Circular arguments, (I'm sometimes accused of using these by folks who should know would you believe?).

grahamg

Old codger
I often struggle a bit when arguing with someone over whatever it might be, especially a professional of some kind when I'm told I've been guilty of using a "circular argument", ("Hell I dont even know what that means" - Its hard to be humble you know! :giggle: ).

Quote:
"The fallacy of circular argument, known as petitio principii (“begging the question”), occurs when the premises presume, openly or covertly, the very conclusion that is to be demonstrated".

Example:
“Smoking is bad because it has a negative impact on your health.”

Explanation: In this case, the arguer isn’t providing any reasons that prove that smoking is bad. The arguer is just replacing ‘bad’ with ‘negative impact.’ The arguer doesn’t give any reasons to think that the conclusion is true, but is simply restating the conclusion using different words."

 

I taught logic for years and that is not a circular argument. 'Negatively affecting' health is sufficient reason for it being bad
To rephrase it say smoking is bad. Why is it bad? Because it is evil. Or because it just is.
Or. You should eat healthy because it is good for you. The predicate is assumed in the healthy
 
Am I getting any closer with this example(?):

Circular argument: "A type of reasoning in which the preposition is supported by the premise, which is supported by the preposition,, creating a circle in reasoning where no useful information is being shared. This fallacy is often humorous."
 

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Graham, I'm sure you're a nice fellow. I truly mean no disrespect but,
I read your posts again and again (on all your threads) and It's as though
I'm trying to read Chinese!
I honestly try to understand what you are saying but
I don't understand you!
Are you from Earth? (haha)
I'm sorry!
 
Graham, I'm sure you're a nice fellow. I truly mean no disrespect but,
I read your posts again and again (on all your threads) and It's as though
I'm trying to read Chinese! I honestly try to understand what you are saying but
I don't understand you! Are you from Earth? (haha)
You're not on your own saying that!
However, on this thread the fact is I'm still a little confused myself, even after another forum member has tried to explain what the thread topic is about. What makes it worse is it appears to be a fairly simple concept, and mistake I'm told I'm making by using circular arguments, but I'm not confident I'll recognise my error and correct myself, or avoid using them again.
I'm sorry!
No need to be sorry therefore, (and my then wife told me I used to "speak in riddles", but she wasn't always fair), and when pushed, or the spirit moves me I can be clear and concise, or to use one word, "succinct"! :)
 
More on circular arguments:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Circular-Reasoning

I feel a little better having read this:

"Exception: Some philosophies state that we can never escape circular reasoning because the arguments always come back to axioms or first principles, but in those cases, the circles are very large and do manage to share useful information in determining the truth of the proposition.

Tip: Do your best to avoid circular arguments, as it will help you reason better because better reasoning is often a result of avoiding circular arguments."

I'm going to try to go back and seek out some examples of my being guilty of circular arguments, (where I've been guilty on this forum you can assist in this if you wish!). :)
 
Quote:
"The fallacy of circular argument, known as petitio principii (“begging the question”), occurs when the premises presume, openly or covertly, the very conclusion that is to be demonstrated".

Example:
“Smoking is bad because it has a negative impact on your health.”
The argument is not only factually correct, there's no fallacy attached.
Example: A person writes a thesis... the title and opening statement could present the question: "Does smoking have a negative health impact?"
The body of the thesis would be describing the legwork of the investigation, and the collection and processing of data. Then, the author could declare in closing: "Smoking has a negative health impact".
 
Graham, I'm sure you're a nice fellow. I truly mean no disrespect but,
I read your posts again and again (on all your threads) and It's as though
I'm trying to read Chinese!
I honestly try to understand what you are saying but
I don't understand you!
Are you from Earth? (haha)
I'm sorry!
I also sometimes have trouble following @grahamg 's logic, however I find that his posts often lead to interesting conversations.

Could be he's over my head, who knows. None the less I like him and his posts, much as I like you @Gaer and your posts.
 
