'Canada' Loves Nazis?

Debby said:
Would you find it acceptable that those kind of people teach it in your schools? Or here's a question that sort of relates to the issue but on a more contemporary level, how does this relate to the issue of cyber bullying? Your child is getting vicious texts from someone that are threatening his life/happiness/safety.....is this 'acceptable' because of the requirement of freedom of speech? Can you impinge on that awful persons right to say what he is saying? What if he's hanging posters around the neighbourhood to the same effect that are causing your child untold distress? Are there any moral/ethical limits to this 'free speech'?
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I don't think any of those people are going to be hired as teachers in our schools to teach subjects like that. But, I think in colleges, if a teacher has an opinion on something that they wish to share with the class, it is permitted to provoke some thought on the topic. I think that a professor made some statements that were not favorable to America and its government, and there was some controversy about that, not sure what the result was, it was a long time ago.

If my child was personally getting vicious texts from someone threatening his safety or his life, it would be a criminal matter for sure. I also think it's the parents obligation to teach their children right from wrong, so that if they see or hear any Nazi related talk or Satanic propaganda, they will take it for what it's worth and not let it affect their personal lives.
 

We can all hope that people like James Keegstra don't get into our schools and teach our young people, but that's always a possibility.

In 1984, Keegstra was stripped of his teaching certificate and charged under the Criminal Code of Canada with "wilfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group" by teaching his social studies students that the Holocaust was a fraud and attributing various evil qualities to Jews. He thus described Jews to his pupils as "treacherous", "subversive", "sadistic", "money-loving", "power hungry" and "child killers". He taught his classes that the Jewish people seek to destroy Christianity and are responsible for depressions, anarchy, chaos, wars and revolution. According to Keegstra, the Jews "created the Holocaust to gain sympathy" and, in contrast to the open and honest Christians, were said to be deceptive, secretive and inherently evil.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Keegstra

Is that any different from cyber bullying except without the 'cyber'? That is the kind of law that we have in Canada, i.e. this kind of speech will not be tolerated in a country that protects the rights and freedoms of all. Because while you might teach your kids right from wrong, others might not and might even encourage that kind of attitude and when it perpetuated by a 'respected' authority figure, doesn't that further encourage children that thinking like that is acceptable?

So a kid hears it from his parents, then he hears it from the teacher......and then he goes out and acts out violently against the group or individual that he's heard about. Just like you can't yell fire in a theatre (what about your 'rights and freedoms') even for a joke, is it right to say the above knowing that some might act on your words? In my opinion, freedom of speech ends if you are saying things that encourage others to harm another person.
 
QuickSilver said:
I'm not sure what your concern is. No... Nazi's are not going to be invited into schools to teach Social Studies. No.. it's not ok to cyber bully and cause harm. Yes... it's ok to voice your political and religious beliefs in a open forum without prosecution. Theres a difference and perhaps I'm not adroit enough voice it, But I understand it and I would think someone as intellegent as you would also.
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People who have Nazi philosophies don't all have little Hitler mustaches and little swastika's sewn onto their shirts. How will you know until they start speaking. And if they begin teaching their philosophies to your kids, it seems to me that under your system, you don't have a lot of leeway. If you fire him for his ideas, then aren't you impinging on his right to speak freely?

Political beliefs, religious beliefs, very different from saying that someone is (all the things Keegstra said about the Jews) and deserve to suffer/die. I personally don't think there's any difference between what Keegstra did and someone using a computer to stalk and harass an individual. The methods are different, but the result is the same and sometimes is the cause of people dying or getting hurt.

Personally, I'm very glad that I live in a country where our Supreme Court enforces laws against hate speech. Unfortuantely I also have a government that doesn't apparently give a rat's behind about upholding the laws of our country.

Anyway ladies, folks, it's been interesting and an education. I had the opportunity to read up on the crap beliefs of a horrible group of people, learn about the hate laws in my own country and how our courts handle them and I learned the Einstein was a Jewish person and not a Nazi. I'm done with this, but thanks for your involvement.
 

Debby said:
Just a question Laurie, how much research have you actually done on Putin, Russia, their economy.....or are you just accepting what you hear on the BBC?

