Is it "PC", or common curtesy?????????

Geezer Garage said:
I don't mind them taking down statues, but what about all those poor pigeons.
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One could argue about the removal of statues! (Yes, I know you were being funny but let me get my 2 cents worth in at this time!) On the one hand they remind us of very important figures in our history, on the other hand maybe some shouldn't be remembered! At least not triumphant on horses!

We are in the process of removing statues and streets named after Edward Cornwallis who paid for every scalp collected from the "savages!" BTW, my basic training "ship" was named HMCS Cornwallis!

Then there was Jefferey Amherst. Here is what he wrote at the time, re. small pox:

"You will do well to try to inoculate the Indians by means of blankets, as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race. I should be very glad your scheme for hunting them down by dogs could take effect, but England is at too great a distance to think of that at present," wrote Amherst in a 1763 letter.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/jeffery-amherst-history-complex-1.4089019

Should we keep the name of the city (Amherst, N.S.), or change it?
 

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I think "politically correct" is a good term for those, who insist in being treated as respected citizens. Archie Bunkerism died in the 70s. Marginalizing and ethnically belittling others is now seen as unwanted behaviors in a civilized society. I wish we could call it, "good manners".
 
fuzzybuddy said:
I think "politically correct" is a good term for those, who insist in being treated as respected citizens. Archie Bunkerism died in the 70s. Marginalizing and ethnically belittling others is now seen as unwanted behaviors in a civilized society. I wish we could call it, "good manners".
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Trouble is, the decent kind of PCism has become mixed with the ridiculous. And I agree totally with your sentiments!
 

Remy said:
I remember a man calling into KGO news talk in San Francisco who told the host he held a door for a young woman and she snapped "I don't need that." Seriously WTF? The host brushed it off saying "that's just a broken person."
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If opening the door was an act of kindness from men rather than a justification for paying women less than men for the same work, I think all women would appreciate it. I lived through the women’s movement of the late sixties when young women who were struggling to survive felt they couldn’t afford to pay $10,000 per year in lost wages for the privilege of a man opening the door.
 
Did you know that Political Correctness began in Russia?

political correctness​

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political correctness (PC), term used to refer to language that seems intended to give the least amount of offense, especially when describing groups identified by external markers such as race, gender, culture, or sexual orientation. The concept has been discussed, disputed, criticized, and satirized by commentators from across the political spectrum. The term has often been used derisively to ridicule the notion that altering language usage can change the public’s perceptions and beliefs as well as influence outcomes.

The term first appeared in Marxist-Leninist vocabulary following the Russian Revolution of 1917. At that time it was used to describe adherence to the policies and principles of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (that is, the party line). During the late 1970s and early 1980s the term began to be used wittily by liberal politicians to refer to the extremism of some left-wing issues, particularly regarding what was perceived as an emphasis on rhetoric over content. In the early 1990s the term was used by conservatives to question and oppose what they perceived as the rise of liberal left-wing curriculum and teaching methods on university and college campuses in the United States. By the late 1990s the usage of the term had again decreased, and it was most frequently employed by comedians and others to lampoon political language. At times it was also used by the left to scoff at conservative political themes.

Linguistically, the practice of what is called “political correctness” seems to be rooted in a desire to eliminate exclusion of various identity groups based on language usage. According to the Sapir-Whorf, or Whorfian, hypothesis, our perception of reality is determined by our thought processes, which are influenced by the language we use. In this way language shapes our reality and tells us how to think about and respond to that reality. Language also reveals and promotes our biases. Therefore, according to the hypothesis, using sexist language promotes sexism and using racial language promotes racism.

Those who are most strongly opposed to so-called “political correctness” view it as censorship and a curtailment of freedom of speech that places limits on debates in the public arena. They contend that such language boundaries inevitably lead to self-censorship and restrictions on behaviour. They further believe that political correctness perceives offensive language where none exists. Others believe that “political correctness” or “politically correct” has been used as an epithet to stop legitimate attempts to curb hate speech and minimize exclusionary speech practices. Ultimately, the ongoing discussion surrounding political correctness seems to centre on language, naming, and whose definitions are accepted.
 
