Have difficulty believing the Bible.

God did not write the Bible. The Bible was put together by many prophets and scholars. A lot of the writings and teachings were taken from scrolls. Moses played a big part in putting together many of these writings. Because some of the stories in the Old Testament were written by man, their authenticity can be argumentative and often is.

Honestly, I become upset when I hear people refer to the OT as a book of fairy tales. The stories may not be 100% accurate, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t true or didn’t happen. Mistakes may have been made when scholars attempted to interpret them. Names of people may not be accurate.

I remember during one of my Sunday School classes when I was just a small boy, our teacher said we have two choices in our beliefs. We can either believe in creation or evolution (science). I didn’t even know what the word ‘evolution’ met, so I asked. Her explanation was to ask me if I believed that I was created or did I evolve from some other living form. I decided to go with being created.

It’s really about faith. In times of desperation, who do you turn to?
 

Em in Ohio said:
What kind of all-powerful god (the father) allows an eighteen year old child to brutally slaughter 19 young children? It isn't a god that deserves my respect - or anyone else's devotion - in my opinion.
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Free will makes it all the shooter's choice and God does not interfere with a person's free will. Think of all the wars and torment especially in the twentieth century. God does not approve, but He does not intervene either.
 
My dislike of God is the transference of my relationship to my paternal father. I know weird, right? This is the way my mind works. Watching anything to do with father/son relationships and/or family makes me want to puke.
At the time of my father's death, I did not know things about him until later, without closure. I'm not afraid to explore the depth of my psyche, I am waiting for the proper tools.
 
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C50 said:
Just a few weeks ago I had a religious friend tell me the earth/universe is only 6000 years old. We debated for a few minutes and I asked him if there was nothing until God created everything where did God come from? Where is God's place? His reply was god is transadental and humans don't have the intellectual intelligence to understand all that he is.
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Believers are just that, they believe something for which there is no clear factual or scientific basis. Once you accept that you can't really debate with them, its apples vs oranges. I consider myself agnostic, I do give believers the possibility of being right. I just don't see it myself.
Lara said:
I could answer all these excellent questions and posts but I won't...
Do I hear a thunderous applause from the rafters?
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I hope you do answer, your posts are always interesting. Even if we don't agree I appreciate a clear presentation of anyone's beliefs.
chic said:
I think God's message to us all is to love one another. There would be less evil in the world if we loved and respected each other.
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Good words to live by, even if you don't believe in God.
 
Lara said:
I could answer all these excellent questions and posts but I won't...
Do I hear a thunderous applause from the rafters? :giggle: I will answer them later though.
I'm the only one in this thread so far representing "the other side" so I have to come back...or do I?

I don't think it will matter here. I don't think anyone here cares to read my posts.
Not because I haven't changed anyone's mind. That's not my goal. But because I'm a bit of an irritant.
That's why there aren't any faith based believers in this thread...yet. That's unfortunate.
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@Lara, I always enjoy reading your posts, not sure what you mean by "the other side", there's a considerable portion of believers in Christ in this thread(myself included). I don't know exactly what you mean with the term "faith based believers", but I suspect in your(Fundamentalist? Evangelical?) world that has a specific connotation. Please feel free to express your beliefs, keep in mind others have just as strong(and valid) beliefs as well.
 
@Mr. Ed >>>" Have difficulty believing the Bible."

Why ought you simply believe because authorities in denominations you were part of in your past stated such as dogma? That is and has been for centuries obviously a self-serving agenda to control flocks, especially since it was often hijacked by the powerful and their politicians. Today, even many prominent scholars and theologians don't believe in inerrancy or infallibility nor do some denominations. Some won't state so publicly while such is obvious from their writings. Since much scholarly material written over centuries is for the first time given the Internet, now available to the public, one can see many scholars then and now also didn't rigidly believe such. There is much on the Internet one can now read about that controversy. Inerrancy and infallibility are primarily creations of 19th Century fundamentalists. The following shows that attitude on a fundamentalist site per below:

https://israelmyglory.org/article/errant-or-inerrant-that-is-the-question/
snippets:

In the Age of Enlightenment (Age of Reason, as it was known in the 17th and 18th centuries in Europe), philosophical rationalism crept into theology and began producing an antisupernatural way of thinking that undermined seminaries, Bible schools, denominations, and churches...