And are you in favour of governments ignoring the laws of their own land in favour of knee jerk emotionalism or a desire to suck up to other nations? Because that's what it sounds like.

(Sorry for the double post- must be ice on our antennae so my computer access seems to have slowed down. Didn't know it had already posted)
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Enough to know that Putin is an ex-head in the KGB, not generally known worldwide for their human rights record!

Russia's leaders have not changed much since Ivan the Terrible, and when considering Europe you must look back 500 years not 50, admittedly a difficult state of mind for most North Americans!
 
IMO... the only thing keeping Putin relevant these days is the fact that he can wave nuclear weapons around, and sells gas to Europe. His economy is pathetic and all he can do is dream of the days when the USSR was a world power.
 
So he was in the KGB. America has the CIA who have been involved in covert operations, undermining individuals and governments for decades, kidnapping people and torturing them, and dumping them in foreign countries, gun running to drug cartels......and George Bush Sr. was the Head of the CIA also.

Have you ever looked at America's record of abuses and support of abuses and base any moral judgement on that? Cambodia at the time was neutral and America dropped the equivalent of 5 Hiroshima's worth of bombs on them. 500,000 civilians were killed. And apparently wherever the B52's dropped bombs, it became ridiculously easy for the Khmer Rouge to get volunteers, and these people with Pol Pot at their head went on to kill about 1.5 million people.

After two years in power, the Khmer Rouge were ousted and then the USA and China and Britain supported Pol Pot in exile. And not only did they pay the buggers rent to the tune of $85 million, but they supported the Khmer Rouge government representatives as they occupied Cambodia's seat at the UN.

There's more to the story but I won't bore you with it. And this is only one of numerous conflicts. I am here comparing apples to apples while you are insisting that one of those 'apples' is an orange when the facts make it clear that they are both apples.

Of course I can't force you to believe any of this, but I know that if you really looked, you'd be amazed at how much of your thinking you would have to change.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-thatcher-helped-pol-pot/5330873
 
QuickSilver said:
IMO... the only thing keeping Putin relevant these days is the fact that he can wave nuclear weapons around, and sells gas to Europe. His economy is pathetic and all he can do is dream of the days when the USSR was a world power.
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Their economy was doing pretty good prior to the US and Canada and Europe and the Saudi's training their sites on them and screwing with their economy via sanctions and the manipulated oil price. As of 2012, their debt to GDP was .6 compared to the US's 9.2. Here's a link to a visual that shows the disparity really clearly: http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldn...The_Gold_&_Silver_Smash_-_Just_Read_This.html

But here's something to think about as we all rub our hands in glee at the low price of gas. OPEC (the Saudi's) are continuing to pump the same amount of oil despite the low prices but people are using less, so the surpluses are growing. If this price stays or falls even further, there will come a time when it begins to impact the American shale gas industry. Layoffs may be the result.

“Everybody is trying to put a very happy spin on their ability to weather $80 oil, but a lot of that is just smoke,” said
Daniel Dicker, president of MercBloc Wealth Management Solutions with
25 years’ experience trading crude on the New York Mercantile Exchange. “The shale revolution doesn’t work at $80, period.”

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...e-against-american-market-russian-tycoon-says

So that expert in crude is saying that your shale industry doesn't work at $80 and today it dropped to $69 and the Saudi's don't seem interested in boosting the price back up. So how long before this desire to destroy an economy of a country that did absolutely nothing begins to affect yours and mine?

As for the nuclear weapons, isn't that a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black?
 
Debby.... I don't know what your fascination with Putin is... but it certainly outshines my interest in debating him.. He's not someone I give a whole lot of thought to ... As for Nuclear weapons... yeah... we have a whole bunch.
 
QuickSilver said:
All this is important .... why? PS... no one really cares about Cambodia and Khmer Rouge any longer... We're into Muslims now..
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Pattern of behaviour, that's why it's important. And then there's Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Somalia, Columbia..........the question is, who will be next? Your military industry is making huuuuge profits on all of this, so for them, it's all good. Who do you think has the most powerful lobbyists working Washington? According to JP Morgan, shares in the military industry have risen 27,699% over the past 50 years.

