Decriminalizing heroin, here's what Portugal looks like after 14 years....

Yes, I do too but I think it's not going to happen here anytime soon. I think Europe is ahead of us in this respect.
 

Whatever helps but I think AS is right. Too many young kids are too eager to try it and then they get hooked.

Addiction is one thing, but other crimes are committed to pay for the drugs. It's like a dog chasing its tail.
 
I agree, the war on drugs should not be ended. We have Colorado now legally selling drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Colorado

I know there are problems with drugs in the Colorado area. Just don't have links right now. There are so far no real problems but still some concerns about being sold as it is. I think it was just a few weeks back when an article came out about some dealers were caught illegally selling. I don't think there is a move to shut all of them down right yet.
 
Everything is easily available everywhere anyway, BObF....making something legal is not going to make it worse in my opinion.

read the article though, it's not a free for all...if caught with heroin they have rehab, etc. putting people in jail does not help or curtail the problem.
 
No justification in not doing something about the problem either. Booze is legal too, in most places. Once I drank booze, got hooked, could not longer control my life or provide for my family. My employer decided to send me to an alcoholic and drug recovery center. One of the best things of my life. Four weeks of various ways of living and I was released with a good start to recovery. I was in my forties then and now in my 80's. Have not had any drinks since my dry out days. Thanks to the employers good start and then AA kept me going for several years. For the last many years now I have not had to depend on outside help to keep me clean and dry.

I did not say it was wrong to sell drugs at all. I did comment on how some of the official drug sellers were found to be cheating or selling wrong items. Whatever, drugs should not be just laying around as booze has been over many years. We have young folks, junior high and even lower being found with drugs and being in great trouble because of the drug experiments they do get into. Drugs must be kept under close control. Colorado has been trying to do this for a few short years now and a couple other states have threatened to start drug sales officially, as Colorado has done. Police must keep a close eye on what is getting sold and who is buying it. Dealers need to know if they get caught doing things wrong, they will spend some time in custody and pay plenty in fines. Each dealer caught doing wrong should be totally, and completely, put out of business.

What no country can do is just have a open and free form of intoxicating or mind bending items just being available for all just for asking. Been there, done that. Best with some controls and penalties to help keep things a bit normal.
 
No matter how may laws we have, people will still abuse drugs. This nation should have learned its lesson during Prohibition. All Prohibition did was make the Mafia filthy rich, and our drug laws are making millionaires out of the drug kingpins. Far better to legalize it, control it, and tax it...and take the distribution out of the hands of the criminals, and drug gangs....IMO. So long as people are dumb enough to fool around with this stuff, no method will ever be fool proof, but our present laws just make No sense at all.

Colorado's biggest problem....for the marijuana dealers...is what to do with all their money. By federal law, no bank can accept deposits from drug money, so they are having to hoard their huge profits in big safes hidden away and guarded by private security. That...and the number of traffic accidents is going up rapidly because of all the "stoners" driving around.
 
BobF said:
I agree, the war on drugs should not be ended. We have Colorado now legally selling drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Colorado

I know there are problems with drugs in the Colorado area. Just don't have links right now. There are so far no real problems but still some concerns about being sold as it is. I think it was just a few weeks back when an article came out about some dealers were caught illegally selling. I don't think there is a move to shut all of them down right yet.
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Absolutely do not end the war on drugs. Fight it a different way but "legalization" isn't necessarily the panacea for every country.

The problem with any study or policy is that what might work in one country might not work in another. Too many variables that could prevent success. First is the size and demographics of the population. Portugal is a fraction of the size of the US geographically. Politics and the economy are different. All those factors could alter the results of such a policy in the US or any other nation for that matter.

Then I find the 10 day supply a little too much quite frankly. 10 day supply could mean 10 different customers for some. Alcohol is already "a" problem that causes lying, cheating and stealing. Alcohol creates motor vehicle havoc(what percentage of the Portuguese population drives or owns a car) Same could be said for pot in Colorado. Look at the problems abuse of legal painkillers are having, true criminal behavior is contributing to most but never the less a legal substance has become a big problem.

By legalizing potentially dangerous behavior and substances it takes away personal responsibility and gives those who made poor choices an excuse, rationalization and literally one get out of jail free card.
 
LynnD said:
Yes, I do too but I think it's not going to happen here anytime soon. I think Europe is ahead of us in this respect.
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Yes, it is. The Netherlands has had areas to legally smoke pot for decades. In the UK those trying to get off heroin are given free methodone.
 
