God, or not? A Christian Discussion

@fuzzybuddy
That's a no brainer.

Ten Commandments

You shall have no other gods

You shall not make idols

Having faith outside those commandments

My guess is even those people that never did harm to others won't be going here.

According to the Bible, heaven is described as a beautiful city, a glorious dwelling place of God, and a paradise beyond imagination. It's depicted with streets paved in gold, gates made of pearls, and walls constructed of jasper and various precious stones. A crystal-clear river flows from the throne of God, and the tree of life is prominent, symbolizing eternal life and abundance.

Any guesses where they end up?
 

It’s not complicated, Olivia. For example, when I was a child, I had a genuine belief in the existence of Santa Claus. So, while my belief was real, Santa Claus was not.
I probably am going to hate myself for this. but i can't have faith without belief. l had belief starting as a child, And weren't we
told we must become as a child.
 
@fuzzybuddy
According to the Bible, heaven is described as a beautiful city, a glorious dwelling place of God, and a paradise beyond imagination. It's depicted with streets paved in gold, gates made of pearls, and walls constructed of jasper and various precious stones.
Sounds garish. Maybe not to a bronze age prophet.
 

I dunno if you've noticed. We all have different beliefs about how the universe works and our behaviour is based upon these beliefs. To a large part, these beliefs cannot be proven but "assumed", if that's the right word for it.

Even when we claim to be scientific, that itself is a claim to a system of thought or beliefs. Newton’s Laws of Motion are fundamental beliefs which led us to look at the universe in a certain way. We can easily prove that Newton’s Laws are false. All living things are able to move without external forces. We except living things from Newton’s Laws to enable us to continue developing these laws. But then, through scientific development itself, Newton’s Laws were found not to be entirely applicable. The most significant of these exceptions is the Big Bang theory.

The Big Bang itself contradicts Newton’s Laws. According to the Laws, there cannot be a Big Bang without something or someone setting it off. So one might argue either the Big Bang is true and Newton’s Laws are not or vice versa. And then argue that this proves that science is self-contradictory and therefore hogwash. Or argue that this proves that God exists.

Of course, there are complicated explanations as to why science is still valid and how we can still rely on Newton’s Laws and still believe in the Big Bang. And not believe in God.

When it comes to how we live our lives, it gets a lot more difficult. Some of the principles seem self-evident, thou shall not lie, etc. But, we lie all the time. Often for very good reasons. When it comes to beliefs that guide our behaviour, it is usually difficult to prove. Different societies have evolved different worldviews, and with it, different approaches to how we should live our lives. However, we believe that these rules must apply to everyone, and when other people don't live according to the same rules, it often leads to fights and wars.

We fought for other reasons as well. But we often use this Moral Law (or Natural Law, according to the Greeks) as the basis to determine what is good or bad, not just for ourselves but in judging others as well.

The Greeks concluded that because there is a Natural Law around morality, there are therefore moral principles which govern our lives. Now that we're talking about laws around morality, the Greeks also believe that Beauty is not subjective but also part of the Natural Law. There are different kinds of beauty and Plato presented his Ladder of Love to describe a hierarchy of types of beauty.

This Natural Law that governs everything, from Truth to Morality to Beauty, is referred to as logos by the Greeks, and adopted by the Romans. And John, in the beginning of his Gospel said that what the Romans refer to as logos is God.
 
I probably am going to hate myself for this. but i can't have faith without belief. l had belief starting as a child, And weren't we told we must become as a child.

Olivia, I think you may be conflating two different points, yours and mine, without realizing the distinction. You said you can’t have faith without belief, and I agree with that. But I never questioned that. My point was simply that the existence of belief doesn’t necessarily make the object of that belief real. As an example, I mentioned how, as a child, I truly believed in Santa Claus. My belief was real, but Santa Claus was not. That’s all I was illustrating. Belief can be sincere and powerful, even when it turns out to be mistaken.
 
So according to your argument l am mistaken. Fine.

Olivia, you're still missing the point I was making. I never said you were mistaken, and I never said your God isn’t real. I simply said that while one’s belief in God may be real, that alone doesn’t prove that God is real. That’s the only distinction I was trying to make between the sincerity of belief and the question of what actually exists.
 
Olivia, you're still missing the point I was making. I never said you were mistaken, and I never said your God isn’t real. I simply said that while one’s belief in God may be real, that alone doesn’t prove that God is real. That’s the only distinction I was trying to make between the sincerity of belief and the question of what actually exists.
l get your point. We just think differently. l think in images. you think with words in the dictionary. And we read each other
in the best way we know how, l doubt that l make much sense make to you.
 
