Judge rules against Johnson & Johnson in landmark opioid case in Oklahoma

fuzzybuddy

fuzzybuddy

SF VIP
Location
The Sticks, Northeast PA.
A huge pharmaceutical company gets sued for downplaying the effects of opiods to doctors.
I have to say that while drug companies soft peddled the effects of opiods, doctors did prescribe them, and they wrote lots and lots of prescriptions. Maybe, at first, addiction was not that well documented, yet, the evidence was piling up up rather fast. I think if we are going to haul drug companies to the chopping block for what they did, we ought to hold doctors to the same standards. The drug companies couldn't make a dime if doctors didn't prescribe the drugs. And even if doctors weren't told of the true nature of the drug, that doesn't excuse the over prescribing of them. When hear about how doctors were 'duped' into prescribing the drugs, I think of those notorious "pain clinics" in Florida. Doctors opened 'pain clinics'. They were nothing more than a desk and a prescription pad. Most pts. never even saw a doctor. Some doctors had over ten "clinics". No, I don't think ALL doctors had prescription mills. But , for a variety of reasons, doctors willingly over prescribed these drugs.
There's my two cents.
 

Opioids over-prescribing has gone on since the ‘90’s. I take issue with the report. The pharmaceutical companies, doctors and hospitals all knew that opiates were highly addictive even back then.

The issue was always about controlling pain by staying ahead of it. To do this, doctors would prescribe the taking of the pain pills on a schedule, such as; “Take two pills every 6-8 hours.” Vicodin, Percocet and their generics; hydrocodone and oxycodone was just the beginning. When the patient became immune from these, there were more stronger pills. Dilaudid or Hydromorphone, the generic would normally be the next step. Next up may be Fentanyl. And on and on. Yes, there are still stronger opiates like Demerol, Opana or Nucynta. Or, just take pure Morphine.

The problem with opiates is that the body will become immune to them and the patient will then need to take more to get the same desired effect. And, that’s when addiction sets in. So, now the patient finds him or herself going to rehab and when released the patient will be released and may be prescribed Suboxone to counter the cravings. Too many former users of these opiates find themselves on the street buying Heroin or Meth.

Suboxone is a synthetic opiate made up of Buprenorphine and Naloxone. The Naloxone is like the Narcan that blocks the effects of the opiates.

I had an abscess tooth once and was prescribed Darvocet. I felt really weird on it, so I dumped them in the garbage. Had I known what they were, I would have done away with them better.

That’s it in a nutshell.
 

When I had rotator cuff surgery, I really did need a strong pain killer for the first few days, but those thing made me feel like crap. They made me feel like I didn't care about anything. I got off those as soon as I could and tossed the remaining ones.

I completely fail to see how anyone could take those things for recreational purposes, but apparently they do.
 
I hate to see the use of pain killers restricted for people in need of relief because some people have problems with using them as prescribed or because some people become addicted to them.

IMO they should be prescribed in reasonable quantities and come with instructions for use as well as instructions on how to access help if you cannot wean yourself off of them when the need for pain management has passed.

Maybe I'm just old and exasperated but It seems that more and more these days the majority of people are being punished in misguided efforts to protect the minority of people from themselves.
 
Opium/opioid addiction has been a human "frailty" for centuries. In the 1800's, thru the early 1900's, Laudanum was the "go to" drug for pain problems, and could be bought almost anywhere. Around 1920, the govt. began to crack down on opium sales and created new regulations, such that these drugs were mostly sold illegally. Over the years, the drug companies have lobbied hard for relaxation of the rules, and today it is almost as easy to get "Oxy", as it is to get a bottle of aspirin. As a result, large number of people are getting hooked, and overdose deaths are rising substantially.
 
Actually, Laudanum was being used back in the 1600's and I think it originally came from England. Some of the other opiates were developed by German scientists. These drugs went from being used by patients with serious pain issues to being used by the ordinary Joe as a social drug and a way of getting high.

The problem with overuse of opiates is their potential to causing death. The user will start out taking low doses of these drugs and their body will become slowly immune to the drugs, so more and more will have to be taken to obtain the desired effect. The problem is that the user is unaware that by taking larger doses, a person't breathing is affected. They keep increasing the dose until they take too much and they cause respiration failure, have a heart attack and die. This only takes minutes. If the user takes an opiate and a Benzodiazepine, like Xanax, the user also risks death. Or, if they take any of these opiates and add alcohol, it's "good bye, ya'll".
 
