Charles Manson.

Butterfly said:
I worked in the office of an attorney who was appointed to do a lot of these appeals, and believe me, there's not a lot of money in it. Perhaps if the attorney is doing an appeal for a wealthy client, who can afford to pay, but most certainly not in court appointed appeals paid for by the state for those who can't afford it, and there's a HUGE amount of work involved. Part of the reason appeals drag on for so long is that is takes the appellate courts so long to rule, but then they are overburdened, too. And part of it is that most criminal attorneys do not do appeals, and they are farmed out to appellate specialists because it's a whole different ball game than trial work, and there are not a whole lot of appellate specialists.

I do strongly believe that everyone is entitled to due process, and that includes appeals. I don't know what the answer is. It would help, I think, if we had a "life" sentence that REALLY meant life in prison with no possibility.

New Mexico no longer has the death penalty, but we do have two people up on death row whose crimes were committed before the death penalty was abolished here and whose appeals, last time I heard, are still ongoing.
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If your state abolished the death penalty, wouldn't that mean the individuals now have life sentences? That's what happened to Manson and the others with the Supreme Court decision in 1972.
 
JaniceM said:
If your state abolished the death penalty, wouldn't that mean the individuals now have life sentences? That's what happened to Manson and the others with the Supreme Court decision in 1972.
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Nope; Furman v. Georgia in the Supreme Court in 1972 abolished all capital punishment in the US, but the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976 (in the case of Gregg v. Georgia). New Mexico reinstated the death penalty in 1979. New Mexico didn't abolish the death penalty until 2009, and under our state law the death penalty was abolished for crimes having been committed after the date of abolishment (July 1, 2009), and was not made retroactive. Thus those sentenced to death for crimes committed after 1979 and before July 1, 2009 are still under a death sentence. This situation has been litigated here ad nauseum, but it is the way our law on the matter is written.
 

I'm not entirely sure the death penalty does not have its applications -- for instance in the case of little Victoria Martens here, who was raped by mother's boyfriend with the assistance of mother, the cousin of the boyfriend, then stabbed, dismembered and partially burned in the apartment's bathtub.

Reported by the Albuquerque Journal, Aug 25, 2016:

"Young Victoria Martens’ dismembered body was burning in the bathtub, half-wrapped in a blanket. Parts of her body were found in a plastic bag in a laundry hamper, and the floor of her bedroom was stained with blood.

Three people, including the girl’s mother, are accused in the killing. Victoria’s mother, Michelle Martens, 35, faces multiple charges including child abuse resulting in great bodily harm or death, along with her new boyfriend, Fabian Gonzales, 31, and his cousin Jessica Kelley, 31, who had just been released from prison.
Both Martens and Gonzales told investigators they met only about a month ago on a dating website. Gonzales told reporters and police that he wasn’t involved in the crime, putting the blame on Kelley.

But Martens told investigators that she watched as Gonzales and Kelley injected Victoria with methamphetamine “to calm her down” so they could both sexually assault her. She said Gonzales then strangled her and Kelley stabbed her.

The two of them dismembered the girl’s body, according to Martens’ statement to police.

“This homicide is the most gruesome act of evil I have ever seen in my career,” said Police Chief Gorden Eden. It’s “a complete disregard of human life and betrayal by a mother.”

Albuquerque police spokesman Tanner Tixier choked up as he said the girl’s body was so mutilated that investigators are not sure how she died. They believe she died either from the strangulation or stab wounds, but are waiting for an autopsy to be completed."


These charming people are, as I understand it, still in custody awaiting trial on $1,000,000 bond. These people should NEVER be allowed free again. NEVER! I wouldn't mind the death penalty being applied in this case if it were legal, which it isn't.
 
I lived through the murders and the trials. It was always the lead story on TV. And I read Mr. Bugliosi's book, "Helter Skelter". There's something about Charlie that gets to people. He an 83, dead murderer, but he got 58 of you to comment about him. There are just so many weird aspects. Charlie was convinced the Beatles were sending him coded messages about a coming racial war. Blacks were going to kill all Whites. Charlie was going to live in a hole in the desert. When the killing was all over. The Blacks would beg Charlie to lead them. His family would repopulate the White Race. Charlie and the family were saviors of the White Race. Blackie was too stupid to start their own race war, Charlie had to help them start it. But what he needed was confirmation from the Beatles. What did the Beatles do? They released their "White Album".
There is something evil, but yet fascinating about Manson.
 
"Manson "should have" been executed, but he wasn't. It didn't matter, either way. The family of the victims never get closure by an execution. The pain does not automatically stop."

