Cut Your Living Expenses w/o Lowering Your Standard of Living

mathjak107 said:
a house is only a protected asset if held in personal names . any living revocable trust un-protects it .

the trust keeps the house from going going through probate but what happens is the value of that house now counts towards qualifying for medicaid . many made this mistake and now have to sell the house , spend down the cash they got in order to qualify for medicaid .

so while most states will only go after probated assets in recovery and the house in the trust won't be probated , you just can't qualify for medicaid in the first place in this case with the house in a living trust since it now counts as an asset that has to be spent down for care first ..
Click to expand...

Wow! I did not know this. Guess it's time to talk to our attorney about taking our house out of our living trust and into joint tenancy.
 

mathjak107 said:
This is why you want only elder law attorneys and not general practitioners
Click to expand...

We have a trust attorney who is roughly 60 years old. His specialty is estate planning, trust & probate. I shot him an email about this after reading your post above and doing a little internet research.
 

mathjak107 said:
This is why you want only elder law attorneys and not general practitioners
Click to expand...

I worked as a paralegal for nearly 50 years, and know from experience that many people do not realize, or do not want to accept, that attorneys specialize almost as much as doctors. We had clients that didn't want to hear it or even got offended when we told them we could not represent them in a particular matter because our expertise was not in the field they needed. You don't want your general practice family attorney tackling complicated trust and estate or tax matters any more than you want your family practice physician doing your heart transplant.
 
you see people trying to save money all the time even doing these complex and word sensitive documents like wills and trusts all the time .

in my life time we already experienced 2x the effects of poorly constructed wills that ended up costing us a lot of money .

this is another area that if people think the cost of good advice is expensive ,wait and see what cheap cost
 
mathjak107 said:
you see people trying to save money all the time even doing these complex and word sensitive documents like wills and trusts all the time .

in my life time we already experienced 2x the effects of poorly constructed wills that ended up costing us a lot of money .

this is another area that if people think the cost of good advice is expensive ,wait and see what cheap cost
Click to expand...

I agree with both MJ and Butterfly about the value of good legal advice - my mother's trust was written by the same attorney who did ours and her (well over $1.5 M estate) went through without a hitch, even though she excluded one of her children via an amendment.

Butterfly said:
I worked as a paralegal for nearly 50 years, and know from experience that many people do not realize, or do not want to accept, that attorneys specialize almost as much as doctors. We had clients that didn't want to hear it or even got offended when we told them we could not represent them in a particular matter because our expertise was not in the field they needed. You don't want your general practice family attorney tackling complicated trust and estate or tax matters any more than you want your family practice physician doing your heart transplant.
Click to expand...

So you're recommending both a trust attorney and an elder law attorney? Sigh... I would think that when we updated our trust (only 3 years ago) this would have been a reasonable conversation for him to have with us, especially since his rates are not low by any means ($1800 for a simple, straightforward update for an uncomplicated trust, the largest asset being our home).

To further your analogy, while I wouldn't want or expect my GP doing a heart transplant, I would expect that in consideration of my age he would have done some cursory checks on my cardio vascular system and suggested I see a specialist if things were a little wonky there. I shouldn't have to diagnose my own symptoms on an internet forum, if you get my drift.
 
StarSong said:
I agree with both MJ and Butterfly about the value of good legal advice - my mother's trust was written by the same attorney who did ours and her (well over $1.5 M estate) went through without a hitch, even though she excluded one of her children via an amendment.



So you're recommending both a trust attorney and an elder law attorney? Sigh... I would think that when we updated our trust (only 3 years ago) this would have been a reasonable conversation for him to have with us, especially since his rates are not low by any means ($1800 for a simple, straightforward update for an uncomplicated trust, the largest asset being our home).

