For a girl, acting like a bloke isnt the most appealing behaviour in my old fashioned view

grahamg

grahamg

Old codger
Location
South of Manchester, UK
I am often found writing about friends and acquaintances on this forum, and thank goodness none of them find their way here, and discover I'm talking about them, or I'd certainly be in trouble!

However, they do seem to through up talking points or something maybe worthy of discussions, and the "good friend", (and she is a good friend, with a warm heart, and many other strong points in spite of whatever I'm going to say that is negative), has a tendency to try to "out do men in some of our usually boorish male characteristics"!!!

Here are some examples:
"Laughing loudly at ones own jokes, regardless of whether they are funny"!

"Trying to dominate conversations"!

"Pretending you know more about cars (or all kinds of equipment) than you do"!

"Being hardnosed about everything, (business wise, or whether someone deserves sympathy)"!

"Trying to outdo the lads as to how laddish you can behave", (I know this one is a bit nebulous but think Private Eye magazine and the Yobs and Yobettes cartoons where drinking heavily is a sign of being normal/desirable etc.
https://flic.kr/p/3H9b9E
)

Okay, that's the discussion point laddish behaviour on the part of girls or women, and before the hails of criticism come in as I know will be heading my way, I'm not trying to put forward the idea all women should go to finishing schools to learn social etiquette!

Nor do I want a return to "traditional values, (or do I, maybe I do generally, though the way men behave too!), and it isn't that many capable, and very strong women cannot be very very attractive too, though "in general", "in my view", it is possible to do this and not "ape men", (i.e. not try to be like a stereotype of a kind of man).
 

I should have added the word "egotistical" to the OP, because that is what a lot of men are isn't it, and nowadays I'm suggesting some women choose to try to copy this characteristic and kind of behaviour.

Other laddish behaviours I'm objecting to include:

"Eating noisily"

"Thinking you always know best, or have chosen the best buy, made the best choice, and whatever "buy", "choice", or what you might think you know is always "naff" or "second rate"!

"Never admitting fault"!

Some research here:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_of_'ladette'_cultures_in_secondary_schools

More here:
https://www.academia.edu/877137/_Se...cultural_imag_inations_es_of_young_femininity

Quote:
"There is concern that in contemporary popular culture traditional gender roles are becoming even more entrenched, with femininity increasingly defined around notions of (hyper, hetero-normative) “sexiness.” At the same time, it seems that certain aspects of masculinity, namely sexual hedonism and social, drinking-centred hedonism, have conditionally opened up to young women."
 
Can I be clear that there was no intention whatsoever to open up any of the contentious discussion points you've raised at all.

Please can the thread follow the route of the two links provided, and perhaps my very good friends possibly being feminist influenced, or showing behaviour where she feels the need to prove she's s good as a man, though it could equally be that she grew up with three brothers, no doubt all very competitive, and raised two boys of her own, so pretty much surrounded by male company in all her family life, (with the exception of her mother of course).
 
Such as this one, (quoted above too):
https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_of_'ladette'_cultures_in_secondary_schools

Quote:
‘Laddish’ attitudes and behaviours are central to current discourses on boys’ ‘underachievement’, as they are seen by many people to impede the progress of some boys in school. Whilst the vast majority of concern about ‘laddishness’ has, to date, focused upon boys, according to media reports there are now good reasons to worry about girls. Anecdotes from teachers and reports in the media suggest that some schoolgirls are now acting ‘laddishly’, that they are ‘ladettes’. This paper explores ‘ladette’ cultures in secondary schools, drawing upon interview data from100 pupils and 30 teachers. It tackles and discusses the following questions:
(a) What does the term ‘ladette’ mean to pupils and teachers?
(b) Do school‐aged ‘ladettes’ ‘exist’—and if so, what are they like inside and outside of school?
(c) In what ways are ‘ladettes’ similar to, and different from, ‘lads’?
(d) Are teachers concerned about ‘ladettes’?
(e) Are ‘ladette’ behaviours on the increase?
 
More from the other article given above:
https://www.academia.edu/877137/_Se...cultural_imag_inations_es_of_young_femininity

Quote:
Conclusions

"In this article I have suggested that certain aspects of contemporary femininity that have been largely conceived of as “excessive” or “transgressive” performativities for “normative” white, middle-class female bodies can no longer be viewed this way. The prominent place in contemporary media of both “s*xy girl” and “laddish girl” figures suggests the ways in which young femininity is popularly imag(in)ed as commonly involving both excessive hetero-normative “s*xiness” and “laddish” transgressions. In the post-feminist post-girl-power era, these kind of “free” and “out there” “wild” feminine subjectivities are constituted as somewhat aspirational for girls and young women to embody. Notions of agentic participation and “authenticity” are also figured on the particular reality shows discussed in ways which serve to mark “authentic” feminine s*xy display as somewhat separate from material or economic considerations, and “laddish” display as a kind of “authentic” and intrinsically motivated social rebellion. At the same time, these figures are both also perhaps constituted as more seemingly normative and available. We then need to ask further questions about the affects of such discursive and imagistic constitutions of “reality” and “authenticity” on girls and young women, especially those from outside upper- and middle-class economic brackets.