I find it impossible to dismiss the murders of 2 million people casually.

I'm fascinated with the willingness of the West to get rid of governments and now that includes Russia. I've read several of his speeches and I've read about him from a couple of Americans who've had dealings with him for many years. He's intelligent, he's cultured, he's well educated and speaks Russian and German fluently and has learned to speak English well enough to make a speech in it.

His mother was a devout Orthodox Russian Christian and took him to church regularly as a child and he has strong religious beliefs. And with Putin at the helm and no country hounding them into a hole, he was improving the broken economy of that country in significant ways. And he's done this mostly without attacking other countries around the world and without the special benefit of holding the worlds reserve currency. From what I've read, he's done a good job and he's popular with Russians.

Those are the reasons that I find him interesting and the rabid and unfounded hatred of the majority of the world only makes him more interesting as I try to understand the human story that is going on here.
 
Debby said:
Pattern of behaviour, that's why it's important. And then there's Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Somalia, Columbia..........the question is, who will be next? Your military industry is making huuuuge profits on all of this, so for them, it's all good. Who do you think has the most powerful lobbyists working Washington? According to JP Morgan, shares in the military industry have risen 27,699% over the past 50 years.

I find it interesting that you seem to accept the whole Cambodia, Khmer Rouge tragedy rather casually. I find the very thought of the last moments of those (2 million civilians) totally appalling.
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I'm impressed by your passion about the whole Asian thing... I just don't have it. Good for you.
 
QuickSilver said:
I'm impressed by your passion about the whole Asian thing... I just don't have it. Good for you.
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You know when I read about these kinds of things, I can't help but put myself in the places of these tragic people. How would I feel if I had to live and die in that experience and the thought is so horrifying that I can't help but empathize.

Like I've said somewhere else here, I guess I'm an idealist and I look towards a world where we actually do care about the suffering of others and aren't satisfied to disregard it. A world where we've finally begun to evolve to a level where it is unthinkable to the majority of humanity that any should suffer and where we actively work to stop it.

The way I look at it, everything good started somewhere, with first one person, than another and another.....but it only happens when people talk about the bad things that are going on and point towards what is more beneficial to all. I can't do much, but I can talk about these things, I can be a voice in that change.

Humanity being what it is (greedy, greedy, greedy)improvements are slow in coming. But they do come. Once upon a time women couldn't vote, children had ropes tied around their waists so that if they died in the chimneys their bodies could be dragged back and if a man beat his wife and children to death, no one cared, and black people were slaves to rich landowners. But we don't do those things anymore. So there is hope.............but only if we talk about all these things. In the silence and darkness, evil thrives. That's just the way I feel.
 
Debby said:
If they are promoting their right to worship some non-existent entity under a full moon while dancing naked, then they have as much right as any Christian, Jew, Buddhist....but I think the minute that Satanists start to point to old ladies or old men or children or any groups of individuals as unworthy of life, et al, then their right to freely promulgate that violent hate speech becomes a non-starter.

From Wikipedia:
The racial policy of Nazi Germany was a set of policies and laws implemented by Nazi Germany, asserting the superiority of the "Aryan race", and based on a specific racist doctrine which claimed scientific legitimacy. It was combined with a eugenics programme that aimed for racial hygiene by using compulsory sterilizations and extermination of theUntermenschen (or "sub-humans"), and which eventually culminated in the Holocaust. These policies targeted peoples, in particular Jews, as well as Gypsies, homosexuals and handicapped people, ethnic Poles,[SUP][1][/SUP] Russians[SUP][2][/SUP] who were labeled as "inferior" in a racial hierarchy that placed the Herrenvolk (or "master race") of the Volksgemeinschaft (or "national community") at the top, and ranked Russians, Romani, Serbs, Poles, persons of color and Jews at the bottom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany



Nazi 'speech/doctrine' called for the compulsory sterilization or murder of anyone who didn't fit their ideal and neo-Nazi's have not strayed from that philosophy. Is that really the kind of 'speech' that frees a world or moves it in the direction of peace?

