Boeing profit at stake as rainmaker 737 Max takes to skies

I

imp

Senior Member
Boeing has 3,000 advance orders for this new plane! I think that makes it their most successful airplane yet. What a company! imp

"Chicago-based Boeing Co.'s newest 737 jetliner gunned its engines and headed into rain-streaked skies Friday, with profit and pride riding on its wings.
The aerospace company's fortunes depend on a smooth market debut for the 737 Max next year with initial customer Southwest Airlines.

More than 60 customers of the 737 were on hand for the initial flight of the plane, christened "The Spirit of Renton," a reference to the Seattle suburb where Boeing has made single- aisle planes since the 1950s.
"It's really humbling to think about the confidence they've entrusted in us," said Keith Leverkuhn, a Boeing vice president and general manager of the 737 program.

"The plane's first flight, a key milestone, is emotional for the workers who devoted years to the 737 program, and heart- pounding for executives who have promised that the single-aisle jet will meet performance and deadline targets."

"The Max is already Boeing's all-time best-seller, with 3,072 orders. It's the latest model in the narrow-body family that is the planemaker's largest source of profit, and arguably its most valuable asset. The total backlog of unfilled 737 orders is valued at about $200 billion, according to Bloomberg Intelligence estimates."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-boeing-737-max-20160129-story.html




 

Boeing is an amazing company. I think one of the reasons why orders are down is because the top airlines have been replacing older aircraft the last 8-10 years and have been able to do so because they have been finally making money and are able to reinvest back into their companies. Most of the top 3-4 airlines in the U.S (Delta, United, Southwest and American and to some degree, Jet Blue) have much newer fleets, so yeah, production would slow down. Foreign airlines go about 50-50 between Airbus and Boeing, but I have always heard that the Oriental airline companies had preferred Boeing, even though they do fly their share of Airbus's. I also remember reading that Iran had placed a huge order with Airbus just a few years back. I flew on an Allegiant last year and it was an old MD-80 series, (previously owned by Delta), that shook, rattled and rolled all the way from Pennsylvania to Florida. It was one of the few times that as a passenger, I was nervous. The vibration was mystifying.

Competition is good and the airlines are finally realizing that they need to plan for the future by flying lower cost airplanes that are more fuel efficient. Safety is still the number one concern at every airline here in the U.S.
 
If you have ever noticed that on most large electrical items the more efficient the item is rated, the bigger it is. Take notice sometime to an older style central air conditioning unit sitting out in back or on the side of a home. Then, look at a newer unit that has replaced the older unit. Because the units must cool themselves they have larger fan blades and the case itself is also larger to allow for more air flow.

I have not checked the specs on the engines from the old 737-8 to the new 737-Max, so it very well may be a larger engine that produces more thrust. The new plane may also carry more passengers and have allowances to carry more weight, including freight and mail, so more thrust is likely.

I can't explain to anyone how exhilarating it is to be speeding down the runway to reach V1 speed and hear the word, "Rotate.". I always had that flutter in my tummy even on the day that I retired. An older pilot that I worked with in my early years once told me that when I stopped feeling that flutter, it will be a sign for me to stop flying.
 
About the Engines

I noticed years back when Southwest Air had the 2nd. or 3rd. versions of the 737 all over the place in Phoenix, the bottom edges of the opening of the engines was rather flattened, not forming a perfect circle. Knowing the fan blades have to spin in a circle, I figured the streamlining of the outer skin was made that way to gain a bit more ground clearance. Looking at the OP pic, it kinda looks like the entire bottom surface of the engines is rather flattened on the new MAX.

A former supervisor of mine, a Mechanical Engineer, one of the best I have ever known, told me a lot about modern aircraft engineering, how things work. At a recent air show here in Bullhead City, I had the chance to get underneath some big planes, inspect the landing gear and engines, which had some of their coverings removed. The innumerable hydraulic lines and wiring can only be described as looking like a bowl of spaghetti!

The main landing gear is mounted on a huge, strong, hydraulic cylinder with a rather short piston stroke length, maybe 6 inches. This cylinder acts as a shock absorber when the plane touches down, but as my boss explained, it performs another function rarely discussed. During the take-off roll, as more and more weight is transferred from the wheel assemblies to the wings, a critical instant occurs just as the entire weight of the plane is transferred to the wings: the wings are then carrying the plane. During that instant, the cylinder just described, lifts the wheels off the ground, completing that transfer of weight. Imagining a 700,000 pound hulk like a 747 becoming airborne, over the space of only a few seconds time, represents a mind-boggling feat to this Engineer! imp
 
imp said:
I noticed years back when Southwest Air had the 2nd. or 3rd. versions of the 737 all over the place in Phoenix, the bottom edges of the opening of the engines was rather flattened, not forming a perfect circle. Knowing the fan blades have to spin in a circle, I figured the streamlining of the outer skin was made that way to gain a bit more ground clearance. Looking at the OP pic, it kinda looks like the entire bottom surface of the engines is rather flattened on the new MAX.

