to do that!

Anyway, I didn't join this forum to argue with folks. Just like with the situation of Brown, you have your thoughts and others, like myself, have our thoughts. I have come to find out that everyone in this forum is nice, and, although we disagree, I still see you as a very nice person. Heck, you helped me with my Medicare Supplement decision and I thank you for that!

Anyway, I am a big supporter of law enforcement and so are three guys I know that live here. One is a patrol officer, another is a Customs Officer and the other is an Army MP.

So, I will now kindly "bow out" of this Thread. Bye, Bye!!

QuickSilver said:
Oh come on.... He had his hands up and he was asking to be left alone... He wasn't pushing or shoving or running... RESISTING is a real stretch.. The man was well known to the cops.. they KNEW he wasn't dangerous... and the KNEW he wasn't armed.... they had arrested him 31 times before. Were they just tired of busting the poor guy for a minor offense and decided they would just get rid of him PERMANENTLY? I guess selling single cigarettes carries a death sentence now?
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