Ah i see now said the blindman - yes I have found that now and can click as well to allow others to join in wow what a millmash that would be or click on not allow meaning I suppose keep it private - way to go wa to go well maybe that is wot the old woodsman was trying to show me all along - ok now for practice time!! - if I don't reply to you immediately I will be involved in a PC with another SM or two or three!
 
fuzzybuddy said:
Marginalizing and ethnically belittling others is now seen as unwanted behaviors in a civilized society
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Ethnically belittling others may be unwanted behavior but marginalizing and belittling women is the last socially acceptable prejudice men have. Have you heard some of the names men call women?
 
TabbyAnn said:
If opening the door was an act of kindness from men rather than a justification for paying women less than men for the same work, I think all women would appreciate it. I lived through the women’s movement of the late sixties when young women who were struggling to survive felt they couldn’t afford to pay $10,000 per year in lost wages for the privilege of a man opening the door.
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My generation, if we were well brought up, automatically opened doors for women, or stood up to give them a seat on the bus. That's what our mothers taught us. And my mother wasn't a meek "little housewife" (in ultra feminist eyes,) but a strong business woman who brought up four children by herself during WWII! Should women be paid the same in the workplace? I never doubted it! The woman who refuses to let me open a door for her is making a snap judgement: All men are chauvinists!
 
TabbyAnn said:
Ethnically belittling others may be unwanted behavior but marginalizing and belittling women is the last socially acceptable prejudice men have. Have you heard some of the names men call women?
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Please do not generalize! Some men call women names would be more accurate. Same as some women think all men are misogynistic rednecks!
 
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Old Salt said:
My generation, if we were well brought up, automatically opened doors for women, or stood up to give them a seat on the bus. That's what our mothers taught us. And my mother wasn't a meek "little housewife" (in ultra feminist eyes,) but a strong business woman
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The subject isn’t about you and your upbringing as hard as that may be for you to understand. The subject is about social prejudice and disrespect for women. During the women’s movement of the sixties, men were fond of telling young women how they personally felt about the movement - as though anyone cared.
 
Other things my Momma taught me. Always enter a restaurant first and pull out the chair for the lady. Always walk close to the curb so your lady is protected from being splashed by cars, or injured in any way. It was called chivalry then! Now it's being called condescension or worse. Most men possess the instinct to protect a woman, is that really so bad? What price equality?
 
Old Salt said:
Other things my Momma taught me. Always enter a restaurant first and pull out the chair for the lady. Always walk close to the curb so your lady is protected from being splashed by cars, or injured in any way. It was called chivalry then! Now it's being called condescension or worse. Most men possess the instinct to protect a woman, is that really so bad? What price equality?
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Movements for social and economic equality aren’t about you and your momma. They’re about basic survival issues in the social, economic, government, and corporate world. Men who think opening doors and pulling chairs is a power broker that will assure male supremacy or threaten women who want equality are ridiculous. Courtesy rituals among equals has continued to be acceptable and is not called condescension. The millions of women and girls who are victims of male supremacist regimes abroad and of rape, torture, murder, domestic violence and trafficking here at home wouldn’t agree that most men possess the instinct to protect women.
 
TabbyAnn said:
The millions of women and girls who are victims of male supremacist regimes abroad and of rape, torture, murder, domestic violence and trafficking here at home wouldn’t agree that most men possess the instinct to protect women.
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For once we agree. There is no one more outraged when it comes to the regimes and organized crime you quoted. These conditions literally make me sick! I have never shared this with anyone, not even my family, but I (along with other boys) was sexually abused as well, by a woman! This took place in a home for undernourished children back in 1946!