Some people say the Bible is inerrant on doctrine and theology but not, for example, on matters of history and science. But such a statement is fallacious... A God of truth, who cannot lie, could not and would not authorize error. Doing so would contradict truth...

Thus, if Scripture did not reveal truth about history and the physical world (no matter how major or minor), it could not be trusted at all. God cannot err, and the Scripture that proceeds from Him is the inspired, verbal, infallible Word of God. Therefore, the Bible in its original autographs is inerrant...

On October 26–28, 1978, 300 leading evangelicals met at the Hyatt Regency O’Hare in Chicago to craft what became known as the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. This statement is one of the most complete definitions on the affirmation of scriptural inerrancy.

The above tersely shows many theologians are intensely afraid if their followers cannot totally trust the Bible and are then left to their own ignorant interpretations, they are likely to believe almost anything. On the other hand if an ordinary person actually reads and studies available material today, they will find a great deal of the Bible believable and of great value at the level of "oral history". Not believing The Flood covered the whole Earth dogma does not mean one cannot be a Christian. No problemo for this person.

For example, if one want's to read what New Testament early Christian first century beliefs were about, I would highly recommend starting by reading St. Paul's "Book of Romans".

https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb20/rom/1/1/s_1047001
 
My faith has turned into reality. Is faith necessary to understand God? Without faith, Christian beliefs and practices are not the same as before.
 
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Lara said:
You asked so here is my faith based response:
Why did God change His demeanor in the New Testament? Because He loved man despite their sins and wanted to show us His love and offer His forgiveness of our wrongs, a gift for the taking, by sending a Savior (Jesus) to save us from our sins and pay our punishment.
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My teachings of Christianity came straight out of the draconian Roman Catholic version. Whenever I questioned whether Adam & Eve, were the first humans, which according to the Jewish, Islamic, and Christian religions, they were, and all humans have descended from them.

As stated in the Bible, Adam and Eve were created by God to take care of His creation, to populate the earth, and to have a relationship with Him. I asked, was that a metaphor? Remember, they had two sons, Cane & Able.

Abel, in the Old Testament, second son of Adam and Eve, who was slain by his older brother, Cain (Genesis 4:1–16). According to Genesis, Abel, a shepherd, offered the Lord the firstborn of his flock. The Lord respected Abel's sacrifice but did not respect that offered by Cain. In a jealous rage, Cain murdered Abel.

So when I asked about procreation, given that one son was slain, one was vilified and no other woman, other than Eve is ever mentioned, my typical Roman Catholic answer was: "You little heathen," each syllable would be accompanied by a slap around the head.

Therefore I must assume that I should believe every word in the bible, chapter & verse, or on the day of judgement, God will slap me around the head with every syllable, just to knock some sense into me.

And there you have it.
 
I don't read the Bible, never liked reading the Bible. My wife reads the Bible and has morning devotion every day. It's not my thing. Even in Bible college I only read what I had to. Biblical mysticism was interesting but not permanently. Everything I understand about God is in me and cannot be removed because God is the who that I am.
 
Nathan said:
People define God by their own perceptions. Jesus' re-defined God's position, taking pretty much a 180 deg. turn about in attitude.
Jesus was a renegade, some modern so-called Christians profess to "love Jesus" but they don't love his teachings.
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Amen to that!
Over 2000 years ago he spoke the words of love and acceptance, and nonjudgment.
Over 2000 years later people still don't get it!

Matthew 5-7
 
chic said:
Free will makes it all the shooter's choice and God does not interfere with a person's free will. Think of all the wars and torment especially in the twentieth century. God does not approve, but He does not intervene either.
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Why not? If the god in question is all powerful and loving, (other than the "free-will" argument please) why not intervene and save the young children from terrifying deaths? Why not spare their mothers and fathers this unbelievable grief? Bottom line, I have no respect for the version of god under discussion.
 
