Incident At The Thrift Store. (gender identity.)

Dancing_Queen said:
I know a transgender woman who had gender confirming surgery several years ago. At that time it cost her $75,000, uncovered by any insurance. She was a working woman -- not independently wealthy.

1. Who would undergo surgery to *******s, hips, face, and who knows what else just to make a point?

2. Who would spend that type of money just to make a point?

The point I'm trying to make is that for people to undergo this sort of thing, it has to be real. That doesn't mean that there aren't jerks out there, but for many this isn't in the least bit easy.
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I think some of them stop at the hormone therapy because they can't afford the surgeries. They use prosthetic's to do the rest of the work for them. Bosses son is now a girl. Did hormone therapy so far but not sure if he's gonna go the rest of the way or not. I doubt they have the money or that the boss would by that for him. I can't see it.
 

MarciKS said:
I think some of them stop at the hormone therapy because they can't afford the surgeries. They use prosthetic's to do the rest of the work for them. Bosses son is now a girl. Did hormone therapy so far but not sure if he's gonna go the rest of the way or not. I doubt they have the money or that the boss would by that for him. I can't see it.
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That's one of the reasons. Another is that hormone therapy is as far as they want to go. Others just dress as the opposite sex and "pass" that way; without their changing their facial features, though, passing becomes more difficult. It's what a person's comfortable with and can afford and medical situation will allow.

I've looked at the situation for many years. Men used to wear what would pass today as a dress (look at the Ancient Greeks). Women at one time couldn't be seen outside in pants. Now, women can wear pants and suits and ties; but men can't wear dresses. It seems rather one-sided to me. Women couldn't act in the roles we now play. As far as I'm concerned, dress the way you feel like dressing; act the role you feel comfortable acting. Be yourself!
 
it's getting harder to tell if someone is male or female as well. sometimes i'm not sure. i stopped using sir and ma'am and i just say excuse me to get their attn now.
 

MarciKS said:
it's getting harder to tell if someone is male or female as well. sometimes i'm not sure. i stopped using sir and ma'am and i just say excuse me to get their attn now.
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Maybe that's a good thing. I figure it's going to get to the point where binary pronouns are going to be lost from the vocabulary. Aside from the point of this thread and what will make things easier, there's another reason I think it would be a good thing. When that time comes people will be judged by what they do, not what gender they are. Our vocabulary follows our mindsets and our mindsets follow our vocabulary. I believe that if we start using gender-neutral pronouns, our thought processes will stop placing people into two groups before we look at them as simply human beings.
 
With all the hormones in foods today I can see where a developing fetus might get some parts that don't match the brain and want to surgically correct that later. However, going out with a ruffled dress and a beard seems like setting a semantics trap for innocent people. I would have thought a truly open-minded, non-binary person would be happy to be called either sir or madam.

I'm more concerned with the "therapy" dogs turning up everywhere. Walmart is now full of them and no one knows if they're properly trained at all. Last week, a Pit bull tried to attack a small child with down syndrome while she was riding in the cart.
 
For most of us, we think we are the same gender as our organs indicate. But that is a simplistic idea. The whole gender, identity, orientation process is extremely complex, And one doesn't necessarily mean the other, regardless of the gender of the organs.
That said, rudeness is not trait of anyone's gender issues.
And, yeah, the" therapy dog " bit is way over used, so you won't have to lock up the dog in a car.
 
Reading about the costs involved I wonder how many will try to come to Canada. The surgery is free here for Canadians.

I did meet one male to female trans when she was just starting the surgery. At that time she dressed in woman's clothing and heels and carried a purse. I was told that in addition to the physical surgeries there was also psychiatric analysis as a prerequisite cause once it's done there's no going back.

Very nice person I might add. So there's the term.....person.
 