Aunt Bea said:
I hate to see the use of pain killers restricted for people in need of relief because some people have problems with using them as prescribed or because some people become addicted to them.

IMO they should be prescribed in reasonable quantities and come with instructions for use as well as instructions on how to access help if you cannot wean yourself off of them when the need for pain management has passed.

Maybe I'm just old and exasperated but It seems that more and more these days the majority of people are being punished in misguided efforts to protect the minority of people from themselves.
Click to expand...

Aunt Bea: Many states have been collecting a patient's information that is using an opiate into a database. They are limited to the number of pills that they may receive on a monthly basis. By doing this, the addicts cannot doctor and hospital shop to get more and more pills per month. If I go to a doctor and he gives me a script for 60 pills of Hydrocodone (Vicodin), and I would go through those pills before the refill is due, I could not go to a different doctor and get another script for an additional amount of pills in the same month. The second script would be rejected by the database and the pharmacist would not be allowed to fill the script even if he/she wanted to because laws are now in place to prevent him/her from doing so.

There are also laws in place that eliminate patients with severe illnesses from the above mentioned rules and may need additional medication to relieve their pain. Cancer patients and those with severe illnesses or terminal illnesses are able to get the medication needed to control their pain. These laws have been in place for a number of years and continue to be updated as they are recommended by the CDC, the AMA and the FDA.

As for this lawsuit, I would expect J&J to appeal the verdict and drag this case on for many years. Will the people prevail? I really don't know. We'll have to wait and see.
 
Aunt Bea said:
I hate to see the use of pain killers restricted for people in need of relief because some people have problems with using them as prescribed or because some people become addicted to them.

IMO they should be prescribed in reasonable quantities and come with instructions for use as well as instructions on how to access help if you cannot wean yourself off of them when the need for pain management has passed.

Maybe I'm just old and exasperated but It seems that more and more these days the majority of people are being punished in misguided efforts to protect the minority of people from themselves.
Click to expand...


I strongly agree. I think the restriction of use in patients who really need them is both inhumane and unconscionable, and maybe even a bit sadistic. Just because certain people abuse something does not justify withholding pain relief from people whose lives depend on it. Neither does the fact that certain unscrupulous physicians set up so-called pain clinics and dispensed the meds irresponsibly and for personal gain.

Ask a cancer patient or a person with failed back surgery syndrome or any one of a myriad of extremely painful conditions how they feel about this whole complete demonization of the use of drugs to relieve their pain.

Whatever happened to holding the individual responsible for their choices?
 
Don M. said:
Opium/opioid addiction has been a human "frailty" for centuries. In the 1800's, thru the early 1900's, Laudanum was the "go to" drug for pain problems, and could be bought almost anywhere. Around 1920, the govt. began to crack down on opium sales and created new regulations, such that these drugs were mostly sold illegally. Over the years, the drug companies have lobbied hard for relaxation of the rules, and today it is almost as easy to get "Oxy", as it is to get a bottle of aspirin. As a result, large number of people are getting hooked, and overdose deaths are rising substantially.
Click to expand...

So, then, the fault lies with the drug itself, meant to relieve terrible pain, and not with the person who abuses it?
 
911 said:
Aunt Bea: Many states have been collecting a patient's information that is using an opiate into a database. They are limited to the number of pills that they may receive on a monthly basis. By doing this, the addicts cannot doctor and hospital shop to get more and more pills per month. If I go to a doctor and he gives me a script for 60 pills of Hydrocodone (Vicodin), and I would go through those pills before the refill is due, I could not go to a different doctor and get another script for an additional amount of pills in the same month. The second script would be rejected by the database and the pharmacist would not be allowed to fill the script even if he/she wanted to because laws are now in place to prevent him/her from doing so.

There are also laws in place that eliminate patients with severe illnesses from the above mentioned rules and may need additional medication to relieve their pain. Cancer patients and those with severe illnesses or terminal illnesses are able to get the medication needed to control their pain. These laws have been in place for a number of years and continue to be updated as they are recommended by the CDC, the AMA and the FDA.

As for this lawsuit, I would expect J&J to appeal the verdict and drag this case on for many years. Will the people prevail? I really don't know. We'll have to wait and see.
Click to expand...

When my niece was dying of colon cancer a couple years ago, we had one hell of a time getting pharmacists to fill her pain medication prescriptions, in spite of the fact that she had legitimate prescriptions made by a legitimate and well respected oncologist, and despite the oncologist herself contacting the pharmacy to let them know that the pain medications were medically necessary and that the amount of pain relief needed was naturally escalating as my niece's disease progressed toward its inevitable result in death.