Would you find it acceptable that those kind of people teach it in your schools? Or here's a question that sort of relates to the issue but on a more contemporary level, how does this relate to the issue of cyber bullying? Your child is getting vicious texts from someone that are threatening his life/happiness/safety.....is this 'acceptable' because of the requirement of freedom of speech? Can you impinge on that awful persons right to say what he is saying? What if he's hanging posters around the neighbourhood to the same effect that are causing your child untold distress? Are there any moral/ethical limits to this 'free speech'?
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All the facts you cited from Wikipedia are true facts, Debbie.
The entire nation was brainwashed and severely punished if it did not follow Nazi directives and ideology.
To even suggest that its expression should be allowed under the guise of "free speech" seems strange.
Could it mean that 'National Socialism' is still not fully UNDERSTOOD?
 
"Have you ever looked at America's record of abuses and support of abuses and base any moral judgement on that?"

No, why would I? I'm not judging America.

Putin was not just "in the KGB". He was a senior officer,senior enough to influence policy. No one gets to a senior level in the KGB without pretty much subscribing to policy.

No one denies that other countries, including my own, have people and policies just as ruthless, but the original post, and my response, was a bout a Russian resolution.
 
To use the "Well YOU do it too" argument is kind of what grade school kids do when they argue. It's done when a position cannot be defended any other way. The next step would be a wedgie.
 
QuickSilver said:
See... that's the thing about "freedom of Speech"..... it's Freedom of speech... Not just speech you agree with... Not just speech that is sanctioned and approved by one segment of society.. it's about everyones right to speak. Even Nazi's I guess... AND that's exactly the thing that makes ME proud to live in a free county.. Sorry you are not.
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Agree
 
Yes AZ, the reason is that the new 'government' of the Ukraine is made up of individuals who come from neo-Nazi sympathizing groups and with Canada (or should I say the current Harper government) trying so hard to be the tough guy and to keep up with the American administration, they've opted to support that government despite it's make up. That is why they voted against the resolution. Oh, that and the fact likely that it was put forward by Russia, who all through this, have been speaking in reconciliatory terms.

Putin (and this is for Laurie) was KGB but George Bush Senior was a Director of the CIA and if you look at the known history of the CIA you will notice that their 'crimes' are no different from those attributed to the KGB. So what exactly then is the point of repeatedly mentioning it? Maybe Laurie, it's time the American voter actually started judging its government on it's foreign relations and vote accordingly.

And take note here, I said vote. I didn't say organize a coup to take down an elected government which is where this all started. $5 billion dollars it cost the American tax payer and all anyone gets worked up about is a man who has done a good job for his country without being a continuous aggressor. Propaganda is a powerful thing isn't it?

Laurie, does it matter where a resolution comes from or is it more important WHAT that resolution is? To suggest that a resolution to prevent the rise of that neo-Nazi abuse/violence should be ignored because a certain government put it forward is short sighted and I think opens the door to growth by the sorts of people that you 'don't want in your neighbourhood'.

And once again, for those who refuse to listen, Canada has hate crime laws and our Supreme Court has made decisions based on that and actually jailed and/or deported individuals because of it and strangely enough, those crimes that individuals were tried and convicted for have invariably been speech against Jewish people and no different from the rhetoric of Svoboda. So it must be your contention that it is acceptable for a government to break the principle of it's own laws by supporting people/groups who espouse the same things that our Supreme Court has found against. Amazing.


The US Has Installed a Neo-Nazi Government in the Ukraine
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

(I think it's such an interesting photo-op: American US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland standing there with a big smile beside a guy who is shown in another photo giving the Nazi salute (Heil Hitler right?))
 
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Excerpts from: http://landdestroyer.blogspot.ca/2014/11/ukraines-elections-stabilization.html

'...OSCE, who had congratulated Ukraine on its elections, provides the answers in daily reports it has issued since beginning an extensive monitoring mission in the troubled Eastern European country in March 2014. It was during Ukraine's last elections that the OSCE reported on opposition parties being regularly intimidated or outright prevented from campaigning before the May 25, 2014 polls. Right Sector was mentioned at least once by name as intervening in political proceedings in an attempt to bar opposition members from participating...

