It is every man for himself in this world,....!

grahamg

grahamg

Old codger
Location
South of Manchester, UK
My father used to emphasise to all his children that "It is every man for himself in this world"!

Obviously self reliance is a positive character trait or aspiration, and encouraging children to think for themselves and become independent is fine too, but can my fathers advice be taken too far, and where does it leave loving relationships, where reliance upon one another is intrinsic to their success and happiness, (isn't it?)?

John Donne said "No man is an Island, entire of itself, every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main,...", so this seems to contradict my fathers assertions doesn't it. :)
 

John Donne was right. Never cared much for his or John Milton's poetry though.

Emily Dickinson had a similar thought of "Standing alone".

EMILY DICKINSON
The Props assist the House
Until the House is built
And then the Props withdraw
And adequate, erect,
The House support itself
And cease to recollect
The Augur and the Carpenter –
Just such a retrospect
Hath the perfected Life –
A Past of Plank and Nail
And slowness – then the scaffolds drop
Affirming it a Soul –
 

grahamg said:
I see,....., its unanimous then, as no one has commented I'll have to assume my father was right, it is every one for himself after all in this world and "John Donne lied"!!!!! :(
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Tommy said:
If your father truly believed that (which I prefer to doubt), then he must have been a frustrated, lonely, bitter man indeed.
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Like father like son ☺️ ...I'm kidding because hopefully you were kidding, right graham? I mean it hadn't been more than 1/2 a day. Or were you just trying to recharge your thread? It worked(y)
`
 
grahamg said:
My father used to emphasise to all his children that "It is every man for himself in this world"!
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My thoughts about your father's statement may have seemed true to him in context and time, and somewhat true regarding independence and life choices. Personally, I do not compete against the world. I'm along for the experience.
 
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It is every man for himself in this world,....!​


Nada

I've been one for self reliance
That was accentuated when living at our mountain cabin
'Best git to it....nobodies gonna do it for ya'

But

Helping others has a huge benefit to self

so is accepting help

Caring goes full circle

Its a romance of the heart (a pretty vital organ)
 
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I think our perception of the world mirrors our thoughts and gets reflected in our reality of it.
If we believe that we are all alone and everyone else is also then we will be completely disconnected from the Devine love and intelligence our world has to offer. If we believe we are connected to all that we see by Devine love and intelligence then that is what will be reflected back to us.
We see in our world , our accumulated beliefs.
 
Tommy said:
If your father truly believed that (which I prefer to doubt), then he must have been a frustrated, lonely, bitter man indeed.
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No, he was truly a very popular man, "so popular in fact he used to say how popular he was", ("with a big ego" I admit, though his brother told me it was true, if I'd ever doubted it, everywhere he went everyone told him how much they liked my dad).

However, you correctly put your finger on one point, though my dad did say the things I've told you, he didn't act that way himself, (certainly not towards his children, nor of course my mother). He was a hard man in business, no fool at all, and stuck up for himself, but once or twice he went out of his way to stick up for other farmers who were being taken advantage of perhaps, (remembering how their families had helped him when he started out in farming in one notable case).
 
grahamg said:
My father used to emphasise to all his children that "It is every man for himself in this world"!

Obviously self reliance is a positive character trait or aspiration, and encouraging children to think for themselves and become independent is fine too, but can my fathers advice be taken too far, and where does it leave loving relationships, where reliance upon one another is intrinsic to their success and happiness, (isn't it?)?

John Donne said "No man is an Island, entire of itself, every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main,...", so this seems to contradict my fathers assertions doesn't it. :)
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I am very much in favor of the philosophy "A rising tide raises all boats".
 
I think it's a "yes', and "no' thing. Yes, it is every man for himself, up to a point. And that point being, when a man obtains what he wants as his basic needs - home, shelter, food, money, etc. But if a man wants to expands his vision to much larger goals than mere sustenance, he is going to need the aid of others. So then, it's "no", when a man tries to build for the common good, or a community endeavor., with the help of athers.
 
Once again I'm going to recommend the book Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman. It has many examples of which show that compassion and cooperative behavior (at least within our own "tribes") is the rule as opposed to the exception. I think it might give you a different perspective on human beings. It also provides evidence to counter the results of several of the famous psychological studies which claimed to expose humans darker nature.
 