We did finally get the matter resolved, but not before my niece spent some time experiencing the full pain of advanced colon cancer. If you've never spent time holding a hand and helplessly watching someone writhe and moan in terrible pain, you have no idea of the impact of withholding of adequate pain control.

The very idea of some regulatory agency being able to override a reputable physician's judgment about pain control is appalling.
 
Butterfly——This is what I know about New Mexico re: opiates. In the past, New Mexico has had very serious problems with opiate overdoses. In fact, NM may be in the top 2 or 3 states in the country with deaths due to opiate overdose. This is what has prompted the state to take action. I think at one time, the state legislature decided to override the CDC Guidelines and established their own. Where they stand today, I do not know or have access to.

Here in PA, we follow the CDC guidelines for the dispensing of opiates that eliminate those patients with life threatening illnesses. All they need is a letter or note on the doctor’s prescription pad, stating their condition, date and signature in wet ink. NO copy or ink stamp is allowed.
 
My state is supposed to be one of the worst for opiate addiction. I hate listening to my pain management doctor record my records and state that I am not "doctor shopping" to get my pain medication. I have been legally put on Medicare to get help with pain from several issues, so these types of medications. I took myself off them because of the stigma. I think it's sad that it came to that point. I miss the pills because I AM in pain. I prefer it to feeling like a bad person for needing it, from all the negative publicity. So I do feel they have a place for those who really need them.
 
Sure there are issues but there are many abuses and ignorance when it comes to patients and doctors. Throw in the addicts it a mess.

But I don't want to restrict these pain killers for those that need them. Some years I was prescribed opioids at least three times a year for dental issues and other surgery. I don't even think they worked that well, they relaxed me as much as anything. No hankering for more or the next dose.

Many won't like this but much of this anti opioid frenzy comes from distraught family and friends blaming their addicts behavior on Big Pharma and the medical industry rather than poor choices, lack of discipline, lifestyle etc of the addict. Then throw in patients who conflate discomfort with pain or make pain worse by over thinking working themselves into a frenzy obsessing with their injury of course any pain killer could become addictive for them.

This doesn't excuse some of the marketing techniques Big Pharma used/uses or the doctors lack of patient supervision but these need to be dealt with case by case not painting a broad brush across everyone involved.
 
When I injured my neck I had excruciating pain and was prescribed vicoden by my anesthesiologist doctor. I had to see him about 4 times for injections of steroids or better known as a "block." I got addicted to the vidocen in a short time--such a feel good feeling, too. I did research on them and saw they can lead to kidney failure. I had to withdraw from them with nothing or cold turkey! It was very hard but I did it regardless. Glad I have been off of those for several years. :giggle: The opiates are very addicting and the shortest term use should be indicated I guess except for those who cannot get any other form of relief. They run the risk of kidney failure.
 
Aunt Bea said:
I hate to see the use of pain killers restricted for people in need of relief because some people have problems with using them as prescribed or because some people become addicted to them.

IMO they should be prescribed in reasonable quantities and come with instructions for use as well as instructions on how to access help if you cannot wean yourself off of them when the need for pain management has passed.

Maybe I'm just old and exasperated but It seems that more and more these days the majority of people are being punished in misguided efforts to protect the minority of people from themselves.
Click to expand...


I agree, and that last sentence pretty much says it all .......... about many things.
 
This is in some way similar to the gun debate. How is it the pill manufactures fault , if their product is improperly used , by a select few?

I have a huge amount of day to day pain due to arthritis, spinal stenosis, etc. I have never been prescribed opiates , nor have i asked for them. But ...... I am on the verge of doing just that. Now it sounds like I may well be denied due to the irresponsible behavior of others.

So J&J makes a product that may very well bring some relief too me. But due to mass law suits, & doctors now being reluctant to set themselves up for one , I might well be told, sorry we can't help you.
 
