I wont fight to see grandchildren

[grahamg]

I have two grandsons, and have seen just one of them just once, almost four years ago now.

I will never fight my own child, one daughter, through our English courts in order to get to see them, so will trust that one day she chooses to allow some contact or else accept that shall never happen (unless the lads grow up and become curious where some of their genes came from).

My reasons are that I have no faith in our English law (to start with), which now allows grandparents the right to apply through them for a contact order even where neither parent wishes it. If I had faith in it I would not allow the courts, and their court welfare officers or whoever might investigate every aspect, into my grandchildren's lives, and nor would I put my daughter through it.

I am frequently told on forums how things have changed in family law here, and all the many troubles of the past are behind us all (mostly I'm told this by members of another forum), but I've never believed it and never will. A recent example of how much things have not improved in my view is a widely publicised case here in England where a father actually "won" a contact order over his one son, but the legal fees he'd incurred ran to £200,000, and his ex.'s to £120,000. There was much hand wringing by the judge officiating, and comments such as the "courts would continue to do their best in the difficult/impossible cases presented to them, but in my view their actions do harm to all concerned too (obviously financially, but as the case rumbled on for ten years, emotional damage to everyone).

I no longer wish to hear from those telling me the system is fine as it is (albeit I know risks associated with child contact cases may make any better system impossible).

All I'm posting this thread for is that I wish to raise the issue of where all this leaves us. If children, or grandchildren have no relationship at all with one or more parent/grandparent, and this kind of treatment goes on affecting huge numbers of people, and the children themselves are not taught that treating loving parents or grandparents this way is shameful, then I believe society will suffer. Cut off from your own family, as a result of family breakdown has consequences for how I see the world, and I'd have thought everyone else. Where is the investment in creating a good future for your own grandchildren if you're not thought worth anyone's consideration (- let the world go to hell in a handcart is one thought if this is "okay")?

This isn't the way I think, but I cannot help but conclude family breakdowns of all kinds, creating people unconnected to anyone really will have serious implications (lest friends somehow connect you to a kind of support network).

 

[Keesha]

I don’t know enough about all the legalities but I’m so sorry you and your grandchildren are so astranged.
Thats terrible and I hope it gets resolved.

 

[C'est Moi]

Since none of us are privy to the "whole story", I'll just say that when courts must be involved in family matters the outcome is seldom a desirable one for any involved. Obviously your daughter has her reasons for the situation and you'd be best served to try to mend THOSE fences instead of forcing a relationship through the courts.

 

[oldman]

IMO, I think that it's a terrible thing when our children will deny access to the GP's of their children. They do not realize the damage that they are doing by denying their children to be able to visit the child's GP's. In my world, I believe that my wife and I have taught at least two of our GC more about life than our children have. You can teach education, but never wisdom, which comes with age.

My two Grandsons think that I am the coolest Grandfather ever because I flew airplanes for a living. Just think of the wonderful things that you could share with your GC. It is totally unfair both to the children and the GP's. We, as senior adults, have so much to share with our GC and also the amount of wisdom that we could give them to help expand their minds is almost endless.

If nothing else, I hope that you are writing to them and that they are allowed to read your letters.

 

[Knight]

Quote
"If children, or grandchildren have no relationship at all with one or more parent/grandparent, and this kind of treatment goes on affecting huge numbers of people, and the children themselves are not taught that treating loving parents or grandparents this way is shameful, then I believe society will suffer."


Doubtful that this is a widespread problem for society. Since this seems to be the case with you beginning with your own situation [no explanation of your circumstances] and I really don't want to know. Maybe the best way to resolve this with your child/children is to find a way to resolve whatever is causing this without legal intervention.

 

[grahamg]

I still love my child so no taking her to court

IMO, I think that it's a terrible thing when our children will deny access to the GP's of their children. They do not realize the damage that they are doing by denying their children to be able to visit the child's GP's. In my world, I believe that my wife and I have taught at least two of our GC more about life than our children have. You can teach education, but never wisdom, which comes with age.