Mr. Ed said:
I’ve heard one of the main objections regarding homosexuality is same-sex relationship do not procreate the species. If this is true, the same law should apply planned parenthood, birth control and contraception.

Why is God so angry in the Old Testament. God ruled as a dictator, opposing God meant suffering and death sometimes in great numbers. God caused all kinds hardships to Job and his family on wager with the devil. However, to be fair, God limited the things the devil could do to Job.

The Old Testament is about God‘s sovereign authority and demand for respect. The Old Testament is based on male dominance and Patriarchal Rule. The Old Testament reflected the life and fears of the people living during that time.

Living BC must have been hard compared to life today.

Introduction of the New Testament changed God’s demeanor to lovey-dovey giving direct access to God through Jesus Christ. God becomes love, a far cry from Old Testament God. Why?
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Simply put, large populations of people still live by the rules of the old testament...a few versions of it. Lots of them live in the Middle-East, for example, and yes, life is hard for many of them. But that doesn't weaken their faith at all.
 
Em in Ohio said:
Why not? If the god in question is all powerful and loving, (other than the "free-will" argument please) why not intervene and save the young children from terrifying deaths? Why not spare their mothers and fathers this unbelievable grief? Bottom line, I have no respect for the version of god under discussion.
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My grandmother was a baptist, and had the biggest effect on my religious indoctrination. My mother was Lutheran, but encouraged me to think on my own, although I don't think she imagined that might lead to atheism. But my grandmother! Oh boy, did I get a load from her. None of this thinking on your own stuff. If something doesn't make sense, disregard it and believe it anyway, or you go straight to Hell. By the way, Hell was a place where the Devil whipped you and made you shovel coal into a furnace. I guess that came from the fact that we heated our two flat with coal, and she considered that a burden, although she never actually did it.

Now, even at the age of five (no, better make that eight), I knew that I could not believe things that didn't make sense, but I could pretend things made sense. But no... That wasn't good enough for Grandma. You go straight to Hell if you're faking it. It was an impossible situation, and I realized I was Hell bound, no matter how good I tried to be.

With that bleak prognosis, I decided that maybe God wasn't the heartless entity I was given. So I started imagining an understanding God, or less severe gods, or maybe gods that had no physical form and allowed evolution to create mankind without his direction. But none of that worked, because no matter how appealing I imagined a god to be, or how fair he might be, or how much he reflected actual reality, the same result always happened; I could not find convincing evidence for the existence of any one of them, even the one's I liked.

So here I am a happy atheist trying to do no harm, and using ethics as my guide. Granted ethics, might be a subjective as morality, but I like my ethics, and I don't worry about pleasing an overseer who is hiding in the bushes and cannot be seen.
 
The book of James in the New Testament begins with, “Consider it pure joy whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance” (James 1:2-3).
I’m not a religious nut and not even a regular church goer but I have a belief that supernatural agency inhabits the world and can influence events. You can either believe or not, but I have always found that people who believe in a greater power are the happiest I've met.
 
Lara said:
C50 said^ The bible is a work of fiction that became a tool used to control others.

What's wrong with our Creator controlling what He created? He's our heavenly Father, we are His children.
What's wrong with an earthly father controlling his children?
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Control has been lost, or at least recorded history shows mankind worse than the 1s.try when "God" murdered all but Noah & his family.
2nd. try was setting his "son" up to be murdered.

Obviously that hasn't worked. With no bible guidance now what should mankind expect?
 
Knight said:
Control has been lost, or at least recorded history shows mankind worse than the 1s.try when "God" murdered all but Noah & his family.
2nd. try was setting his "son" up to be murdered.

Obviously that hasn't worked. With no bible guidance now what should mankind expect?
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If you truly believe in those words, in these days of biblical knowledge, then I'll let Lara respond if she so desires.

I'm too disgusted.
 
well...some thoughts.

Military historians have confirmed that the battle equipment and tactics mentioned in the Bible do, in fact, conform to known military history.