I also sometimes have trouble following @grahamg 's logic, however I find that his posts often lead to interesting conversations.
Could be he's over my head, who knows. None the less I like him and his posts, much as I like you @Gaer and your posts.
Very kind of you to say that and to suggest something I've said is over your head, but I suspect I'm often going way over my own head in making some of the arguments! :)
 
The argument is not only factually correct, there's no fallacy attached.
Example: A person writes a thesis... the title and opening statement could present the question: "Does smoking have a negative health impact?"
The body of the thesis would be describing the legwork of the investigation, and the collection and processing of data. Then, the author could declare in closing: "Smoking has a negative health impact".
It does look like a poor example I used on the website I quoted in the OP, (I think it mentioned politics so I didn't post it, and "unfortunately, or fortunately I cant find it again now"!).

Here is a better website in any case:
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/circular-argument-fallacy/#:~:text=A circular argument, also known,for the claim are true.

Quote:
" What is a circular argument in writing?
To illustrate what we meant by “you can’t define something by using it as the definition”, here are a few examples of a circular argument:

  • Ryan makes delicious burgers because he’s an excellent cook.
  • You have to drive under the speed limit because it’s illegal to drive faster than the speed limit.
  • This offer can’t be a pyramid scheme because pyramid schemes are illegal.
A circular argument, also known as circular reasoning, is considered a logical fallacy because when you make this type of argument, you are not supporting your claim with logic. Instead, you’re using your claim to “prove” that the reasons for the claim are true.

To go back to our first example, imagine Ryan’s brother says that Ryan makes delicious burgers. You ask what makes the burgers so delicious, and he tells you it’s because Ryan is an excellent cook. That might be true, but logically, it doesn’t support the claim. A logical way to support this claim might be to explain that Ryan developed a unique spice blend for burgers, or that he uses high-quality ingredients.

A circular argument adheres to the formula “X is true because of Y, and Y is true because of X,” which is a circular formula.

Types of circular arguments​

Circular reasoning can appear in just about any type of communication. You might run into it in literature, social media comments, speeches, or everyday conversation. People use circular arguments for a variety of reasons. Sometimes, it’s because they genuinely believe they’re making a logical statement. In other cases, it’s to acknowledge a paradox or critique a situation that forces people to make illogical choices.

It’s not uncommon to come across circular reasoning in political rhetoric. Often, this is in relation to the lawfulness or unlawfulness of a specific policy.

Another common circular argument you might encounter in political speech is the assertion that elected officials should be respected because they’re elected officials.

Paradox​

Circular arguments are also made as a way to ponder pardoxes. Perhaps the most famous paradox is this: “Which came first, the chicken or the egg?”

A paradox is a statement that seems to contradict itself, but in fact, it is logically sound. Often, they’re meant to be thought-provoking. Here are a few examples:

  • You can save money by spending money.
  • You don’t know what you don’t know.
  • It’s the beginning of the end.
A circular argument formatted as a paradox might look like this:

  • Nobody’s read that book because it’s always checked out of the library.
  • “Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.” —Yogi Berra
 
This, (taken from the same website quoted in the last post), looks useful to me:

Quote:

How to avoid using circular arguments in your writing​

You should avoid making circular arguments in your academic and professional writing because a circular argument—like any logical fallacy—undermines your position. With creative and personal pieces, you have the freedom to be as illogical as you’d like to be because you aren’t analyzing or presenting data, defending a position, making an argument, or attempting to persuade your reader to take action.

Having a circular argument in your writing also tells readers that you don’t have a strong understanding of your topic. Whether this is the case or not, it’s something a circular argument communicates. This is why it’s important to carefully read your first draft after you finish writing it and as you make edits, and that you revise with an articulate, logically sound final version in mind. When you go back to proofread your last draft, double-check for logical fallacies and inconsistencies one last time before you submit your work.

Here’s how you do that: As you read your first draft, note all the claims you make. Then, note the evidence you provide for each of these claims. Can you support each claim with information from your sources? If you can’t support a claim in your writing, find evidence that supports it and work the evidence into your piece. Sometimes, this is as simple as rewording a passage to make the evidence clearer. In other cases, if you can’t support your claim with evidence, it may be a sign that it’s logically unsound.
 
Now I'm armed with the above information, I'm off to another section of the forum to deliberately start a thread using a circular argument.

The reason I'm going to another section is to avoid clouding my mind with any more confusing thoughts on this thread, and/or deflecting this thread, (and then losing the progress in understanding I feel has been made here).
 
Quickly looking through one of my old text books, I found that the definition of a circular argument to mean: Making a statement that has yet to be proved. "It's going to rain because I can see dark clouds." " Or, "Jim is a great guy because so many others embellish him."
 

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