My two Grandsons think that I am the coolest Grandfather ever because I flew airplanes for a living. Just think of the wonderful things that you could share with your GC. It is totally unfair both to the children and the GP's. We, as senior adults, have so much to share with our GC and also the amount of wisdom that we could give them to help expand their minds is almost endless.

If nothing else, I hope that you are writing to them and that they are allowed to read your letters.

It is good to have one or two posts supportive of my position, and as to those who ask me to question myself in one way or another to find what may be at fault - I expected that reaction, and wont give you any response further than that (and why indeed should I consider you any more entitled to be privy to what went on in my private life, than I do those court welfare officers asking children whether they love their father)

I'm not sure what kind of granddad I'd be, and maybe it wouldn't come as naturally to me as it does to others, but I'm sure I'd try to follow my own path, which is the right/only thing to do isn't it - how can you have unique or loving relationships with anyone if you don't do that for yourself (and for them)?

Many wont agree with my "shameful" comment in the OP, but I do believe it is so. However, unless it becomes a mainstream thought, then I'd sure it'll be ignored by those in authority for a long long time to come.

(BTW grandchildren not old enough to read yet, but that is only one of the obstacles to sending them a letter from someone they either haven't met at all, or wont remember if they have).

 

[Butterfly]

Here in my state grandparents have no rights to see their grandchildren unless the parents of the children allow it. The courts have rules repeatedly that the parents of the child have the right to say who the child will or will not see (unless the parent has been adjudicated abusive or neglectful of the child and had their parental rights terminated by the courts.

 

[gennie]

I would accept what is at the moment but always keep the door open and be sure they know that they have a safe place with you.

 

[grahamg]

I have this blessing

I would accept what is at the moment but always keep the door open and be sure they know that they have a safe place with you.

I do believe you are correct, and hope I've said the same thing myself above, as this is exactly what I'll do.

There is one great blessing and that is my child is the kind of person most people would probably like to know (I know I'm boasting there).

Having said that I'm told by people who should know that after very long absences from ones children they may have grown into a person you don't like so much (a former barrister told me this, though the lady concerned wasn't acting for me, just speaking as a friend).

 

[Knight]

Truly a different way of life. Since interaction with my sons & grandchildren is almost daily I couldn't imagine thinking about using the court system to force what seems natural to me. I guess some families for whatever reason manage to get to that point. I can say for sure that if that were to be our situation I know I would be to blame since it was my parenting style that caused the kind of situation described. But thankfully it's not.

 

[grahamg]

Not my case but other fathers.....

Truly a different way of life. Since interaction with my sons & grandchildren is almost daily I couldn't imagine thinking about using the court system to force what seems natural to me. I guess some families for whatever reason manage to get to that point. I can say for sure that if that were to be our situation I know I would be to blame since it was my parenting style that caused the kind of situation described. But thankfully it's not.

You've said you're not interested in my case specifically, and that's helpful as I'm only willing to obliquely refer to it.

I do know of a couple of fathers who have taken a different view to your own so far as who might be to blame for lack of contact with children/grandchildren.

The landlord of a public house in Somerton, Devon, UK told a group of father's rights protesters (myself included on the protest outside a family court judges house earlier in the day), how when he and his wife split up, his four children sided with their mother. A few years later one of the sons tried to contact him and he wouldn't let the boy, now a young man, have anything to do with him.

A former neighbour of mine, when I lived in Wiltshire, UK, told me that if his daughter had spoken to him in the manner mine did regularly he'd have nothing to do with her. Some fathers therefore take a different view, to either yourself or the way I chose to behave. They do choose to bear grudges, even if it might be unfair really towards their own child, who might have been a twelve years old or young teenager at the time of estrangement or separation.