I try to be very open about LGBTQ issues....I have family in that category, BUT, if I see someone obviously male or female, I will address them as sir or madam.
I, personally have issue and get a little snarley when someone refers to ME as sir. My hair is vary fine, and because of that I heep it short as it looks better. And while I never wear dresses or skirts, It has to be obvious I am female (lets just say I do not have pancakes up front, LOL)
I mean..really??? I do wear some gender neutral tops, but I also have many with flower or female type print or designs. Short, thinning hair does NOT automatically mean MALE
 
mrstime said:
I'm OK with calling Cher's eldest child HIM, I'm OK with calling Kris Jenners ex HER, but this idea that someone has no gender is nuts!
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I used to know a person like that. They had four different names -- two male and two female. That was weird! Anyway, I have no idea what their biological sex was as it didn't show in their face.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
For most of us, we think we are the same gender as our organs indicate. But that is a simplistic idea. The whole gender, identity, orientation process is extremely complex, And one doesn't necessarily mean the other, regardless of the gender of the organs.
That said, rudeness is not trait of anyone's gender issues.
And, yeah, the" therapy dog " bit is way over used, so you won't have to lock up the dog in a car.
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There are also many intersexed individuals (1/1000 births) -- people whose *******s are questionable(1). And there's one community in the Dominican Republic where the boys present as girls until puberty when their testes descend(2).

1. https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20190503/study-about-1-in-1000-babies-born-intersex

2. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981
 
From what I understand some in the LGBTQ communities want everyone to be addressed in a neutral manner. That’s fine, if it applies to them. If I wish to be thought of or addressed as female, because I am, that should be my right too. Respect works both ways.
 
Packerjohn said:
Nope! I never did and never will buy into all this "HEY! World, look at me; I'm trans-gender and you better like it or ELSE! Seems to me the media is really promoting this new "aspect/problem" of our society. You can be what you want but I don't want you shoveling it into my face! Having a parade to promote your life style does noting for me as far as respect for your lifestyle. You live your life and I will live mine. That's what I call freedom!

Also, I wonder about seeing more and more dogs in stores. I wouldn't be surprised if we start having dog restaurants where you are eating your burgers and fries and at the next table some dog is slobbering up his plate. This could happen because many people are just too afraid to protest anything. I guess protesting dogs is politically incorrect?
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Well, like I said, yes this person was looking for this IMO and wanted to be a victim. And seriously, a all volunteer run thrift store with most ladies appearing to be over retirement age and they have to put up with this. Like they may not have problems but probably enjoy their shift at the store. Not to mention patrons because this jerk sure evoked my own mother and her victimhood.

As far as dogs go (and I'm sure this dog was no more a "service" dog than my cats are) this is being over used to the max. I do see a number of dogs at Goodwill and no one seems to say anything. Most are small and in the carts and a few have even had their own strollers. I think they make pet strollers.
 
As Dancing Queen said, every group of humans has it's (expletives withheld). Some people in every group behave very badly. But funny how most people most often say 'NOT ALL ____ are ____ ' when they're part of the same group as the offender being discussed.

Jules has a point that it could have been intentional distraction for nefarious purposes (but damn, at a thrift shop? Dream big folks, at least do it at a chain store.)

It's easy to see i'm in minority here, as i often am. So i'm just going to say this once.

i learned during my college course work in the early 90's that gender is more than just sexual organs at birth, hormones and DNA. All embryos begin as female, a lot of complex things have to happen for all the physiological cues to transmit the exact same info to the individual. If one of those things doesn't meet the mark it can create some issues.

BTW, The whole LGBTQ spectrum has been with us from our early days. Some so-called primitive cultures quite accepting of it as long the person isn't harming anyone else and some so-called 'civilized' cultures (quite possibly due to religions springing up as power structures) frowned on it greatly. They were often shunned, abused, jailed and/or killed. People who today would ID as part of the LGBTQ community didn't even have the vocabulary to define themselves, explain their feelings to others and the science wasn't there to back them up.

Most in that community know from an early age, but up until recent decades most people were only aware of the 4 basic groupings of sexual preference (which is not always the same as gender ID): Heterosexual; Homosexual; Bisexual and Asexual. The vocabulary has been expanded. Same way it's changed as we've learned the Autism spectrum isn't the only way to be 'Neuro-Atypical'.

Do some people take advantage of current moves toward acceptance? i've no doubt. Do some not really a part of that community claim it because it gives them attention they crave? Likely. Not a lot, but some. And, because we are all human, one can be a part of any 'protected' class of people and still be an a**h*le, but that doesn't warrant jumping on the bandwagon of disrespecting an entire group of people.