Most family members that have wanted the defendant that was found guilty of killing a family member have said that it's not about getting closure, it's about getting justice. For example; "He took my brother's life, so he should die also."

Over my 37 years as a State Policeman, I have seen some pretty gruesome and horrific sites. Everything from a gunshot wound to the head, to multiple knife wounds, to a dismembered body. Dead is dead, but the degree of brutality has sometimes ruined my day. Like one poster has already stated, there are some killers that just need to be put to death. With DNA testing being used today to assist with finding the true murderer, I am more inclined to go with it. But, then again it always depends on the totality of the case. At least for me it does.

Here in PA, we had a case where a boyfriend/girlfriend killed the girl's parents using a shotgun. While asleep, Daddy took one to the face and Mommy was next with two shots, one to the chest and one to the side of the head. The father's side of the family wanted the daughter to be given life w/o parole, which here in PA, life is always w/o parole, but the mother's side wanted the daughter to be put to death. Both kids were 17 and 16, so the death penalty was off the table. But this gives you an example of how people think differently. I was a uniformed Trooper at the time, so I was not involved in the investigation. I was there just to help secure the crime scene. Worse part for me is the smell.

 
I spent some years in support groups with other families of victims. Some few of them chose forgiveness, but I have to say most of them wanted revenge. They could call it justice all they liked, but it was pure and simple revenge they were after, administered by the state.

I think what has always bothered me were those people who, when DNA testing determined the convicted person had not murdered their loved one, still wanted him to die and sometimes actively campaigned for that to happen. That person had become the focus of their revenge and no official exoneration was going to make them change their minds. It's hard to make any sense of it because I can't imagine how you could possibly get any closure if an innocent person got put to death, but it's an emotional response and has nothing to do with logic. I think they probably wanted anything that might ease their suffering, but that won't ever happen. Their loved one is dead and isn't coming back no matter how many people go to prison or are executed for it. A very public example of that was the Amanda Knox case. Meredith Kercher's family still want Amanda Knox to be imprisoned in Italy, no matter that it has been proved conclusively and ruled by the Italian Supreme Court that Knox did not murder Kercher. The Kercher family has never seemed to be especially interested in the actual murderer because their entire focus was on Amanda Knox.

After an execution, family members have said it didn't do a thing to alleviate their suffering, no matter how much they had hoped it would. I remember reading an interview with a man whose family member was killed by Tim McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing. The man witnessed McVeigh's execution, hoping he would break down, cry, or beg for forgiveness. Instead McVeigh stared at the ceiling the entire time, showed no emotion and never wavered. The man was devastated because he saw someone die and did not get the emotional release he desperately wanted.

I know it's hard not to be bloodthirsty when you watch the news and hear the drumbeat "brutally murdered" many thousands of times. Hopefully I would be among the Romans who refused to go to the Coliseum and if I were forced to be there, I would give a thumbs-up to acquit the gladiator. Killing people does not ever bring anyone back from the dead.
 
Re: revenge-" While seeking revenge, best to dig two graves - one for yourself."
Author: unknown


Forgiveness for the murderer of a loved one is inconceivable to me. Some people can achieve that, that would be my shortcoming.

"Rot in prison" would be sufficient to bring me a sense of justice. The murderer will ultimately answer for his/her crime before God.

 
OK, so I think this is turning into a debate of should we have the death penalty. Maybe yes, maybe no. I also don't want to sound like a know-it-all. Sometimes when people are involved in an occupation that deals with the subject, other people do sometimes believe that to be true. That's not me, but I do have some knowledge and experience with this issue having witnessed two executions; one here in PA and one on Florida on behalf of the Commonwealth as a witness (long story).

I don't disagree with anyone's points of view. I will say that I am probably more on Thomas's side when it comes to forgiving, if one of my family members were to be murdered. Forgiving would probably be impossible and it has to hurt like Hell. I have seen people suffer greatly and go into some really deep depression. My heart and soul cries for them.

As for whether people are being disingenuous when they say they want the murderer to be put to death, so that they may have justice for their loved one, I have looked people in the eye when they told me that they were seeking justice and for some, that may be true that they were just trying to 'con', me, but I also believe that there are those that are being truthful. Personally, I don't know how I would react, or what I would ask the Prosecutor to seek. I think it would depend on the brutality and the situation. I would have to look at the whole picture.

Anyway, I have said my peace. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
 
911, I never felt anyone I knew was trying to run a con. I think people genuinely confuse justice and revenge.

tnthomas, I wasn't in those support groups because I was a group leader or a therapist. 'Nuff said. I don't want to get into it. What I will say is that if I was able to forgive, I figure it can't be that complicated.
 

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