 

[StarSong]

I'm sorry for your situation, but also know that there are two sides to every story.

I chose estrangement from my father about ten years ago for quite good reasons. If you you asked him about it he'd claim he was an excellent father and completely undeserving of such an ungrateful child.

 

[grahamg]

There was a recent thread on your situation

I'm sorry for your situation, but also know that there are two sides to every story.

I chose estrangement from my father about ten years ago for quite good reasons. If you you asked him about it he'd claim he was an excellent father and completely undeserving of such an ungrateful child.

No need to be too sorry because as I've said earlier in this thread I have some blessings to count as well as the obvious negative aspect of no contact with your one child, or any grandchildren as you grow old.

There was a recent thread on the forum giving a similar story to yours above, and I think I commented on that discussion, that you must choose to live with turning your back on a difficult parent for the rest of your life. Difficult as my mother certainly was to live with, turning my back on her was never an option for me, and I used to think she'd "haunt me from the grave", when in fact the opposite is true. I now appreciate the obstacles she faced, and how she did her best, just as she told me she was always trying to do.

 

[Ronni]

Family dynamics are both complex and nuanced, and no matter how much time you spend trying to understand the problem of another family, you can't possibly know all the intricacies of the issues even half as well as the people directly involved in those issues. There are typically not just two sides to a story, but multiple sides, because of the sheer number of people involved in any situation. Depending on issue + family structure you have the children, two parents, the siblings of the parents, both sets of grandparents on either side all of whom can be immediately involved. Add to that the issues that arise with blended families where you have the Mom and the Step Dad plus the Dad and the Step Mom, which doubles the potential level of involvement from other family and step-family members.

Complex. Complicated. Intricate. With so many sides to every single story, every incident, every slight, bump, rub, disagreement, argument, that it can so easily get out of hand and the original issue become lost, or at least so warped and misshapen that it bears no resemblance to what it started out as.

I am so sorry for your problem grahamg. I have a very close and loving relationship with all of my grandchildren and I can't imagine it being any other way. But I also know how hard I've had to work with some very difficult obstacles in place (addiction of my son's ex, her remarriage to an alcoholic, and the use of the kids to manipulate the grandparents with) to maintain the relationships I have with them. Luckily my obstacles were able to be overcome with time and patience. I hope yours are too.

 

[grahamg]

Life is a series of transactions

Family dynamics are both complex and nuanced, and no matter how much time you spend trying to understand the problem of another family, you can't possibly know all the intricacies of the issues even half as well as the people directly involved in those issues. There are typically not just two sides to a story, but multiple sides, because of the sheer number of people involved in any situation. Depending on issue + family structure you have the children, two parents, the siblings of the parents, both sets of grandparents on either side all of whom can be immediately involved. Add to that the issues that arise with blended families where you have the Mom and the Step Dad plus the Dad and the Step Mom, which doubles the potential level of involvement from other family and step-family members.

Complex. Complicated. Intricate. With so many sides to every single story, every incident, every slight, bump, rub, disagreement, argument, that it can so easily get out of hand and the original issue become lost, or at least so warped and misshapen that it bears no resemblance to what it started out as.

I am so sorry for your problem grahamg. I have a very close and loving relationship with all of my grandchildren and I can't imagine it being any other way. But I also know how hard I've had to work with some very difficult obstacles in place (addiction of my son's ex, her remarriage to an alcoholic, and the use of the kids to manipulate the grandparents with) to maintain the relationships I have with them. Luckily my obstacles were able to be overcome with time and patience. I hope yours are too.

I will try to be careful here, as I know I can tend to "go on a bit" during discussions, but you could say "life is a series of transactions".

When you marry you undertake a very public transaction, and you say, (or used to say), you will love the other person as long as you both shall live.

If as a result of that "love" you are lucky enough to help create a child, then as you've suggested another "family dynamic" appears.