BobF said:
No justification in not doing something about the problem either. Booze is legal too, in most places. Once I drank booze, got hooked, could not longer control my life or provide for my family. My employer decided to send me to an alcoholic and drug recovery center. One of the best things of my life. Four weeks of various ways of living and I was released with a good start to recovery. I was in my forties then and now in my 80's. Have not had any drinks since my dry out days. Thanks to the employers good start and then AA kept me going for several years. For the last many years now I have not had to depend on outside help to keep me clean and dry.

I did not say it was wrong to sell drugs at all. I did comment on how some of the official drug sellers were found to be cheating or selling wrong items. Whatever, drugs should not be just laying around as booze has been over many years. We have young folks, junior high and even lower being found with drugs and being in great trouble because of the drug experiments they do get into. Drugs must be kept under close control. Colorado has been trying to do this for a few short years now and a couple other states have threatened to start drug sales officially, as Colorado has done. Police must keep a close eye on what is getting sold and who is buying it. Dealers need to know if they get caught doing things wrong, they will spend some time in custody and pay plenty in fines. Each dealer caught doing wrong should be totally, and completely, put out of business.

What no country can do is just have a open and free form of intoxicating or mind bending items just being available for all just for asking. Been there, done that. Best with some controls and penalties to help keep things a bit normal.
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The point is dealers don't care about jail time, they are in and then back out dealing again. Maybe dealers could get jail time but users get rehab...if we can just help the users....we wouldn't need dealers.

This is is a very complicated issue and no easy fixes but do need o change the way we are doing things because it's getting worse not better.
 
Ameriscot said:
Yes, it is. The Netherlands has had areas to legally smoke pot for decades. In the UK those trying to get off heroin are given free methodone.
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We also have a methadone program, works for some, while others abuse that also.
 
Possession isn't as innocent as it seems. To obtain said drugs one must have knowingly done business with a known criminal completing an illegal transaction. Now since one wasn't caught in the act ok I'll overlook "possession" .

But along with knowingly conducting criminal transactions even as the buyer that same buyer frequently has knowingly committed other criminal acts like burglary, theft, robbery etc. It's not just the drugs it's a person of poor character. The drugs MIGHT have lowered impulse control but if something like getting "high" lowers one's barriers between moral & immoral or legal & illegal I'd say one had issues already.

One can get high as a kite, float away to Pluto on their own dime for all I care. But once existing laws are broken and the junky tries to do it on somebody else's dime through crime it is the public's business and say as to wether their personal habit is a crime or not.
 
I don't know for sure but most addicts that steal do so because they need the money for drugs, no other reason. If we can at least get those people in rehab they don't need to steal for drugs.

i know there is no easy solution, it seems to be a vicious circle, I'm just suggesting trying something different. What we are doing now is simply not working at all.
 
LynnD said:
I don't know for sure but most addicts that steal do so because they need the money for drugs, no other reason. If we can at least get those people in rehab they don't need to steal for drugs.

i know there is no easy solution, it seems to be a vicious circle, I'm just suggesting trying something different. What we are doing now is simply not working at all.
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I'd start with possession charges although a 10 day supply is too high a number for me. I'd also modify confiscation laws. If it wasn't the drug dealers property period I would not confiscate unless it's known that the owner knew which is aid & abetting, facilitating or conspiracy. Criminal charges against the property owner need to accompany confiscations.

And if a burglar, robber etc cries they were addicted I would still prosecute and take that into considering at sentencing. No special court or asterisk. Make it clear violate a rehab sentence and it's jail time the other criminals get.

I'd also encourage giving people a second chance including the hiring of ex cons in general. Certain crimes should disqualify a criminal immediately, legally or common sense wise. lf more ex cons had a mainstream legal job perhaps they would stay out of the criminal life a little more often. And as with most issues you have to educate the kids early. I'd make all kids experience a scared straight program or look at a real jail cell, make them stare at it and think about life in it.

I'll be the first to admit there a multiple reasons or causes for crime and addiction. But there are also a lot of selfish, arrogant or ignorant people out more than willing & capable of criminal acts. Since there are multiple reasons or causes that probably means more than one solution to the problem of drugs and crime.
 
Falcon said:
Whatever helps but I think AS is right. Too many young kids are too eager to try it and then they get hooked.

Addiction is one thing, but other crimes are committed to pay for the drugs. It's like a dog chasing its tail.
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Falcon, I think the evidence is in that the experiment in Portugal is working and that decriminalizing drug use actually cuts drug use including heroin. And if drug use drops, crimes to support those habits is likely to also drop.

In Portugal, when someone is found to have any sort of drugs on them, instead of jailing them, they are offered support to kick the habit and support to develop a new and healthier lifestyle. I think it's 'high' time (;) did you catch that?) to emulate what they've done. Wouldn't we like to see a 50% drop in drug use?
 