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911 said:
I don't quite get your point as to why you continually ask human behavioral questions. I don't mean any disrespect, but I am curious.
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We humans are fascinating creatures, have you ever seen a primate look at the mirror of himself? The fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree.
 
911 said:
I don't quite get your point as to why you continually ask human behavioral questions. I don't mean any disrespect, but I am curious.
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Fair question.

In all likelihood the most honest answer is I don't have anything better to do with my time, BUT, (there's always a "but"), my mother probably had a similar trait in her personality, and she had a gift for writing poetry I don't possess unfortunately, and she'd cover everything up to and including the meaning of life question.
 
asp3 said:
Once again I'm going to recommend the book Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman. It has many examples of which show that compassion and cooperative behavior (at least within our own "tribes") is the rule as opposed to the exception. I think it might give you a different perspective on human beings. It also provides evidence to counter the results of several of the famous psychological studies which claimed to expose humans darker nature.
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I think I agree, and the only argument I've got left to use against your points concern the thinking of someone I used to call my "second mother ".
She used to assert when challenged by those with a more sentimental view perhaps, "that we come into this world alone, and leave the same way", (can't remember how this conversation originated, but it was with a local priest or minister). In that sense we are alone aren't we.
Oh, and recalling that statement has brought to mind the words of a farming friend of my fathers, who used to say, " Most folks don't think about three dying day", (perhaps thinking about the way we all get wrapped up bothering ourselves about trivia, or money).
"Cheerful turn the discussion has taken hey!" :)
 
grahamg said:
I think I agree, and the only argument I've got left to use against your points concern the thinking of someone I used to call my "second mother ".
She used to assert when challenged by those with a more sentimental view perhaps, "that we come into this world alone, and leave the same way", (can't remember how this conversation originated, but it was with a local priest or minister). In that sense we are alone aren't we.
Oh, and recalling that statement has brought to mind the words of a farming friend of my fathers, who used to say, " Most folks don't think about three dying day", (perhaps thinking about the way we all get wrapped up bothering ourselves about trivia, or money).
"Cheerful turn the discussion has taken hey!" :)
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I'd respond to your second mother thusly. We usually come into the world with at least two people (mother and father) in our life and often have many more. Also many people leave this world surrounded by loved ones when possible.

So though I would agree that we are ultimately alone in this life we are often able to surround ourselves with loving, friendly and/or supportive people if we so choose. I do agree that some people are not afforded such opportunities or are never given the tools to be able to do so but I think that's a minority of people.

I would also agree that there are many lonely people in the world some are still lonely even if they are surrounded by loving, friendly and/or supportive people. I'm thinking that lonely might be the wrong word for this though. Such people are not getting what they desire or crave from those around them.
 
grahamg said:
My father used to emphasise to all his children that "It is every man for himself in this world"!
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If that's the case then the UK wouldn't have an NHS. Every time that you have visited a doctor, been a hospital patient or needed surgery, every tax payer in the country has had to foot the bill. Of course, you can buck the system, there's plenty of private medical care companies only too willing to take your cash.
 
asp3 said:
I'd respond to your second mother thusly. We usually come into the world with at least two people (mother and father) in our life and often have many more. Also many people leave this world surrounded by loved ones when possible.

So though I would agree that we are ultimately alone in this life we are often able to surround ourselves with loving, friendly and/or supportive people if we so choose. I do agree that some people are not afforded such opportunities or are never given the tools to be able to do so but I think that's a minority of people.

I would also agree that there are many lonely people in the world some are still lonely even if they are surrounded by loving, friendly and/or supportive people. I'm thinking that lonely might be the wrong word for this though. Such people are not getting what they desire or crave from those around them.
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I liked the use of the word "thusly", (it his a word I hope?).
You'd have enjoyed a conversation with my good friend I'm sure, and got this business well and truly sorted perhaps, (she had a very fertile mind, and wrote moving poetry, so similar to my mother in that respect).
I must admit I find this "saying goodbye to those who are about to pass on a bit odd", (but its probably just me!).
 

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