To further your analogy, while I wouldn't want or expect my GP doing a heart transplant, I would expect that in consideration of my age he would have done some cursory checks on my cardio vascular system and suggested I see a specialist if things were a little wonky there. I shouldn't have to diagnose my own symptoms on an internet forum, if you get my drift.
Click to expand...

usually an estate attorney does elder law too.

we did 2 wills. 2 disclaimer trusts and healthcare proxies and poa and it was 4800. The disclaimer trusts were very costly. Now that ny is the same as the federal amount for passing tax free we don’t even need them anymore
 
Last edited:
mathjak107 said:
usually an estate attorney does elder law too.

we did 2wills. 2 disclaimer trusts and healthcare proxies and poa and it was 4800. The disclaimer trusts were very costly. Now that ny is the same as the federal amount for passing tax free we don’t even need them anymore
Click to expand...

Without your trust your estate would have to go through probate though, correct?
 
no , everything we have is beneficiary ...... no probate .

we needed the disclaimer trust because at the time ny had only a 2 million dollar estate tax exemption and if you went over by 5% you just did not pay on the overage you paid the whole tax from dollar 1 . it was a joke how they did it . so the surviving spouse had up to 9 months to elect to throw a switch and split the estate in to 2 with 1/2 in an irrevocable trust so 2x could pass .

today ny is over 5 million so we don't need it right now . i hope markets do that well and one day one of us has to throw that switch .
 
Last edited:
StarSong said:
Without your trust your estate would have to go through probate though, correct?
Click to expand...


i pulled all money from vanguard .

they deleted all beneficiaries on joint accounts without any notification . we only found out because they re-did their website and it presents a things to do list .

it showed add beneficiaries and we knew we did it .

well i tried adding them and it gave an error so i contacted them .

apparently in their judgement common deaths are not common enough and in the event of one they prefer you use a trust .

which by the way they just happen to be promoting their trust dept .

we don't need a trust or want a trust so the only option was to break up the joint accounts in to individual accounts and add beneficiaries back . no thanks ..

fidelity could not believe vanguard did that , our rep had to confirm it for themselves it was so stupid .

we ended up pulling everything out and going to chase to get the private client perks . they too were surprised vanguard tried to push us in to trusts .

on top of that i experience the worst customer service ever from them . getting passed around like a hot potato when i had an acat transfer question .

instead of taking the info like fidelity does and getting someone on the line or someone to call back , they just kept passing us off calling different numbers .

they finally passed us to a number that no one ever answered . for laughs we left the multiple phones we tried calling in on where we got a message to hold for the next rep and 1 hour and 15 minutes later we stopped counting and hung up .

in my opinion they suck!!!!!!!
 
StarSong said:
I agree with both MJ and Butterfly about the value of good legal advice - my mother's trust was written by the same attorney who did ours and her (well over $1.5 M estate) went through without a hitch, even though she excluded one of her children via an amendment.



So you're recommending both a trust attorney and an elder law attorney? Sigh... I would think that when we updated our trust (only 3 years ago) this would have been a reasonable conversation for him to have with us, especially since his rates are not low by any means ($1800 for a simple, straightforward update for an uncomplicated trust, the largest asset being our home).

To further your analogy, while I wouldn't want or expect my GP doing a heart transplant, I would expect that in consideration of my age he would have done some cursory checks on my cardio vascular system and suggested I see a specialist if things were a little wonky there. I shouldn't have to diagnose my own symptoms on an internet forum, if you get my drift.
Click to expand...

No, not two different attorneys -- just don't expect an attorney with a general practice to do complicated stuff like trusts. As someone else said, elder law attorneys and trust and estate attorneys generally do both.

Reputable attorneys will tell you when you are out of their depth, but my experience is that many people don't understand that just because you an attorney doesn't mean you practice in all areas of the law -- thus the "heart transplant" thing. Sorry if I was misleading.
 
StarSong said:
Without your trust your estate would have to go through probate though, correct?
Click to expand...

No. All my stuff except my house is "beneficiary" also, My house is on a Transfer on Death deed (which not all states have), so that upon filing of proof of my death, i.e., a death certificate, the house automatically transfers to my son, thus avoiding probate. The TOD deed can be revoked or altered by me as long as I am alive and does not affect my ability to sell or whatever else, the house.