But I love women just the same. Those who are monsters should be in jail but most are adorable in my eyes! I can't help it! Can you see what I am saying? You are justly outraged about regimes whose women still can't go out by themselves, you are talking about monsters who traffic in young girls, and I am in complete agreement with you.

But, please, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The vast majority of men are not as you perceive them. They love their partners and treat them with respect! And (with the exception of a redneck minority) believe that women should be equal in board rooms and definitely when it comes to pay! Please, widen your vision, and stop pointing out the excesses we all abhor ... women and men alike! I think my Momma would agree with everything I said, and so would millions of women and men!
 
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It sounds to me that @Old Salt doesn't want to be compared to the men who are a$$holes. A lot of other men don't too. Why? Because they haven't done those things to women & don't agree with it being done either.

In the 80s, I didn't let myself be held back by anyone, let alone a man. I worked for a county government & pay was based on your job classification. My girlfriends who worked in the private sector never told me they had less pay than the men for the same job. That is what I have to go on.

Did it happen at some places? Yes. Did it happen to all women? No.

I'm not going to blame one entire group of people for something a few did no matter what the topic/conversation is about. That is an insult to the good. It's also lowering yourself to the level & thought process of the ones you are angry at.

Teaching young women, or anyone, that they are a victim serves no purpose. IMO, it holds them back instead of inspiring them to stand up for themselves the right way & learning how to deal with a bad situation in their life to make it better. I think it teaches someone it's ok to use violence, threats, vandalism, etc. to get what they want.

Mothers teaching their sons to respect women & see them as equals is a positive thing. To be courteous & help everyone is another good move. That is something young people of either sex aren't being taught too much today.

We can't control what happens in other parts of the world. I certainly don't condone it & neither should anyone else. Would I like to see it fixed? Yes. In reality, there is no easy answer on how to go doing it.

As far as here at home? Stop looking the other way &/or making excuses for criminals. Hold them responsible for their criminal actions & prosecute them. BUT that topic, at the moment, has more to do with politics than with upholding the law & protecting the innocent.

Good men do have an inherent instinct to protect women. I've seen in my family, my friend's family, my co-workers & out on the street. It's the Bad Men who don't. Again, don't blame everyone for the few.
 

Lilac said:
It sounds to me that @Old Salt doesn't want to be compared to the men who are a$$holes. A lot of other men don't too. Why? Because they haven't done those things to women & don't agree with it being done either.

In the 80s, I didn't let myself be held back by anyone, let alone a man. I worked for a county government & pay was based on your job classification. My girlfriends who worked in the private sector never told me they had less pay than the men for the same job. That is what I have to go on.

Did it happen at some places? Yes. Did it happen to all women? No.

I'm not going to blame one entire group of people for something a few did no matter what the topic/conversation is about. That is an insult to the good. It's also lowering yourself to the level & thought process of the ones you are angry at.

Teaching young women, or anyone, that they are a victim serves no purpose. IMO, it holds them back instead of inspiring them to stand up for themselves the right way & learning how to deal with a bad situation in their life to make it better. I think it teaches someone it's ok to use violence, threats, vandalism, etc. to get what they want.

Mothers teaching their sons to respect women & see them as equals is a positive thing. To be courteous & help everyone is another good move. That is something young people of either sex aren't being taught too much today.

We can't control what happens in other parts of the world. I certainly don't condone it & neither should anyone else. Would I like to see it fixed? Yes. In reality, there is no easy answer on how to go doing it.

As far as here at home? Stop looking the other way &/or making excuses for criminals. Hold them responsible for their criminal actions & prosecute them. BUT that topic, at the moment, has more to do with politics than with upholding the law & protecting the innocent.

Good men do have an inherent instinct to protect women. I've seen in my family, my friend's family, my co-workers & out on the street. It's the Bad Men who don't. Again, don't blame everyone for the few.
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Bless you, bless you, bless you for speaking out for reason and moderation! It truly made my day because there was such a reluctance on everyone's part to speak out!
 