It doesn't matter one damn bit what any straight, binary, heterosexual person thinks/feels/believes about LGBTQ folks, they are still human beings who deserve a baseline respect as humans, common courtesy, civility etc until they actually behave in a way that would be obnoxious no matter who they are or how they identify.
 
Dancing_Queen said:
I know a transgender woman who had gender confirming surgery several years ago. At that time it cost her $75,000, uncovered by any insurance. She was a working woman -- not independently wealthy.

1. Who would undergo surgery to *******s, hips, face, and who knows what else just to make a point?

2. Who would spend that type of money just to make a point?

The point I'm trying to make is that for people to undergo this sort of thing, it has to be real. That doesn't mean that there aren't jerks out there, but for many this isn't in the least bit easy.
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Thank you for making this point.
 
feywon said:
BTW, The whole LGBTQ spectrum has been with us from our early days. Some so-called primitive cultures quite accepting of it as long the person isn't harming anyone else and some so-called 'civilized' cultures (quite possibly due to religions springing up as power structures) frowned on it greatly. They were often shunned, abused, jailed and/or killed. People who today would ID as part of the LGBTQ community didn't even have the vocabulary to define themselves, explain their feelings to others and the science wasn't there to back them up.
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And some LGBTQ people were revered by some groups around the world. For instance,

"Since everything that exists is thought to come from the spirit world, androgynous or transgender persons are seen as doubly blessed, having both the spirit of a man and the spirit of a woman. Thus, they are honoured for having two spirits, and are seen as more spiritually gifted than the typical masculine male or feminine female.

"Therefore, many Native American religions, rather than stigmatising such persons, often looked to them as religious leaders and teachers."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america
 
MarciKS said:
I think some of them stop at the hormone therapy because they can't afford the surgeries. They use prosthetic's to do the rest of the work for them. Bosses son is now a girl. Did hormone therapy so far but not sure if he's gonna go the rest of the way or not. I doubt they have the money or that the boss would by that for him. I can't see it.
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You are likely right.

Also, Chaz Bono had the funds but delayed the final surgery (penile construction) till 2009 to give them more time to perfect it, because female to male transition trickier. In the surgical field such progress sometimes comes in fits and starts--no advances for years then suddenly some innovations--in a single type of surgery or several because other docs get ideas based on what the latest innovator created, invented, whatever.
 
Dancing_Queen said:
And some LGBTQ people were revered by some groups around the world. For instance,

"Since everything that exists is thought to come from the spirit world, androgynous or transgender persons are seen as doubly blessed, having both the spirit of a man and the spirit of a woman. Thus, they are honoured for having two spirits, and are seen as more spiritually gifted than the typical masculine male or feminine female.

"Therefore, many Native American religions, rather than stigmatising such persons, often looked to them as religious leaders and teachers."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america
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Yes, i knew about the 'Two-Spirit' folks. Have actually known some. Also because Native American culture is not as rigid about a lot of things, Heterosexual kids who display some habits or speech patterns or affinities 'civilized' culture tend to label masculine/feminine do not get negative pressure about it, whatever balance of such supposed gender identification markers the individual expresses is accepted for what it is.

i suspect a lot of the infamous 'experimentation 'phases' some people go thru in mainstream societies is in part sparked by other people, particularly parents/siblings/classmates making remarks about something that doesn't conform to their ideas of 'normal'. Some are more impressionable and start wondering---maybe i am different in that way.

One of the moments i felt the best about my parenting was when one of my then adolescent boys--they were at stage where classmates threw the homosexual epithets around as insults and they used them on each other. i had a talk with them about if they want to do that, despite the kind of prejudice it perpetuates, at school--i can't stop them--but i won't tolerate it at home.

i told them that not only do i disapprove of such prejudices but had they thought about the fact that most slurs about homosexuals address 'feminine' traits with the implications there is something inherently 'less than' about femaleness and did they (who had long since starting teaching their 8 yrs younger than them sister self-defense) really want to send their sister that message. That language stopped within the family right them. One of the boys even mentioned that one of the things he loved/admired about their little sister was that she had some very feminine traits, but she was also strong willed, and often something of a 'tomboy'.
 
feywon said:
You are likely right.