...The BBC would even travel with ultra-right Neo-Nazi militants to the Communist Party headquarters in Kiev they had taken over. The office was ransacked and defaced with Nazi runes....

...Since then, the OSCE's daily reports have included activity by Neo-Nazi groups not only taking part in direct military action against Ukrainians in the east, but also in confronting opposition groups, protesters and politicians throughout the rest of the country. It is under these conditions of fear and intimidation by Neo-Nazis and other far-right extremists, that Ukraine's most recent round of elections took place. It is no surprise that "stabilization" is expected, just as similar "stabilization" was seen after the Nazi Party seized power in Germany in the 1930's and overwrote or absorbed its opposition entirely as well....

...[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]Once again democracy's abuse by special interests across Europe and among their partners across the Atlantic in Washington is neither a victory for civilization nor the Ukrainian people, but rather a victory for those who seek "stabilization" through the eradication of their enemies. It is a "stabilization" standing opposed to, rather than for civilized coexistence and compromise, representing domination posing as "democracy." Each and every time democracy is abused in this manner, it denigrates its value as well as the legitimacy others derive from it....'[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]This is what my government, the Eurozone and America are supporting and protecting. Non-democracy including opposition intimidation and threats, violence, eradication....and all I can wonder is why does nobody care? Oh well, if this goes as far as WW3, in all likelihood the answers won't matter. Unfortunately until that happens these government officials with their agenda's will all live comfortably dishing out millions of dollars of taxpayers dollars to these Nazi lovers while it will be the Ukrainian population who will feel the cold and hunger and EU businesses and their workers who will suddenly find themselves struggling under the impact of sanctions.

It should be noted that America has given those Nazi lovers $5 billion thus far. The military industry lobbyists must be thrilled. Bonuses coming at Christmas yet again![/FONT]
 
Laurie said:
Why?
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Why not? Are you reading anything on the situation besides what ABC, NBC, NY Times, etc., are releasing? Are you looking for outside information that would add to the discussion?

Right now I'm in the midst of reading a three hour speech that Putin gave at the Vauldai International Discussion Club, on October 24, 2014. It was attended by 108 experts, historians and analysts from 25 countries, including 62 foreign participants, and included the former Prime Minister of France, Dominque de Villepin and former Federal Chancellor of Austria, Wofgang Scheussel among other notables. What kind of research are any of the other participants in this discussion doing that would make it a worthwhile endeavour? An exchange of ideas based on known facts constitutes a worthwhile endeavour, trading 'opinions' based on no information is pointless.



If you were to read it, you would hear Vladimir Putin reiterating over and over again, that there is a need for fairness and diplomacy on ALL sides. That the agreement between the government of the Ukraine and the fighters in the east that was made at Minsk must be honoured by ALL sides and that Russia would do everything it could to help both sides work together and find a peaceful resolution to the impasse. You would hear him not only decrying ANY governments attempts at interference in the business of other countries but you would hear him repeating frequently that Russia wants to do business with the world in a way that respects each country's autonomy even while Russia wants their autonomy respected.


The information that is available through the American MSM is skewed or outright lies or ignores truths entirely. The supporters of the current government burned alive 45 known victims including a pregnant woman and those who tried to escape the flames were beaten as they lay on the ground after jumping from windows. This happened in Odessa as the previous elected government was being overthrown. But if you go to CNN's website and search for Odessa Massacre, there is no entry. Nothing. I searched MSNBC's website and again, nothing. I also checked Canada's two major networks, CBC and CTV and again, nothing. So this is who you are relying on for information. I have to give credit however to the BBC because they did do a small piece on it. And in case anyone is interested there is video available that shows the neo-Nazi supporters making their molotov cocktails and cheering as the building where peaceful protestors had taken cover, begins to burn.


Just Google: Odessa Massacre video.


So Laurie, I ask why should we bother to continue the discussion?

http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/23137 (this is the link to the speech the Putin gave at the Valdai Discussion Club in case anyone is interested)
 

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