A former supervisor of mine, a Mechanical Engineer, one of the best I have ever known, told me a lot about modern aircraft engineering, how things work. At a recent air show here in Bullhead City, I had the chance to get underneath some big planes, inspect the landing gear and engines, which had some of their coverings removed. The innumerable hydraulic lines and wiring can only be described as looking like a bowl of spaghetti!

The main landing gear is mounted on a huge, strong, hydraulic cylinder with a rather short piston stroke length, maybe 6 inches. This cylinder acts as a shock absorber when the plane touches down, but as my boss explained, it performs another function rarely discussed. During the take-off roll, as more and more weight is transferred from the wheel assemblies to the wings, a critical instant occurs just as the entire weight of the plane is transferred to the wings: the wings are then carrying the plane. During that instant, the cylinder just described, lifts the wheels off the ground, completing that transfer of weight. Imagining a 700,000 pound hulk like a 747 becoming airborne, over the space of only a few seconds time, represents a mind-boggling feat to this Engineer! imp
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It is definitely a mind boggling feat that the wings could handle the weight of the plane and any vibration or movement the engines might cause. It's almost if the plane sits on the wings. The wings would need most of the strength and flexibility I guess.
 
oldman said:
I flew on an Allegiant last year and it was an old MD-80 series, (previously owned by Delta), that shook, rattled and rolled all the way from Pennsylvania to Florida. It was one of the few times that as a passenger, I was nervous. The vibration was mystifying.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, the first two MD-80 prototypes crash-landed during initial test-flights. At that point, I figgered, that's the end of 'em. Nope, went on to build and fly lots of them. My wife flies Allegiant to Indiana because their low fare is all we can afford. Bad reputation, but she has been happy so far. Last trip was out of Mesa Airport (AZ), a brand-new facility used basically only by Allegiant. Nice, modern, fast moving, but a hell of a long drive from here.

Interesting twist at Mesa in parking fees. Pullin, a machine issues a quarter-sized plastic token, bright yellow, you carry it with you, then when ready to leave, insert it in a machine in the terminal building which calculates the fee, based on time of issue, takes yer dough, drops the re-programmed token back out (or another), ya carry it to yer car, pull up to the exit machine, drop the token in, and if all has been paid, the gate raises up! No attendants anywhere, hence no payroll. Nifty! imp
 
imp said:
I noticed years back when Southwest Air had the 2nd. or 3rd. versions of the 737 all over the place in Phoenix, the bottom edges of the opening of the engines was rather flattened, not forming a perfect circle. Knowing the fan blades have to spin in a circle, I figured the streamlining of the outer skin was made that way to gain a bit more ground clearance. Looking at the OP pic, it kinda looks like the entire bottom surface of the engines is rather flattened on the new MAX.

A former supervisor of mine, a Mechanical Engineer, one of the best I have ever known, told me a lot about modern aircraft engineering, how things work. At a recent air show here in Bullhead City, I had the chance to get underneath some big planes, inspect the landing gear and engines, which had some of their coverings removed. The innumerable hydraulic lines and wiring can only be described as looking like a bowl of spaghetti!

The main landing gear is mounted on a huge, strong, hydraulic cylinder with a rather short piston stroke length, maybe 6 inches. This cylinder acts as a shock absorber when the plane touches down, but as my boss explained, it performs another function rarely discussed. During the take-off roll, as more and more weight is transferred from the wheel assemblies to the wings, a critical instant occurs just as the entire weight of the plane is transferred to the wings: the wings are then carrying the plane. During that instant, the cylinder just described, lifts the wheels off the ground, completing that transfer of weight. Imagining a 700,000 pound hulk like a 747 becoming airborne, over the space of only a few seconds time, represents a mind-boggling feat to this Engineer! imp
Click to expand...

I have to admit, imp, you may know more about the engineering aspect of planes than I do. Like a pilot once said when asked how does the autopilot work? He answered, "I really don't know. I just fly them and hope the light goes on when I turn on the AP."

However, I have been asked about the flat bottom on the engines many times and I have also inquired about this myself many years ago. The answer that I was given was that according to FAA regulations there must be "X" amount of ground clearance between the engines and the ground. The engines on the B-737 are larger than what they were initially designed to use. When the wing tanks are filled with fuel they can actually pull the wings down, thus, decreasing the amount of clearance between the engine and the ground. Contrary to popular belief, it has nothing to do with aerodynamics or lift.

As for the landing gear, I think that you have pretty well summed it up. When I visited the Everett plant many years ago now, I can remember the assembly crew installing the landing gear on the 767. It was a completed unit that was installed mainly by robotics. During our college classes in theory, we learned about the transference of weight and energy during takeoff. There is a correlation between the gear and the wings and I also remember the asst. professor speaking about that "exact moment" when the plane does lift off the ground how much energy is transferred from the gear to the wings. We are going way back now and I would have to look it up in my text books, but there is an actual formula used to figure how much energy is transferred and weight transferred and necessary to get the plane off the ground. A B-767 loaded averaged somewhere around 350,000 pounds + or - 50,000, depending on fuel, baggage, cargo, number of passengers, etc. For an uneventful takeoff, the weight in its entirety must be figured to have the correct takeoff (V1) speed. Too fast is much better than too slow. The idea is to gain lift immediately after the nose is rotated up by the pilot pulling back on the control column. The last thing a pilot wants to hear and feel is the stick shaker going off because it may be the last thing that he does hear and feel. Stalling an airplane due to slow takeoff (V1) speed and failing to gain lift is not what the ultimate goal is.