Last edited:
Let's step back for a bit. There are a lot of over the top scare tactics about opiods by some groups. They are the same people, who won't buy a new car if it isn't gluten free.. Opioids have a legitimate place in medicine. They stop pain. And there is no reason why they can't juduciously be used. I blame doctors for over prescribing opioids. Yes, initially they had to rely on company reps for most of their information, but when the picture of addiction began to take shape, they still prescribed them. There are a lot of people, who made a buck of opiods. Now, what I find equally stupid is NOT prescribing them. I came out of a nursing home in May. My old GP is 30 miles away. The doctor group, which he belongs, opened a clinic just a few miles from me. I decided to change to the new clinic, since they have all my records. I was told that the dotors at the clinic do not prescribe any opiods. HUH? Really? What jackass of a doctor refuses to use a whole section of the pharmacy? There are risks in precribing cardiac medication, so I guess they won't use any of them. What about diabetic meds- well, let's not use them, either. Yes, doctors did over prescribe opiods. I think it's just as dumb to be goaded, by public opinion, into a foolish position of NOT prescribing them, when there is a justified need.
(My two cents.)
 
Last edited:
It's easy to over prescribe all types of medications and/or not pay attention to side effects. I know someone who was on 3 bp medications at onetime and they wound up with low bp. One was a cross purpose medication but apparently the doctors failed to take that into consideration. Another just kept upping the dosage when the person went through a period of no progress/high bp. The patient stopped all three on their own along with regular walking and steadily went from low to normal. This is part of the problem with production line medicine because no one wants to take the time to stop and think.
 
There are a lot of arguments back and forth about doing or not doing away with opiates. Some believe that the U.S. should just pass a law stating that prescribing or using using opiates would be illegal. OTOH, some politicians argue that doing so may push those users to even stronger opiates, such as Heroin.

The CDC established a set of guidelines for prescribing opiates that some states have adopted. Pennsylvania, for instance, will only allow a doctor to hand the patient a prescription for opiates, but only a 7-day supply.

The other issue is how to control the pain when the user has either a severe illness or injury that comes with unimaginable pain levels or those that are terminally ill. Pennsylvania politicians believe that by eliminating those patients with severe illness or injury or the terminally ill would allow those patients to use what doctors would prescribe as legal. Some states have also adopted this policy.

People that followed their doctor’s prescribed doses of opiates and still became addicted are what we call “collateral damage” caused by poor judgment of their physician. Believe me, doctors have been well aware of the powers of these drugs. Over time, people that were on opiates had their endorphins severely damaged. But, that’s another story for another day.

Going forward, many states are still involved in making their opiate policy. IMO, at least for now and until someone comes up with a better policy, I believe that all states should adopt the CDC Guidelines, at least temporarily anyway. It’s better to have a policy in place than nothing.
 
WhatInThe said:
It's easy to over prescribe all types of medications and/or not pay attention to side effects. I know someone who was on 3 bp medications at onetime and they wound up with low bp. One was a cross purpose medication but apparently the doctors failed to take that into consideration. Another just kept upping the dosage when the person went through a period of no progress/high bp. The patient stopped all three on their own along with regular walking and steadily went from low to normal. This is part of the problem with production line medicine because no one wants to take the time to stop and think.
Click to expand...


And doctors in groups....really cannot take the time to stop & think or worse yet treat completely..... due to the 'billable' hour/production line approach to medicine these days.
 
"There are a lot of arguments back and forth about doing or not doing away with opiates. "
Your mother is laying in bed with excrutiating pain from bone cancer . Just lifting the sheet of fher body causes unbeareble waves of pain. She screams out to kill her to end her agony. Then there's your son, who had 40% of his body burnt in a car accident. It's time to scrub the burnt flesh from his body with a steel brush. His screams can be heard at the end of the block. Since we outlawed opiates, we can let them scream and writhe in agony. There's nothing else to give them. There is no such thing as a BAD opiate. It is the misuse of them, which is the problem. Every drug has side effects. For God's sake, even water has side effects. Let's ban water. And stop that breathing. Hey, this makes just as much sense as banning opiates.



There are a lot of arguments back and forth about doing or not doing away with opiates.




911
Well-known member








There are a lot of arguments back and forth about doing or not doing away with opiates.

Location USA






911
Well-known member


Location USA




Today at 10:39 AM




There are a lot of arguments back and forth about doing or not doing away with opiates.



Today at 10:39 AM




There are a lot of arguments back and forth about doing or not doing away with opiates.
 
It really is a shame the way that it's been handled. I felt I really needed the medication, and struggled to come off of it. One of the reasons I did it was because I was labeled. Once, after a hospital stay, I had a paper shoved in my face that said I was "a such-and-such year old lady dependent on opioids". That just didn't sit well with me. My doctor has prescribed Narcan for me. All for a small dose of Norco. I think there has a been a bit of overreaction on the issue. It really makes me mad. I need my medication. Yes, I made the decision to go off of it, but I'm stubborn, and I will do my own labeling of myself.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top