Learning About Transgender People

[Ray]

But what if they are 'not randy boys' but are actually 'randy girls stuck in the wrong body'?

I just had a thought that human sexuality and identity are maybe more a matter of 'degrees'. Like what do you do then with children who are born with parts of both reproductive organs. It's called ambiguous *******ia. If the physical organs can be 'confused', why not the mental identity that the children grow up with, i.e. being inappropriate to the physical exterior?

So yeah, I think learning to understand transgender people does require a little bit more than simply going for coffee and asking 'what are your hobbies'. Not obviously that you're going to sit there and opine on all of this with them, but to simply make you aware of the possibility that their perspective on issues might be coming from a different place than mine or yours Ruthanne or yours Ray.

All true, Debby. See my response to Aeron.

 

[aeron]

That is a good point. I've always wondered why, for example, the military assigns barracks by gender but mixes homosexual with straight. I guess there just isn't an answer to all possible permutations.

Once you open the door to anyone can be anything he/she wants on any particular day you throw out all standards. That is why (particularly with regards to toilets) I prefer to apply the KISS principle - "plumbing appropriate".

Why should anyone NOT be what they want to be and why SHOULD that mean that "standards" be "thrown out" if they do?

For that matter what ARE these "standards"?

As for being plumbing appropriate unisex urinals are not in the least bit uncommon but increasingly in Europe it is becoming increasingly unacceptable for men when in public lavatories to urinate standing up.

In Belgium, Holland, and Germany unisex lavatories are almost de rigeur along with usually female attendants and other than visiting Americans or to a lesser extent Canadians no one gives it a second thought.

 

[rt3]

Why should anyone NOT be what they want to be and why SHOULD that mean that "standards" be "thrown out" if they do?

For that matter what ARE these "standards"?

As for being plumbing appropriate unisex urinals are not in the least bit uncommon but increasingly in Europe it is becoming increasingly unacceptable for men when in public lavatories to urinate standing up.

In Belgium, Holland, and Germany unisex lavatories are almost de rigeur along with usually female attendants and other than visiting Americans or to a lesser extent Canadians no one gives it a second thought.

Certainly would be cheaper besides, one size fits all, bigger fans

 

[rt3]

Debbie reread Moofies post stop at her word hormones reread mine stop reread hers about drag queens and transgender.

transgender hormone therapy includes changing the various ratios to achieve another goal by injection

its all chemical before and after

 

[Ray]

Why should anyone NOT be what they want to be and why SHOULD that mean that "standards" be "thrown out" if they do?

For that matter what ARE these "standards"?

As for being plumbing appropriate unisex urinals are not in the least bit uncommon but increasingly in Europe it is becoming increasingly unacceptable for men when in public lavatories to urinate standing up.

In Belgium, Holland, and Germany unisex lavatories are almost de rigeur along with usually female attendants and other than visiting Americans or to a lesser extent Canadians no one gives it a second thought.

"Standards" such as the definition of male and female. A good example of the absurdity of such things is that woman who, although caucasian, decided she "felt" black and passed for black actually getting a job with the NAACP. Not that there is anything wrong with a white person working for the NAACP but she "passed for black". Suppose I am working and "decide" I am a woman, do I get into "upward mobility" programs? If I "decide" I am black, do I get special consideration when applying for a government contract?

That is what I mean by "standards".

 

[SeaBreeze]

I am a mother of a transgender son whom I adore for his courage and strength. He is not a transvestite. Transvestites simply dress in the opposite gender's clothing. Someone transgender needs to have a physical body change to feel comfortable with life. My son genuinely wants a normal life such as you and I in a body that he can relate to. He has gone through surgery to become a man. He has changed his gender marker on his birth certificate. He is a man now...my son. He does not live a flamboyant life. He is not looking for attention. He is a normal male in every sense and a thousand times happier living comfortably as a man because emotionally and mentally he has always been male inside. I saw my 'daughter' grow up very shy, withdrawn and downhearted. Now 'she' is a man and living very happily about to be married. Finally found his comfort zone to live normally. If I had not mentioned he was transgender you would have no idea. What he went through to become a man took amazing strength and courage...hormones, surgery, facing family (the whole family loves him unconditionally), friends, legally with all the paperwork and proof to be a man now. This is not something done on a whim. He is a man inside and out now. The packaging changed to make him whole. All the worry I had are now gone that he is now happy..truly happy feeling complete.