I have gone on to suggest that “laddish girl” and “s*xy girl” figures may act to affectively balance or support each other within popular culture and media discourses about young women and social change. In their normalisation and ready availability within our shared cultural imaginations, “laddish girl” figures may function as counter-balances to the intense normativity of the “s*xy girl” figure. The “laddish girl” figure can readily and easily serve as a signal of “social change” and “gender-convergence” at a time when feminine appearance and subjectivity in media representations often seems so resolutely, ubiquitously and hetero-normatively “s*xy.” Popular framings of “laddishness” as such, that is, as “masculine” or as a form of gender-convergence, may serve to further “undo” or “disarticulate” (McRobbie 2009) the importance of continued feminist intervention in what is still an incredibly gendered and sexist media landscape. In a contemporary visual and media culture that appears to be often marked by an intensification of hetero-normative s*xual difference and a “pornification” of representations of female bodies in particular, a figure such as the “ladette” is easily deployed in media discourse to act as a kind of affective symbol of change. Likewise, the “real” “s*xy girl” perhaps provides us with a common and readily available image of feminine excess at a time when young women themselves are often conceived of as disrupting the long standing gender order.Contemporary young femininity consists both of the display of hyper-feminine “s*xy” bodily properties, and the display of “laddish” brazenness and lack of “care”—in its various meanings—regarding the public perception of a young women’s traditional feminine demureness, purity and domesticity. When young women are presented as still clearly remaining within a paradigm of hyper-feminine appearance, as they are in much contemporary media, signals of a more traditionally “masculine” attitude towards public licentiousness and social transgression (and the implicit rejection of, or at least ambiguity towards, domesticity and care-giving) can serve as rallying points in arguments about how feminism has, for better or worse, made its way into popular culture and young women’s lives. This may be one important ideological and affective value (Tyler 2008, 19) produced by the prominent co-existence of “sexy girl” and “laddish girl” figures within the contemporary cultural landscape."
 
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oldaunt said:
""a young women’s traditional feminine demureness, purity and domesticity. """

Are you kidding me? Seriously?
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Are you aware that you're referring to comments made in an article and have absolutely nothing to do with me, (whether or not I'd be in the mood to "kid you"!).

Are you seriously unable to read quotes, and look at links helpfully provided for everyone and come to sensible understandings of the arguments being put forward by whom, and should you have an issue with whatever article it was you'd better send them your comments as I simply cant help you, ("NO KIDDING"!)>
 
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JustDave said:
No, don't bite. It's not the most important thread going on right now, anyway. I'm just here as a voyeur of human idiosyncrasy. And I'm not that proud of it either.
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Are you new to the forum, (as well as one of the other guys, who seems a bit disconcerted by a comment he didn't understand the origins of though it was clear enough where it came from in my view)?

I ask because it is of interest, and of course, over time its possible to get an understanding of where folks stand on most issues, and whether they're happy to articulate them, (but dont let me influence you of you wish to keep schtum :whistle: ).
 
Judycat said:
Nope not going to bite. 🎣 It's a gentleman's discussion after all. Teehee.
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I'm no expert obviously, either on your level of "laddishness", or other qualities, but were I to take a guess I'd say you're pretty much whatever you wish to be, (and I doubt I'd try to argue with whatever that might be! :unsure::sneaky: :)).
 
Warrigal said:
I am not laddish but I am a bit animated on social occasions. However, I really don't give a toss what the men think about my presentation and/or behaviour.

Keep chattering away, Gentlemen, but know this, women no longer define themselves the same way that we did half a century ago. Do try to keep up.
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Love this response. About what i made 'bold': That's hard to do when you're nostalgic for imagined 'simpler' 'better' times, ignoring the realities of those times for anyone who isn't like you in all ways.
 
feywon said:
Sadly he is not. To each their own... i just peek into see others' reactions to the OP. Some times revealing, sometimes fun.
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See whots happened,....., someone else who can't read a "QUOTE" and understand this means it is text taken from an article, hence not the responsibility of the "gentleman" posting it on the forum, (so "do keep up "ursel"!). :(
 
Warrigal said:
I am not laddish but I am a bit animated on social occasions. However, I really don't give a toss what the men think about my presentation and/or behaviour.
Keep chattering away, Gentlemen, but know this, women no longer define themselves the same way that we did half a century ago. Do try to keep up.
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No real need to "keep up" when you're either not looking, or only looking for "an old fashioned gal"! :)
 
feywon said:
Love this response. About what i made 'bold': That's hard to do when you're nostalgic for imagined 'simpler' 'better' times, ignoring the realities of those times for anyone who isn't like you in all ways.
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Here's a thought for someone to consider:
"If", as the research papers above suggest, "laddishness ", (or maybe better described as boorish/loutish behaviour), is on the increase in young women, or being encouraged even, this won't make them easy company for anyone, potential partners or no, male or female. Then this is made even worse in my view, not least because I suspect their new behaviours/characteristics/faults, will be added to those faults they already had, and this unhappy situation won't change either, in most of those individuals I'd guess, if they similarly lack insight into their own failings, or ability to accept them, as many men do!

(I know, all " blah, blah, blah" :) )
 
For a girl, acting like a bloke isnt the most appealing behaviour in my old fashioned view

"has a tendency to try to out do men in some of our usually boorish male characteristics"!!!

"Laughing loudly at ones own jokes, regardless of whether they are funny"!

"Trying to dominate conversations"!

"Pretending you know more about cars (or all kinds of equipment) than you do"!

"Being hardnosed about everything"
Click to expand...

Yea, you know I don't think any of the listed behaviours are particularly appealing, whether it be male or female. I never hug around people like that, never went to bars(pubs) and such.
 
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