I don't know what rabbit hole this thread went down. But this 62 YO female worked a 16 plus shift yesterday and I feel half dead so I'm not thinking straight today either. I'm getting to hold for this
Balzac said:
PC, as I see it, is common courtesy gone mad. When you have to 'walk on eggshells' in case you (unintentionally) offend some poor 'snowflake' then that's what PC seems to mean. Say the wrong thing and you risk being 'cancelled' or becoming a social outcast. There ought to be a bit more give and take in the world. People need to chill out. Yeah, well good luck with that, eh? ;)
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I grew up walking on eggshells. Maybe adults can take it better but we all have feelings and living like that is damaging.
 
Old Salt said:
My generation, if we were well brought up, automatically opened doors for women, or stood up to give them a seat on the bus. That's what our mothers taught us. And my mother wasn't a meek "little housewife" (in ultra feminist eyes,) but a strong business woman who brought up four children by herself during WWII! Should women be paid the same in the workplace? I never doubted it! The woman who refuses to let me open a door for her is making a snap judgement: All men are chauvinists!
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I'm really sorry for a previous reply that you received to this post. It wasn't kind and I don't think you deserved it.
 
TabbyAnn said:
Movements for social and economic equality aren’t about you and your momma. They’re about basic survival issues in the social, economic, government, and corporate world. Men who think opening doors and pulling chairs is a power broker that will assure male supremacy or threaten women who want equality are ridiculous. Courtesy rituals among equals has continued to be acceptable and is not called condescension. The millions of women and girls who are victims of male supremacist regimes abroad and of rape, torture, murder, domestic violence and trafficking here at home wouldn’t agree that most men possess the instinct to protect women.
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Why are you posting these nasty comments to OldSalt's posts? I don't see that he is saying anything negative about women. I'm a gay man and have always opened doors and pulled out chairs for women. That is the result of the manners that I was taught, mostly by my "Momma". Does that make me a misogynist who doesn't think women should get ahead? I think not.

Some of my best bosses have been women. I think the country and most companies would be better off with women leaders. Why are you so belligerent? Just curious.
 
I am not much for political correctness, but I do try to practice common courtesy.

Some times that courtesy includes doing and saying things I don't completely agree with or understand, so maybe that's what some would call PC.
A good example is the confederate flag, I grew up seeing it as a symbol of southern pride, and sometimes still feel that way a little. However I now know that for reasons I only partially understand some see it as racist and an insult. Rather than sort all that out I don't display or approve of displaying the stars and bars. No big loss to me, and hopefully it makes others feel a little better.

I have mixed feelings on the statues, best not to forget our past, but honoring the defense of slavery isn't what I want. New Orleans used to have a monument to white supremacy, the Battle of Liberty Place Monument. Last time I saw it was in the 70s and it was a gathering place for black folks protesting, somewhere I have a picture of the monument with people, who looked like black panthers, doing the black power salute. They wanted me to take pictures. Seemed to me the monument was serving a useful purpose, a sign that things were getting better, but not denying our past. Its now long gone - I'm not sure that's for the best.

I think courtesy to others is important, PC not so much...
 
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seadoug said:
Why are you posting these nasty comments to OldSalt's posts?
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You are posting nasty comments about me that aren’t true. I have never posted a nasty comment about Old Salt. I just pointed out that women’s rights movements are about women in general - not about his personal relationship with his momma. And I might point out the same thing about you.

Whenever economic equality for women comes up, some old guy will always bring up the specter of men not opening doors for women as though that is a huge leverage men can use to frighten women who want equality. And men like you will call women who mention it belligerent, like you called me in your post.

Women had more leverage during the women’s movement when one faction suggested women stop wiping men’s rear ends when they’re little and turn early childhood care over to men. When that started boiling up, male CEOs and politicians got busy with more equal pay, promotions, and laws.
 

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