My personal belief is that with a bit of planning most (at least those of us without minor children or a beneficiary who is incompetent to manage his/her own affairs) of us can avoid the trust or will-to-probate thing, which is expensive and time consuming. If property passes through a will, it must be probated, at least in my state it does.
 
mathjak107 said:
you see people trying to save money all the time even doing these complex and word sensitive documents like wills and trusts all the time .

in my life time we already experienced 2x the effects of poorly constructed wills that ended up costing us a lot of money .

this is another area that if people think the cost of good advice is expensive ,wait and see what cheap cost
Click to expand...

A big fat "AMEN!" to that!
 
mathjak107 said:
did he ever get back to you ?
Click to expand...

Hi MJ, yes, he did. He said we had assets that would be affected earlier than our house, so basically an answer that's a non-answer. He's pro LTC insurance, which we opted against and are not interested in revisiting that particular decision.

I recently spoke to an attorney friend who suggested we have a consult with an elder law attorney, so that will be our next step. It may behoove us to move our house out of the trust and into Joint Tenancy. Yes, we'd have to deal with probate if we died at the same time, but that's a risk we're willing to take.

As FB said, laws vary from state to state.
 
mathjak107 said:
i pulled all money from vanguard .

they deleted all beneficiaries on joint accounts without any notification . we only found out because they re-did their website and it presents a things to do list .

it showed add beneficiaries and we knew we did it .

well i tried adding them and it gave an error so i contacted them .

apparently in their judgement common deaths are not common enough and in the event of one they prefer you use a trust .

which by the way they just happen to be promoting their trust dept .

we don't need a trust or want a trust so the only option was to break up the joint accounts in to individual accounts and add beneficiaries back . no thanks ..

fidelity could not believe vanguard did that , our rep had to confirm it for themselves it was so stupid .

we ended up pulling everything out and going to chase to get the private client perks . they too were surprised vanguard tried to push us in to trusts .

on top of that i experience the worst customer service ever from them . getting passed around like a hot potato when i had an acat transfer question .

instead of taking the info like fidelity does and getting someone on the line or someone to call back , they just kept passing us off calling different numbers .

they finally passed us to a number that no one ever answered . for laughs we left the multiple phones we tried calling in on where we got a message to hold for the next rep and 1 hour and 15 minutes later we stopped counting and hung up .

in my opinion they suck!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

I'm glad I transferred my investments out of Vanguard too. I did so because nothing about dealing with them was user friendly. Apparently I did so before they did what you experienced. A couple of years back I also transferred investments out of Fidelity because none of their representatives would answer a simple question: Are they still affiliated with ALEC. I felt as an investor in their company I had a right to receive an answer. Many large, reputable companies had severed ties with ALEC due to their far reaching agenda.
 
mathjak107 said:
the problem is cost cutting has a bottom and when expenses you can't control keep rising , eventually you see why not only is cost cutting importnt but growing income as well is very key .

generally in all these frugal living forums to much focus goes in to lowering expenses and not enough on making sure investments can produce enough income to keep up once there is nothing left to cut except to down grade an entire lifestyle .
Click to expand...

It's unfortunate Mathjak but most people I know in frugal forums don't even have savings accounts let alone investments. And according to so many articles I've read, they are hardly alone. Everybody is not as fortunate as you (or I) in that regard so to focus on growing investments would be a moot point.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
It's unfortunate Mathjak but most people I know in frugal forums don't even have savings accounts let alone investments. And according to so many articles I've read, they are hardly alone. Everybody is not as fortunate as you (or I) in that regard so to focus on growing investments would be a moot point.
Click to expand...
And that is why they have the problems so many are hitting in retirement . Most desirable areas are going to have faster and higher growing expenses and that makes that paid off mortgage irrelevant in affordability.

so many retirees surveyed in the tristate area thought they were set by having a paid off mortgage by retirement .

well all well and good that 30k mortgage you took , was paid off 30 years later but taxes are 12-18k alone today . That mortgage payment down th road won’t cover your utility bill.