Every encounter you then have with your child you could say adds more transactions to the very long list you've started long before they were born, and each affecting the next quite possibly. How you react towards your own child is to some extent dependent upon the way you felt about your partner/wife/husband in my view.

Now I hope to get somewhere near my point in this post. "In my case" it was the certainty, or almost certainty I'd be backed by the family courts over contact with my own child, that allowed me to feel the way I did about her. If I hadn't believed my relationship with her would have been backed I do not believe I could have been the loving parent I was, and remain to some extent.

Looked at from the child's perspective, they encounter all kinds of transactions don't they. We're probably all familiar with the concept of "divided loyalties" aren't we - if I love my dad am I being disloyal to my mum who doesn't love him or want me to love him?

I cited the example of a father who spent a small fortune getting a judge to agree to him having contact with his son, (and his ex. spent a similar small fortune opposing him). The boy concerned made up stories of abuse against the father according to the trial judge, and the judge concluded the boy was damaged by the way the parents had behaved towards one another (though the boys comment "he just wanted a normal life" as his reasoning for making his assertions or allegations reveals to me the system is at fault too).

It is obviously shameful to make up stories of abuse against your parent/father, yet very easy to see how it might happen. In return for his love and commitment to his son this father had to face ten years of court battles (I'd suggest not over yet too), and he has a son prepared to behave as he has done towards him. After they've investigated every aspect of the sons relationship with his father do those same professionals, judges or court welfare officers tell the child he has been wrong to make up stories or do they do as they appear to have done here and talk only of how damaged he must be?

A Canadian lawyer called Goldwater stated that there was a need for privacy in interpersonal relationships, and yet we can see this protection is not afforded to those going through family court disputes. Knowing you are going to be asked whether or not you love one of your parents puts that child in the impossible position of divided loyalty I mentioned earlier, and therefore should not be done in my view.

Sorry I went on so long here, there it is "life is a series of encounters or transactions", many of which may be out of your control and affect the next one, such as whether or not you feel loving towards your own child in my view.

 

[Ronni]

I will try to be careful here, as I know I can tend to "go on a bit" during discussions, but you could say "life is a series of transactions".

When you marry you undertake a very public transaction, and you say, (or used to say), you will love the other person as long as you both shall live.

If as a result of that "love" you are lucky enough to help create a child, then as you've suggested another "family dynamic" appears.

Every encounter you then have with your child you could say adds more transactions to the very long list you've started long before they were born, and each affecting the next quite possibly. How you react towards your own child is to some extent dependent upon the way you felt about your partner/wife/husband in my view.

I can understand your explanation of the transactional nature of interactions with children. I think that applies to all interpersonal relationships, familial or not. Every interaction one has becomes the springboard for the next one, and sets either a positive or negative tone for the next interaction. Each of those interactions builds a history, and that history is colored by the number of positive vs negative interactions or transactions, creating a preponderance of either pleasant or unpleasant memories.

I do however have a different opinion and different experiences concerning the feelings towards ones children being influenced by the feelings towards ones spouse. My ex-husband was an abusive, domineering and controlling man. My history with him was wretched. I was controlled to the point of becoming subservient and submissive, terrified of his wrath and his abuse. I had 5 children with this man. I love them with my whole heart, and NONE of the wretched horrible things he did to me influenced in the slightest my feelings towards my children. I hated him with a fierce passion. I love my children with a greater degree of passion. He has been out of our lives for years now, and we are a very close and loving family.

 

[grahamg]

Focus on broader questions

Grahamg wrote:
"I will try to be careful here, as I know I can tend to "go on a bit" during discussions, but you could say "life is a series of transactions".

When you marry you undertake a very public transaction, and you say, (or used to say), you will love the other person as long as you both shall live.

If as a result of that "love" you are lucky enough to help create a child, then as you've suggested another "family dynamic" appears.