Olivia, you're still missing the point I was making. I never said you were mistaken, and I never said your God isn’t real. I simply said that while one’s belief in God may be real, that alone doesn’t prove that God is real. That’s the only distinction I was trying to make between the sincerity of belief and the question of what actually exists.
l am missing your point because l don't agree with it.
 
l get your point. We just think differently. l think in images. you think with words in the dictionary. And we read each other in the best way we know how, l doubt that l make much sense make to you.

Olivia, this isn’t about how we think, whether in images or words. I was making a clear distinction between belief and reality. The point remains: a belief can be completely sincere and still not correspond to what actually exists. And there is nothing complicated about that.
 
l am missing your point because l don't agree with it.

Olivia, you said you're missing my point because you don't agree with it, but that doesn't follow. If you're missing the point, then by definition you don’t fully understand it. And if you don’t understand it, you can’t really disagree with it. So, you’re just reacting to something you think I said. Bottom-line, you’re not making any sense.
 
"A paradise beyond imagination" sounds wonderful. The rest? Uh, no. I don't understand why such. It does not sound desirable to me.
Paradise is an imaginary place we construct where our mind is in a constant state of peace and/or a place of great beauty. There is no gold or diamonds in my paradise. That kind of material pleasure is part of what drives mankind to greed and avarice. It should be part of Hell. But of course, we are free to imagine paradise as anything that floats our boat.

I've at times thought that if there is a Heaven, it would be in some malleable form that each of us could mold it into a thing of his own making. For some it might mean being waited on my hundreds of slaves and virgins. No wait. If that's what one seeks, he would be excluded from Heaven and toil away in eternity following orders from a master who cared little about the welfare of those he owned.

But this whole thing can get complicated that way.
 
Newton's laws of motion hold good for most 'ordinary' situations. When you start looking at things like the 'Big bang' , Newtons laws no longer apply, so it is no use trying to 'rubbish' them. Getting back to Earth, the notion that all living creatures can move without an external force is untrue.
According to Newton's third law of motion, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When we walk, we exert force backward on the ground by pushing the ground by our foot and the same reaction force is exerted by the ground in the forwarding direction and this makes us able to move.
 
Last edited:
Newton's laws of motion hold good for most 'ordinary' situations. When you start looking at things like the 'Big bang' , Newtons laws no longer apply, so it is no use trying to 'rubbish' them. Getting back to Earth, the notion that all living creatures can move without an external force is untrue.
According to Newton's third law of motion, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When we walk, we exert force backward on the ground by pushing the ground by our foot and the same reaction force is exerted by the ground in the forwarding direction and this makes us able to move.
This is interesting. I get hung up by the requirement that the force required to move my feet has to be external, as in the case of my foot being hit by a cue ball on life's billiard table. The force that moves my foot is an internal force created by chemical reactions that activate muscles in my body. A living thing creates it's own force.

OK if you want to follow an infinite regression, what is the force that creates those chemical reactions, and back and back? Well, it's our nuclear reactor, the Sun. As long as that is there putting out so much force that most of it radiates out into space, a fraction of which hits our planet, we have more force than we need. When the Sun goes out, there is no more force, at least none that does me any good.

Although one wonders what all that force that radiated out into space is doing. But that's a separate issue. OK Newton was wrong about things, but he was also right about things. He was part of the dynamic ever growing body of science that changes as we learn more. His laws of motion are still useful and help us understand what makes jet planes fly through the air.

I feel like this adds little to the discussion, but I enjoyed writing it.
 
I'm reminded of an answer a contestant on a T V game show gave to: ""What is something that can make the earth move?" She answered, "Heavy rain." :ROFLMAO:
 
Worth remembering that Newton also was instrumental in developing Calculus. There was an acrimonious dispute with the German mathematician Gottfried Leibniz who had published his work on calculus first, but was accused of plagiarising Newton's work.
Than sounds vaguely familiar, but I may have have it confused with one of so many other contested rights to an important discovery.
 
@fuzzybuddy
That's a no brainer.

Ten Commandments

You shall have no other gods

You shall not make idols

Having faith outside those commandments

My guess is even those people that never did harm to others won't be going here.