so thinking cost cutting was going to be the answer has now got most moving and not by choice . Many are leaving family and friends .

so it is not a case of one is easier to do then the other for some , it is the fact if you don’t put yourself in the position of cutting costs and being able to grow income you better have a plan B
 
mathjak107 said:
And that is why they have the problems so many are hitting in retirement . Most desirable areas are going to have faster and higher growing expenses and that makes that paid off mortgage irrelevant in affordability.

so many retirees surveyed in the tristate area thought they were set by having a paid off mortgage by retirement .

well all well and good that 30k mortgage you took , was paid off 30 years later but taxes are 12-18k alone today . That mortgage payment down th road won’t cover your utility bill.

so thinking cost cutting was going to be the answer has now got most moving and not by choice . Many are leaving family and friends .

so it is not a case of one is easier to do then the other for some , it is the fact if you don’t put yourself in the position of cutting costs and being able to grow income you better have a plan B
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm so late replying...just saw this. The last couple of months of 2018 were hell and hectic. My husband had been in and out of the hospital and rehab center which kept me ripping and running. He finally wound up in ICU for 2 weeks on life support and passed away Dec. 23rd. In January I took a nearly 2 week vacation, then had to catch up with things I was too exhausted to get done those months. Anyway, I'm just now starting to catch up on my social networking sites.

I've been telling people the same kinds of things you speak of in your reply. I'm trying to get my grandchildren ready for financial realities of this life. Been talking to my son for literally decades...now he finally gets it....he'll be 51 in a couple of months. I also have a couple of friends and honorary children who ask for my money advice. I have to laugh when I see those home buying shows and new home owners are so happy saying they finally "own" their home. I think, just miss a payment or two and you'll see that you don't own it. Same for taxes. The average person I know either can't come up with that additional $4,500 a quarter for taxes or it's a real strain with life's other costs. Rents are not that affordable for the average young couple in my area but go a few miles to one of the infamously high cost counties in my state and rents are down right ridiculous; $2,558 for a one bedroom. So I "preach" to the young-uns to start saving at least 20 cents out of every dollar they make because I shudder to think what rents and/or mortgages will be when they get older. For the Gen-X'ers I tell them it's time to step it up and max out their retirement investments to the best of their abilities after saving an adequate emergency fund. Cut out the wants and only do the needs.
 
Our kids grew up here in Florida, but are now live about 3000 miles away in the Pacific northwet. They are much more affluent than we are, so it is logical to keep the status quo. We paid cash for our condo and we do not live extravagantly, so there is no reason to change anything. Down the road may be another story.
 
I'd get some legal advice before doing things like this. There was a similar plan like this about 20 years ago. I bought my parents home for $1. They still paid all the bills, etc. It was supposed to avoid taxes. She lived in Massachusetts, where there are high property taxes. The little house that my parents bought in 1960 for $11,000 was then appraised for ten times that. Since she didn't own the home, she couldn't claim the tax credit. Plus they changed the tax code to do away with that loop hole. My mom bought back her home for that $1. Ya know I never did get that buck.
 
My husband lived in his mothers home - his dad had passed away - he moved in and took care of the place for his mom and I took her to her dr appointments, lunch engagements etc. She signed the home over to us and we put in the signing that she had life use. Fortunately we had the means to continue to pay the taxes and the bills. She eventually had to go to a nursing home as she had alzhiemers (sp?). When she moved to the nursing home the county tried to tell us we had to turn the home over to them. I called my lawyer who informed me that we did not have to because my husband had lived there for many years and that it was his residence. I called the county back and informed them of what the lawyer had said. The county said "yes, you are correct. But if you dont know that then we do whatever we can to get the homes." That really floored me!!!! That was 15 years ago, and I still cannot believe what I heard from that county worker.

Always ask for advice when someone is trying to take something from you or talk you into something. I am so glad I made that phone call.
 
I’ve got to agree about getting legal advice about important decisions regarding estates or finances. Just reading Connie’s last post should make everyone shudder.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top