Every encounter you then have with your child you could say adds more transactions to the very long list you've started long before they were born, and each affecting the next quite possibly. How you react towards your own child is to some extent dependent upon the way you felt about your partner/wife/husband in my view.

Now I hope to get somewhere near my point in this post. "In my case" it was the certainty, or almost certainty I'd be backed by the family courts over contact with my own child, that allowed me to feel the way I did about her. If I hadn't believed my relationship with her would have been backed I do not believe I could have been the loving parent I was, and remain to some extent.

Looked at from the child's perspective, they encounter all kinds of transactions don't they. We're probably all familiar with the concept of "divided loyalties" aren't we - if I love my dad am I being disloyal to my mum who doesn't love him or want me to love him?

I cited the example of a father who spent a small fortune getting a judge to agree to him having contact with his son, (and his ex. spent a similar small fortune opposing him). The boy concerned made up stories of abuse against the father according to the trial judge, and the judge concluded the boy was damaged by the way the parents had behaved towards one another (though the boys comment "he just wanted a normal life" as his reasoning for making his assertions or allegations reveals to me the system is at fault too).

It is obviously shameful to make up stories of abuse against your parent/father, yet very easy to see how it might happen. In return for his love and commitment to his son this father had to face ten years of court battles (I'd suggest not over yet too), and he has a son prepared to behave as he has done towards him. After they've investigated every aspect of the sons relationship with his father do those same professionals, judges or court welfare officers tell the child he has been wrong to make up stories or do they do as they appear to have done here and talk only of how damaged he must be?

A Canadian lawyer called Goldwater stated that there was a need for privacy in interpersonal relationships, and yet we can see this protection is not afforded to those going through family court disputes. Knowing you are going to be asked whether or not you love one of your parents puts that child in the impossible position of divided loyalty I mentioned earlier, and therefore should not be done in my view.

Sorry I went on so long here, there it is "life is a series of encounters or transactions", many of which may be out of your control and affect the next one, such as whether or not you feel loving towards your own child in my view."

Ronni wrote:
"I can understand your explanation of the transactional nature of interactions with children. I think that applies to all interpersonal relationships, familial or not. Every interaction one has becomes the springboard for the next one, and sets either a positive or negative tone for the next interaction. Each of those interactions builds a history, and that history is colored by the number of positive vs negative interactions or transactions, creating a preponderance of either pleasant or unpleasant memories.

I do however have a different opinion and different experiences concerning the feelings towards ones children being influenced by the feelings towards ones spouse. My ex-husband was an abusive, domineering and controlling man. My history with him was wretched. I was controlled to the point of becoming subservient and submissive, terrified of his wrath and his abuse. I had 5 children with this man. I love them with my whole heart, and NONE of the wretched horrible things he did to me influenced in the slightest my feelings towards my children. I hated him with a fierce passion. I love my children with a greater degree of passion. He has been out of our lives for years now, and we are a very close and loving family."

I know I've touched a nerve inadvertently, and I do know how few people having anything good to say about their ex.'s and father/mother of their children, and learnt a lot by speaking to other fathers on marches around London protesting. I've met some men who sound very much like your ex. and you have my sympathy there, because even a friend of mine who suffers from serious alcoholism and may die soon, was very controlling towards the mother of his four children, and arguably impossible to live with in my view.

My ex. was definitely the better parent, very caring of our daughter, and she actually told me her two other children by the next man were not like our daughter (a stunning admission in my view, especially to tell me this was her view). Just to point out one of her more bizarre comments though, she said that she'd been "surprisingly loyal towards me" - and this at a time she'd been seeing another man for a few months behind my back, and the other man's wife's back.

However, the point of this thread is to raise broader questions as to how people who feel left out of society might behave. I'm obviously fairly cut off from young people because I'm not really connected in the way you are when you have children or grandchildren you're able to see regularly. I'm sure that has an effect upon my outlook, and I am certainly aggrieved and it makes me feel "everything is not okay with the way things are being run" - at least as far as family law goes, and to some extent beyond that too.