The Israeli government used Bible passages to discover abandoned copper mines and they were able to work them for ore.

The Israeli military was able to find some obscure mountain passes that were militarily advantageous. This was long before satellites and GPS mapping.

So, whatever else the Bible is, it absolutely does include some verifiable history.

++++

The Vatican Science council has hundreds of members who are Noble Prize winners in science. If science and modern science easily dismissed religion as being invalid, there might be an odd scientist or two, who believed in God. But that is not the case. Many of the world's greatest scientists do believe in God. And there was a book...by Eklund (?) who did a study that showed that the percentage of scientists who believe in God is about the same as that of the general public.

So, there is that.

Ben Franklin, one of the founders of all modern science, believed in God. Isaac Newton, one of the founders of all modern math, believed in God.

Johns Hopkins did a professional scientific study which indicated that cardiac patients who were prayed for recovered much better than those who were not prayed for.

There have been a range of professional scientific studies which seem to demonstrate the validity of ESP. A bunch of them were done in the old Soviet Union.

Acupuncture, meditation, Hatha Yoga and hypnotism all have medical benefits that have been proven by scientific studies. Yet each of those disciplines are thousands of years old and were not developed through science, but through spiritual / religious practices.

++

There are You Tube videos of Eben Alexander. He is a neuroscientist who had an NDE. The scary / interesting thing about him is that he reviewed the medical records and could see that at the time he saw the images of the afterlife, his brain was so filled with inflammation and illness, that it could not have produced the kind of images he saw.


So, that would mean that the images he saw were not produced from the brain.

Eben Alexander: A Neurosurgeon's Journey through the Afterlife


+++++++++

People joke that everyone who says they remember a past life, only remembers being famous or a king. But that is not the actual case. A study was done of what people reported as their occupations in past lives. And that reporting did, in fact, conform to the known historical percentages of farmers, merchants and etc. etc. etc.

+++++

People, all throughout history have reported NDEs.

++++

Thousands of people, over the course of thousands of years, have reported interactions with God.


For example, Mahatma Gandhi said that he heard a voice from God. One could say, well..ok, whatever. However, Mahatma Gandhi's life is extremely well documented. And he was known, from the time he was a very little boy, to not only be honest, but the absolute extremes of honesty. So, it is highly unlikely he was simply lying. The other possibility of the falsehood of his reporting is if he suffered from delusion. Again, his life is extremely well documented. And, he was known to have a keen and clear mind, right up to this death. And known to be in excellent health, right up to his death.

And so...if he was not lying and he was not deluded...what is left? What is left is an account of an interaction with God. And He is not alone, we have thousands of reports of that, over the course of thousands of years. If you want to call that a scientific experiment, that would mean there are too many data points to simply consider that information anecdotal. Large amounts of data are significant in an inquiry.

+++

I would also say, that, to my mind, the default of the brain is doubt. And that also means the bias of the brain is toward doubt. Also, we tend to enjoy mocking things that just seem weird to us. I would consider that tendency to be a form of bias. And breaking through bias is not all that easy.


First I believed. Then for about 2 years, I was an atheist. I think what really shook me was reading some scripture and it just felt like truth. Like the opposite of a used car salesman. It was a kind of truth that just could not be faked.

And then, later, I read more deeply. I learned that all science is still very new. That science is constantly changing its ideas. It is not some kind of pristine perfect discipline that deserves an altar or something.

Anyway, that is what I have.
 
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chic said:
Catholics still don't like birth control of any kind and consider it a sin. :confused: I guess women were more dispensable and replaceable back in OT days.
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The issue of birth control is a complete misunderstanding. The early Church was established by men who thought sexual intercourse should only be indulged in when a couple wanted to conceive a child. Their problem lies in people having sex at other times. It's not contraception which the Church objects to, it's having sex which doesn't lead to pregnancy. If people actually thought about it, they would realise that themselves.
 
I believe there are two 'Gods'.....the spiritual God, which Jesus referred to in his teaching, and the 'God' of the Old Testament. (Not sure if I should expand on that).
 

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