WhatInThe said:
Absolutely do not end the war on drugs. Fight it a different way but "legalization" isn't necessarily the panacea for every country.

The problem with any study or policy is that what might work in one country might not work in another. Too many variables that could prevent success. First is the size and demographics of the population. Portugal is a fraction of the size of the US geographically. Politics and the economy are different. All those factors could alter the results of such a policy in the US or any other nation for that matter.

Then I find the 10 day supply a little too much quite frankly. 10 day supply could mean 10 different customers for some. Alcohol is already "a" problem that causes lying, cheating and stealing. Alcohol creates motor vehicle havoc(what percentage of the Portuguese population drives or owns a car) Same could be said for pot in Colorado. Look at the problems abuse of legal painkillers are having, true criminal behavior is contributing to most but never the less a legal substance has become a big problem.

By legalizing potentially dangerous behavior and substances it takes away personal responsibility and gives those who made poor choices an excuse, rationalization and literally one get out of jail free card.
Click to expand...


Sorry but I don't think that the size or demographics of Portugal vs. the USA matters, the point is, their drug abuse has dropped by half. Or are you suggesting that North Americans are too stupid to take advantage of the help that Portugal offers their users instead of just throwing them in jail?

Alcohol causes more problems that smoking pot does and alcohol is addictive whereas pot isn't. I've even read a study by an insurance corporation in the US where they found that after study the stats, pot actually seems to be the cause of fewer accidents as those folks tend to drive slower and more cautiously whereas alcohol gives people the feeling that they are invincible and more often speed and drive recklessly. http://www.prweb.com/releases/prweb2012/4/prweb9375729.htm?PID=6149635

And this article printed in Scientific American shows that pot smoking has no impact on cancer rates despite it having higher deposits in the lungs. The use of marijuana doesn't seem to be the problem that nay-sayers declare it is, at all. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/large-study-finds-no-link/ In fact, it's surmised that the THC in the pot actually kills the aging cells in the lungs before they become cancerous.

I even found an article in the Washington Post that says that traffic accidents have actually decreased in Colorado since they legalized the use of pot.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...lities-in-colorado-are-at-near-historic-lows/
 
Debby said:
Sorry but I don't think that the size or demographics of Portugal vs. the USA matters, the point is, their drug abuse has dropped by half. Or are you suggesting that North Americans are too stupid to take advantage of the help that Portugal offers their users instead of just throwing them in jail?

Alcohol causes more problems that smoking pot does and alcohol is addictive whereas pot isn't. I've even read a study by an insurance corporation in the US where they found that after study the stats, pot actually seems to be the cause of fewer accidents as those folks tend to drive slower and more cautiously whereas alcohol gives people the feeling that they are invincible and more often speed and drive recklessly. http://www.prweb.com/releases/prweb2012/4/prweb9375729.htm?PID=6149635

And this article printed in Scientific American shows that pot smoking has no impact on cancer rates despite it having higher deposits in the lungs. The use of marijuana doesn't seem to be the problem that nay-sayers declare it is, at all. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/large-study-finds-no-link/ In fact, it's surmised that the THC in the pot actually kills the aging cells in the lungs before they become cancerous.

I even found an article in the Washington Post that says that traffic accidents have actually decreased in Colorado since they legalized the use of pot.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...lities-in-colorado-are-at-near-historic-lows/
Click to expand...

Accidents involving pot have increased. Fewer accidents as a whole could be from anything from technology to better roads & traffic management.

http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/illinois-crash-data-shows-more-fatal-car-16593/

Look for dui's involving pot as a whole to increase once police have a field sobriety test for drugs like the breathalyzer for alcohol.

As far as addiction goes there is ever increasing evidence that pot addiction can be real, might not be rampant yet but a real possibility. It is early in the era of "legalized" pot.

http://www.philly.com/philly/health...t_Addiction__May_Be_Real__Study_Suggests.html

Many talking head rehab experts have mentioned that people with multiple addictions including pot find that pot is becoming the toughest substance to get them to quit.

Demographics do matter in Portugal v US policy if for no other reason legalizing pot in the much larger US would be based on a policy from a couple of much smaller countries. Part of the scientific process includes duplicating results under the same conditions. Different demographics, geography, politics, economies etc are different conditions. The same variables and conditions in Portugal would probably have to be present in the US or other countries for it to work. I don't want to turn Portuguese.
 
I've only tried pot once and didn't care for it, but I'm for legalizing it and no matter what links you post I don't think it's any worse than alcohol.

And I'm definitely for medical marijuana, if I needed it I would use it.

one can find statistics to prove or disprove everything under the sun on the web, I seldom believe any single one....you have to look at a lot of things....even something simple as the date of the article.
 