I did once or maybe more times hear how many miles of wiring are run throughout an airplanes. It is several miles. I think what has to be kept in mind is that each system on the aircraft has at least one backup system. Some systems have 2 and 3 backup systems. I sometimes look back just 25 years ago and compare the planes of today and then shake my head. It's amazing how far we have come in just 25 years. And, although we made progress starting from the first flight, the last 25 years have been the best with making advancements, both in engineering and safety. There are things on planes today that never existed back in the 70's or 80's. Many planes today now have surveillance systems so the pilots may monitor what's going on in the cargo bay. Sprinkler systems and cameras are being used due to prior accidents that we learned are necessary tools for the pilots to be able to 'see' into these otherwise, blind areas.

Great dialogue.
 
WhatInThe said:
It is definitely a mind boggling feat that the wings could handle the weight of the plane and any vibration or movement the engines might cause. It's almost if the plane sits on the wings. The wings would need most of the strength and flexibility I guess.
Click to expand...

Mind boggling to say the least. Back when Joe Sutter designed the B-747, Boeing made a mistake (my opinion) of giving the public a target date of when this plane would be first introduced and shown to the public, There was a second date of when the plane would actually be flown. This put Boeing under tremendous pressure. Even today, companies and even us as individuals do not like being put under time constraints or a given time when we must have our job completed, yet pilots due it all the time by having to meet schedules. Had the 747 not met their target dates, Boeing may have ended up bankrupt and the name "Boeing" would just be a name in history books.

Anyway, when the 747 made it's maiden flight, there was a tremendous amount of shudder felt throughout the plane. Joe knew that this had to be corrected before taking the plane to the Paris Airshow where all of the new aircraft was being shown. After several attempts to locate and correct this situation, it was finally determined that the wings needed to be redesigned. By slightly redesigning the shape of the wing. There may have been other improvements to fix this problem, but too many years have passed by for me to remember some things.

I received one of my periodicals in the mail just a few weeks ago and in that magazine was an article about the 747. According to Boeing, this year (2016), Boeing will begin to shut down production on the 747. Yes, the 747 has become a dinosaur in the age of aviation. With the increase in orders for the Airbus A-380, Boeing is being pressured to get the B-787-Dreamliner up to snuff. It is my goal to one day fly this magnificent plane. Although I am a retired United pilot, I would like to fly the 787 on Singapore Airlines, just to see and enjoy the pleasures of the many amenities that Singapore Air has in their plane compared to the other airlines.
 
imp said:
If I remember correctly, the first two MD-80 prototypes crash-landed during initial test-flights. At that point, I figgered, that's the end of 'em. Nope, went on to build and fly lots of them. My wife flies Allegiant to Indiana because their low fare is all we can afford. Bad reputation, but she has been happy so far. Last trip was out of Mesa Airport (AZ), a brand-new facility used basically only by Allegiant. Nice, modern, fast moving, but a hell of a long drive from here.

Interesting twist at Mesa in parking fees. Pullin, a machine issues a quarter-sized plastic token, bright yellow, you carry it with you, then when ready to leave, insert it in a machine in the terminal building which calculates the fee, based on time of issue, takes yer dough, drops the re-programmed token back out (or another), ya carry it to yer car, pull up to the exit machine, drop the token in, and if all has been paid, the gate raises up! No attendants anywhere, hence no payroll. Nifty! imp
Click to expand...

Many airports have pre pay parking where the consumer pays for his time before going to the car. AT BWI and IAD, the consumer gets a validated ticket with a bar code on it. Pull up to the booth slowly, show the bar code and keep rolling.

I have also flown Allegiant out of Harrisburg with direct non-stop service to Clearwater-St. Petersburg, Florida Airport (PIE). Allegiant is what I call a super low cost carrier. They charge for everything, including carry-on luggage and a can of pop or water. I believe the majority of their planes are the old MD-80's made by McDonnell Douglas, which is now owned by Boeing. I remember when the plane had issues with the screw that operated the horizontal stabilizer. The NTSB's investigation after the Alaska Airline's accident proved that just .15 cents worth of grease would have prevented the few accidents and many loss of lives attributed to this problem. After the Alaska Air accident, all MD-80's were grounded until the screws were checked, which I believe that others were found that were about to become another statistic.

Delta and American were the biggest U.S. users of the MD-80. Those problems are all now behind us now. The plane that I flew in shook and rattled the whole way from Harrisburg to Florida. I sat in the last seat of the half full plane and a Flight Attendant sat across from me. There was just a light snow falling just before takeoff and I have to give the pilot credit, he had the plane deiced just before takeoff. I thanked him for his safety concern when I exited the plane. Anyway, when one of the overhead bins popped open from the shaking, I asked the FA if this thing was going to stay together until we landed. His answer was, "I hope so." Not a typical answer from a FA.
 

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