Also, Chaz Bono had the funds but delayed the final surgery (penile construction) till 2009 to give them more time to perfect it, because female to male transition trickier. In the surgical field such progress sometimes comes in fits and starts--no advances for years then suddenly some innovations--in a single type of surgery or several because other docs get ideas based on what the latest innovator created, invented, whatever.
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I looked up non-binary yesterday cuz I keep seeing it and didn't really know what it was. There's like an entire list of non-binary "genders" I guess. There was like a list of like 10 - 15. I don't agree with it but I don't mind it cuz it's their lives. I just don't like it that they expect us to just know from looking at them. That's what makes me mad. I've been called sir on several occasions just because someone sees the short hair and doesn't bother to look at the rest. I've accidentally mistaken women for men many times and they were just women. Not in transition or anything. It's to the point where it's difficult to figure out how to word things so we don't offend. I don't recall having all these problems years ago before all this crap started. It's frustrating to say the least. I'm a woman and I'm not throwing a fit over what someone calls me. I don't care. I got other problems in this life that are far more important than worrying about whether or not someone can guess if I'm a man or a woman. You know? :LOL:
 
@feywon I don't know if you are actually in the minority. My point of the post was several things: This individuals entitlement, their harassment of older volunteer ladies (I've been going to this nice local thrift store for over 25 years and they just reopened about 2 months ago due to covid with reduced days) and the fact that this behavior is upsetting to other's like myself who endured it as children.

As far as a transgender person goes. I have no problem. I had a problem with this bearded individual making a scene because he (by all appearances) was called "sir" in a respectful manner. Refused to wear a mask, brought a larger dog in and had a fit when asked to comply.
And if this jerk wanted to play adversity olympics, I bet I'd win.

About 5-6 years ago at my former job we had someone who was signing us up for our benefits package. This woman was transgender and she was nice as could be. After getting my benefits signed up for I was waiting in the break room to clock in. Some nasty comments "what was that" "that wasn't a woman" Just unkind. I'm not confrontational but wanted to let them know I wasn't going to engage in their BS. My responses' were "she sure was nice" "she was very helpful and knowledgeable" That at least shut them up since they realized I wasn't going to go along with their crap.
 
MarciKS said:
I looked up non-binary yesterday cuz I keep seeing it and didn't really know what it was. There's like an entire list of non-binary "genders" I guess. There was like a list of like 10 - 15. I don't agree with it but I don't mind it cuz it's their lives. I just don't like it that they expect us to just know from looking at them. That's what makes me mad. I've been called sir on several occasions just because someone sees the short hair and doesn't bother to look at the rest. I've accidentally mistaken women for men many times and they were just women. Not in transition or anything. It's to the point where it's difficult to figure out how to word things so we don't offend. I don't recall having all these problems years ago before all this crap started. It's frustrating to say the least. I'm a woman and I'm not throwing a fit over what someone calls me. I don't care. I got other problems in this life that are far more important than worrying about whether or not someone can guess if I'm a man or a woman. You know? :LOL:
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I've been harassed that I'm gay because I never married or had kids. I'm not, I like men. I was asked at an open house for a town house if I thought I could afford the place. I don't know what kind of trash they thought I looked like but the answer was yes, I could have but I just left. It was very hurtful. I've been called all kinds of names so this individuals behavior was hard for me to witness.
 
Remy said:
I've been harassed that I'm gay because I never married or had kids. I'm not, I like men. I was asked at an open house for a town house if I thought I could afford the place. I don't know what kind of trash they thought I looked like but the answer was yes, I could have but I just left. It was very hurtful. I've been called all kinds of names so this individuals behavior was hard for me to witness.
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I'm sure many of us have had similar situations. I had a young man that was a co-worker ask me if I ever thought about being gay when I first got my hair cut short. I told him no and asked him if he had. LOL!
 
I don't address people with titles(sir,Madam,ma'am,Ms etc) just because I choose to sidestep any objections. Exception: if a man hands me money I say "thank you sir". The man doesn't have to be older than me, those men are getting fewer & fewer...
If a woman give me money I just say "thank you [her name] and present a hug.

If I'm down South I'll lay the "sirs" and "ma'am) on thick, because I know everyone's been taught right.

 

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