 

[StarSong]

Not being connected with your daughter doesn't mean being cut off from all young people. Granted, you would have to put some effort forth. If you want to connect with children you can read aloud to little ones at a public library, or help out in a local school. To connect with adults of all ages, there are always volunteer opportunities dozens of charities.

In my experience, people of all ages are happy to form new relationships with kind, caring, helpful, positive individuals.

 

[Aunt Bea]

Not being connected with your daughter doesn't mean being cut off from all young people. Granted, you would have to put some effort forth. If you want to connect with children you can read aloud to little ones at a public library, or help out in a local school. To connect with adults of all ages, there are always volunteer opportunities dozens of charities.

In my experience, people of all ages are happy to form new relationships with kind, caring, helpful, positive individuals.

I agree people always seem to find a way to do the things that are important to them.

My mother used to volunteer as an aide to the local kindergarten class.

She also started taking piano lessons when she was in her 70's and most of the other folks in her class were under the age of 10. They used to get a kick out of helping each other and doing recitals for the parents.

 

[StarSong]

I agree people always seem to find a way to do the things that are important to them.

My mother used to volunteer as an aide to the local kindergarten class.

She also started taking piano lessons when she was in her 70's and most of the other folks in her class were under the age of 10. They used to get a kick out of helping each other and doing recitals for the parents.

I learned long ago that in life you either get what you want - or the reason why not. Holds true every time for every scenario.

Bea, your mother opted to get what she wanted rather than holding onto the reasons why she didn't have them. I bet she was a pistol!

 

[grahamg]

Lamented by a family court judge here

Originally Posted by StarSong "Not being connected with your daughter doesn't mean being cut off from all young people. Granted, you would have to put some effort forth. If you want to connect with children you can read aloud to little ones at a public library, or help out in a local school. To connect with adults of all ages, there are always volunteer opportunities dozens of charities.

In my experience, people of all ages are happy to form new relationships with kind, caring, helpful, positive individuals."


Aunt Bea wrote:
"I agree people always seem to find a way to do the things that are important to them.

My mother used to volunteer as an aide to the local kindergarten class.

She also started taking piano lessons when she was in her 70's and most of the other folks in her class were under the age of 10. They used to get a kick out of helping each other and doing recitals for the parents."

I'm not lamenting being cut off from young people, just acknowledging that is one of the likely affects following estrangement from one's children ("children keep you young" they say don't they).

You have reminded me though of a comment by a UK family court judge lamenting the numbers of children being brought up here in households with at least one parent other than their own.

You may "agree people seem to find a way to do things that are important to them", and maybe having more to do with other people's children isn't that important to me (am I wrong to feel this way?). However, having something to do with my own child or grandchildren is another matter I hope I've demonstrated above.

 

[grahamg]

Using your reasoning.....

Truly a different way of life. Since interaction with my sons & grandchildren is almost daily I couldn't imagine thinking about using the court system to force what seems natural to me. I guess some families for whatever reason manage to get to that point. I can say for sure that if that were to be our situation I know I would be to blame since it was my parenting style that caused the kind of situation described. But thankfully it's not.

If you don't mind my saying but "using your reasoning" above anyone losing contact with a child/grandchild must carry all the responsibility for the failure due to their "parenting style" .

Obviously my friends from the father's rights and grandparents rights groups would tend to disagree with you there, plus some men I know and have quoted, wouldn't put up with the things I endured trying to do my best for my child, so I doubt you'd convince them either.

 

[Aunt Bea]

I have no idea what caused the rift in your relationship with your daughter but I agree with others that have said mending that rift is the place to start.

As far as the grandchildren are concerned, I would ask myself what is best for them and not what would be best for me. If attempting to have contact with them causes upheaval in their lives then I would stay out of it entirely. If I thought that having contact with them provided some benefit to them I would make an effort to send cards, photographs, small token presents, letters, etc... Keep the lines of communication open without making reference to any problems between you and their mother. You may not get a response but they will learn a little something about you and when they are older they may make an effort to contact you.