LynnD said:
I've only tried pot once and didn't care for it, but I'm for legalizing it and no matter what links you post I don't think it's any worse than alcohol.

And I'm definitely for medical marijuana, if I needed it I would use it.

one can find statistics to prove or disprove everything under the sun on the web, I seldom believe any single one....you have to look at a lot of things....even something simple as the date of the article.
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Never tried pot, the smell alone chases me away along with the fact most jobs I've had or applied for were DFWPs. I've had many of the so called addictive pain medications for pain/medical procedures and I never got that "high" feeling. I don't get it. Anything could be addictive but doesn't that come back on the individual to control their behavior. By legalizing things like pot it gives a person an excuse for bad habits & poor behavior. In some respects drugs are already "legalized" in that drug addiction is already used as an out by many when it comes to crime or even consequences/screw ups at the work place . Some are truely medically addicted I get that but many simply make bad choices and don't want to live with them.

I also find it ironic at the same time the country wants to legalize pot many legal and even otc drugs are being criminalized. Many drug stores require ID for and limit sudafed purchases. Many states want to all but ban legally prescribed and used pain medications because a minority is abusing them.

I as far as I am concerned people can do what they want but don't come crying to a judge after one robs a person " to pay for drugs " or to management at job saying they were "addicted" to legal drugs and that's why they screwed up, are always late or performing the job incompetently or negligently.
 
Well I'm one that doesn't agree with a ban on pain meds because some abuse them....that's another topic. I've used them also when needed and they are a lifesaver when your back spasms.
 
I would de-escalate enforcement or over use of drug policy & law by prosecutors. The prosecutors and police need to show better discretion when it comes to drug and other laws. I'll be the first to admit law enforcement is big business and big money for many even if it's cops doing 75-100k a year in overtime or prison companies being awarded millions in contracts.

But there still is a personal responsibility factor here. I just don't want to see excuse abuse which we're seeing already even in a criminalized drug world/country.
 
Maybe a little more common sense in who really is a criminal and who really could use rehab.

like I said before...we are NOT winning the war on drugs and changes have to be made. It all starts with the addiction.
 
WhatInThe said:
Accidents involving pot have increased. Fewer accidents as a whole could be from anything from technology to better roads & traffic management.

http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/illinois-crash-data-shows-more-fatal-car-16593/

Look for dui's involving pot as a whole to increase once police have a field sobriety test for drugs like the breathalyzer for alcohol.

As far as addiction goes there is ever increasing evidence that pot addiction can be real, might not be rampant yet but a real possibility. It is early in the era of "legalized" pot.

http://www.philly.com/philly/health...t_Addiction__May_Be_Real__Study_Suggests.html

Many talking head rehab experts have mentioned that people with multiple addictions including pot find that pot is becoming the toughest substance to get them to quit.

Demographics do matter in Portugal v US policy if for no other reason legalizing pot in the much larger US would be based on a policy from a couple of much smaller countries. Part of the scientific process includes duplicating results under the same conditions. Different demographics, geography, politics, economies etc are different conditions. The same variables and conditions in Portugal would probably have to be present in the US or other countries for it to work. I don't want to turn Portuguese.
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Actually, one of the links I posted answered your first point. 'Pot' remains in the system for a couple weeks so if you smoked a joint a week and a half ago, and had an accident now, it would register in your system. Apparently they can't measure your 'inebriation' level when it comes to pot, only that in the past couple weeks that you smoked it. So to say, based on an accident report and current tests, that pot causes more car accidents is erroneous.

Pot addiction isn't real. A cigarette smoker who can't smoke for a day begins to feel the anxiety and stress and physical effects of going without whereas a pot smoker doesn't. Now if you want to talk about 'habits' that's an entirely different thing. A person who chews their fingernails has a bad habit, a person who smokes every day can have a 'habit' but true addiction is different than a habit.

And the link you posted is an article based on a study done by the Federal Government who has deemed marijuana as bad as heroin, etc. Of course they are going to say that. Sort of reminds me of when government was funding 'Reefer Madness' propaganda. I started smoking when I was 15, then quit when I was 25 and yes, it took a few efforts to quit but only because the people I had as friends didn't quit so it was there. But no physical effects, none of that baloney. That's like saying that my kid was 'addicted' to sucking her thumb 'because she couldn't stop herself'.

Besides, a study that only considers 127 teenagers between the ages of 14 and 19 is hardly conclusive to anything is it? If I posted a study that small that said consumption of meat was bad for you, you wouldn't accept it at all.

Go ask your President about his addiction. It becomes a habit, and isn't an addiction as is alcoholism, cigarette smoking, heroin use.....
 

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