Moofies, I'm so glad to hear that your son is finally happy and content with his life. I wish him a positive and successful future, you're a good Mom for supporting him through all of this. :love_heart:

 

[aeron]

"Standards" such as the definition of male and female. A good example of the absurdity of such things is that woman who, although caucasian, decided she "felt" black and passed for black actually getting a job with the NAACP. Not that there is anything wrong with a white person working for the NAACP but she "passed for black". Suppose I am working and "decide" I am a woman, do I get into "upward mobility" programs? If I "decide" I am black, do I get special consideration when applying for a government contract?

That is what I mean by "standards".

Standards are set references that are used as datum points against which things can be measured or more loosely descriptions and functionality that must be complied with. Reading your definitions​ what you describe is subjective and based on datums that you have set.

If a Caucasian woman decides to emulate what she believes are the factors that affect non-Caucasian people maybe using her experience as a Caucasian then why not? It is more than possible she can bring things to the party that are not obvious to the people that she decides to associate herself with.

Similarly if a person realises that they are in fact transgender and decides to live accordingly then why should they not be entitled to take advantage of programme to assist in upward mobility?

And a person decides to genuinely take on a particular persona with all that with it goes why should they not be entitled to any advantages that a person is entitled to?

This has descended into attempting to employ the logic of reductio ad absurdum but is bound to fail because there is absolutely nothing wrong or unnatural about different sexuality of people nor is a difference between physical and emotional other than just part of the natural variation of animals and at the end of the day people are just animals.

 

[Ray]

Standards are set references that are used as datum points against which things can be measured or more loosely descriptions and functionality that must be complied with. Reading your definitions​ what you describe is subjective and based on datums that you have set.

If a Caucasian woman decides to emulate what she believes are the factors that affect non-Caucasian people maybe using her experience as a Caucasian then why not? It is more than possible she can bring things to the party that are not obvious to the people that she decides to associate herself with.

Similarly if a person realises that they are in fact transgender and decides to live accordingly then why should they not be entitled to take advantage of programme to assist in upward mobility?

And a person decides to genuinely take on a particular persona with all that with it goes why should they not be entitled to any advantages that a person is entitled to?

This has descended into attempting to employ the logic of reductio ad absurdum but is bound to fail because there is absolutely nothing wrong or unnatural about different sexuality of people nor is a difference between physical and emotional other than just part of the natural variation of animals and at the end of the day people are just animals.

Agreed - there is nothing wrong with the difference between the physical and emotional within a person. However, society cannot organize itself without some standards. In this case (as in the case of the girls shower room) "plumbing" seems to be a rational standard.

BTW, I guess I haven't gotten to "the end of the day" as yet since I see humans on a higher plane with higher capabilities demanding higher standards than animals.

 

[Debby]

Debbie reread Moofies post stop at her word hormones reread mine stop reread hers about drag queens and transgender.

transgender hormone therapy includes changing the various ratios to achieve another goal by injection

its all chemical before and after

'You' are all about chemicals, 'I' am all about chemicals, it's just that ours match the outside.

 

[aeron]

Agreed - there is nothing wrong with the difference between the physical and emotional within a person. However, society cannot organize itself without some standards. In this case (as in the case of the girls shower room) "plumbing" seems to be a rational standard.

BTW, I guess I haven't gotten to "the end of the day" as yet since I see humans on a higher plane with higher capabilities demanding higher standards than animals.

Society does have standards, or more correctly acceptable norms but these constantly change as society changes and evolved.

Today transgender people are just people and homosexual people are just people and transvestite people are just people and society is all the better for it. Why should physical differences between genders be a reason to discriminate?