Best wishes to you and your family for a successful resolution to this situation.

 

[grahamg]

Thank you for genuinely "self less" views

I have no idea what caused the rift in your relationship with your daughter but I agree with others that have said mending that rift is the place to start.

As far as the grandchildren are concerned, I would ask myself what is best for them and not what would be best for me. If attempting to have contact with them causes upheaval in their lives then I would stay out of it entirely. If I thought that having contact with them provided some benefit to them I would make an effort to send cards, photographs, small token presents, letters, etc... Keep the lines of communication open without making reference to any problems between you and their mother. You may not get a response but they will learn a little something about you and when they are older they may make an effort to contact you.

Best wishes to you and your family for a successful resolution to this situation.

Firstly that you for your kind post, and your genuinely"self less" views.

I'd wanted to come back on the thread to post some thoughts or suggestions as to what might be said to young people declining contact with one of their parents, and all the mess going on in the English family court system in my view, typified by the divorced couple spending a fortune over ten years concerning their apparently ungrateful son.

However, I will try to answer your reasoned post before I move on.

As far as what's good for my grandchildren, and thinking of that first. I think we'd agree putting them, and their mother (plus her really decent husband, who I've met just a couple of times but liked a great deal), through any kind of family court process is a no no. A waste of time and money, though I do not mean to criticise those grandparents prepared to do so, because I've met some grandparents through my campaigning experiences with very real reasons to be fearful for their grandchildren, and of course so many grandparents are not as able to be as "philosophical" about their exclusion as I am lucky to feel. My own mother thought a great deal of my daughter, and yet she did try to emphasise to me that as her own child she thought even more of me. It turned out my daughter went out of her way to stay in touch with her grandparents and vice versa, so a really positive thing occurred there, which I played some part in facilitating and never wished to interfere over.

I can see what you're saying over "lines of communication" too, but unfortunately there are none open, as my daughter refuses presents I've attempted to send to my grandchildren via my ex. brother-in-law, and that is the only avenue available. So fearful was my brother-in-law when he gave me my second grandson's birth date, he told me not to tell anyone he'd done so, and even waited until his wife left the room before handing me the scrap of paper. Its hard to believe a grown man should feel so fearful when carrying our such a simple act, although I assure you it was the case, and he doesn't see much of the mother of my child, (his only sister) either.

Moving on now to my thoughts or suggestions as to what might be said to young people refusing contact with a parent (even if they're unlikely to listen at the time, due to their youth and inexperience).

I'd have it said to them that "although they may have been told all their lives that whether or not there should be any contact with their parent is all about their interests, there are "mutual interests" in any relationship, things that are indivisible like "love"".

Then I'd have it said to them that "although the law in our country allows their views to be listened to and taken seriously, (more so from the age of about twelve onwards), they should not be asked about whether they love their parent or not".

Finally I'd have it pointed out to them that "if one of their parents does not believe their relationship with them will be protected by the law following divorce or separation, then smaller children whose interests would certainly be served by contact with both their parents, may be less likely to get this contact. Do you wish to reject one of your parents, and in doing so do you wish to be responsible, in some small way, for the "elastic nature of all loving relationships" breaking down more often in future?"

 

[grahamg]

I know this thread might well have runs its course (and thanks to all who have contributed), so it's maybe unwise to try to revive it, but just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:

"Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"


"Are you in favour of giving children a platform to verbally abuse their parents, in the guise of children's views being listened to and taken seriously?"


"Do you agree that any parent, following their divorce or separation from the other parent, should have no right to any privacy, even where there are no fears of any abuse regarding their child?"


"Is privacy in close interpersonal relationships required at all, or should any court appointed professional be permitted to ask your child any question they wish?"