According to the Bible, heaven is described as a beautiful city, a glorious dwelling place of God, and a paradise beyond imagination. It's depicted with streets paved in gold, gates made of pearls, and walls constructed of jasper and various precious stones. A crystal-clear river flows from the throne of God, and the tree of life is prominent, symbolizing eternal life and abundance.

Any guesses where they end up?

The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament. Truthfully, the New Testament is supposed to build upon the Old Testament. But there are so many heinous acts by God in the Old Testament, that it's a long way back for me.

I dunno if you've noticed. We all have different beliefs about how the universe works and our behaviour is based upon these beliefs. To a large part, these beliefs cannot be proven but "assumed", if that's the right word for it.

We must be careful. We must not confuse belief, with blind belief. One is supported by evidence, the other is not (as far as I can see). Blind faith or belief is not on an equal standing with belief in an evidential belief.


Even when we claim to be scientific, that itself is a claim to a system of thought or beliefs. Newton’s Laws of Motion are fundamental beliefs which led us to look at the universe in a certain way. We can easily prove that Newton’s Laws are false. All living things are able to move without external forces. We except living things from Newton’s Laws to enable us to continue developing these laws. But then, through scientific development itself, Newton’s Laws were found not to be entirely applicable. The most significant of these exceptions is the Big Bang theory.

Easily prove Newton's laws are false? Please explain. Give us an example. For the record, for me, you are 100% incorrect here. The expansion of the universe follows Newton's Laws. Newton never explaining the singularity, but that's an aside. Frankly, we don't know much about the singularity, not yet. We simply know it seems to have existed.

The Big Bang itself contradicts Newton’s Laws. According to the Laws, there cannot be a Big Bang without something or someone setting it off. So one might argue either the Big Bang is true and Newton’s Laws are not or vice versa. And then argue that this proves that science is self-contradictory and therefore hogwash. Or argue that this proves that God exists.

But it doesn't contradict anything. Newton was a Christian, and his studies were hamstrung by that. He saw the universe through the eyes of a believer, and that prevented him from seeing everything we'd like to know.

Of course, there are complicated explanations as to why science is still valid and how we can still rely on Newton’s Laws and still believe in the Big Bang. And not believe in God.

Science is valid because it is the best way to make discoveries, and have them validated, that man knows. It is valid because experimental evidence exists to validate it. Science doesn't aim to be "right", or "correct". So, if something is accepted scientifically, but is later found to be incorrect or nuanced, then we accept the new evidence. Science doesn't aim to be a singular truth, it is simply the best explanation based on available evidence, that we have. There is no battle between religion and science, only between evidential belief, and blind faith.

Newton, as I've said, was a christian, and his beliefs were within that framework of beliefs.

I
When it comes to how we live our lives, it gets a lot more difficult. Some of the principles seem self-evident, thou shall not lie, etc. But, we lie all the time. Often for very good reasons. When it comes to beliefs that guide our behaviour, it is usually difficult to prove. Different societies have evolved different worldviews, and with it, different approaches to how we should live our lives. However, we believe that these rules must apply to everyone, and when other people don't live according to the same rules, it often leads to fights and wars.

Humans are instinctively social animals. This means social rules must exist. Norms are established. Different societies, grown in different environments, vary in their behaviors. However, it's all due to a need for a cohesive set of rules for humans to live together. This is perfectly understandable.

I much prefer to believe there is intelligence outside of the universe. So cold and lonely without it.

This is understandable, it's an emotional reaction. For me, I don't find the laws of nature either cold or lonely. It's a beautiful cycle that, ultimately, does not care about me individually. I am part - a very very small part - of a cyclical existence. I'm as valid, and irrelevant, as a rock. Once you accept that, there's a beauty to be had from knowing that you're not simply a part of the Earth, you're a part of the entire universe, from its inception to its end. It's incredible.

I'm reminded of something, of Gold. Gold is only formed in stars. Neutron stars. It comes to earth across time, but is not created here. Isn't that simply amazing?
 
Olivia, you said you're missing my point because you don't agree with it, but that doesn't follow. If you're missing the point, then by definition you don’t fully understand it. And if you don’t understand it, you can’t really disagree with it. So, you’re just reacting to something you think I said. Bottom-line, you’re not making any sense.
Keep it it up and people are going to think we're married.
 
l'm always searching but still committed to my belief and faith. l believe in debating when it's not an attack but
is sharing of thoughts and ideas. Thank you for.asking. l'm done with this particular debate.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top