At Cite Europe, the huge shopping mall at Coquelles (french end of the Tunnel Sous la Manche) there's virtually no discrimination between lavatories and people often use either at busy times and no one bats an eyelid. In smaller towns there are only unisex lavatories and on camp site unisex showers and again no one bothers about it.

I believe that some people are just too uptight about a thing that people just don't bother about, a bit like going topless or even stark naked on some Med beaches and camp sites.

 

[rt3]

'You' are all about chemicals, 'I' am all about chemicals, it's just that ours match the outside.

Not shure what outside means

what I'm saying is that transgender do have have genetic changes from higher levels of certain drugs from early childhood

what I am saying is that transgender can be changed back with the knowledge that has evolved in the last 20 years about hormone therapy

what at I am saying is it may be to cruel to do that

 

[tnthomas]

Because it's where the issue rises above the surface for people who are transgender having to deal with public perception and strictly defined gender facilities. Best would be to adopt the growing trend over here and have unisex facilities. Issue solved.

For many years a lot of public restrooms have been "unisex", basically a one person restroom that is gender neutral.

 

[rt3]

A lot of public restrooms are "unisex", basically a one person restroom that is gender neutral.

Yes and good thing -- the last remaining bastion of solitude in an overly crowded environment to take a big one, er I mean one could they do?

 

[rt3]

And a person decides to genuinely take on a particular persona with all that with it goes why should they not be entitled to any advantages that a person is entitled to?

while the discussion to this point has involved people who have been exposed to a series of chemical events that are considered by some groups as abnormal, the above statement needs closer examination in light of its potential implications.

Specifically the use of genetic and performance enhancement using hormones and adjuncts such as blood packing. Women will no longer be competitive in womens sports. In fact it could become a transgender sport. How can a sports organization outlaw discrimination in an activity when its oked by the law of land.

and extending this to entitlement of specific legal rights afforded to the category previously known as women under the law? also vise vera for those converting to the other way gaining those advantages due to the catoragory previously known as men.

But the real question here is more serious and could be devastating. What will happen to the Dallas Cheerleaders? Will they be replaced by a bunch of Bruce Jenner symbiots?

And womens beach volley ball. I...I can't go on.

 

[Butterfly]

I never understood (and still don't) why everybody all of a sudden got so wrapped around the axle about transgender people using the "wrong" bathroom. Presumably this has been going on forever and nobody knew or cared or got all weird about it until the last couple of years. In most women's bathrooms in the US, anyway, there are separate stalls, so what difference does all this really make??? I've never in my life worried or wondered if the person in the next stall was female or not.

 

[Ray]

Society does have standards, or more correctly acceptable norms but these constantly change as society changes and evolved.

Today transgender people are just people and homosexual people are just people and transvestite people are just people and society is all the better for it. Why should physical differences between genders be a reason to discriminate?

At Cite Europe, the huge shopping mall at Coquelles (french end of the Tunnel Sous la Manche) there's virtually no discrimination between lavatories and people often use either at busy times and no one bats an eyelid. In smaller towns there are only unisex lavatories and on camp site unisex showers and again no one bothers about it.

I believe that some people are just too uptight about a thing that people just don't bother about, a bit like going topless or even stark naked on some Med beaches and camp sites.

I'm with you. People are people and have a right to their individuality. But then we arrive at points of commonality such as toilets and plumbing. If the French want to share toilets, take down the dividing walls, shower together, that is their decision. Topless, naked, cool - there are places for such here too - but not in the high school.

 

[Ray]

"What will happen to the Dallas Cheerleaders? Will they be replaced by a bunch of Bruce Jenner symbiots?"

Bite your tongue!!!!

 

[rt3]

I'm with you. People are people and have a right to their individuality. But then we arrive at points of commonality such as toilets and plumbing. If the French want to share toilets, take down the dividing walls, shower together, that is their decision. Topless, naked, cool - there are places for such here too - but not in the high school.

no way man some people are just too ugly. Hmmm is that a protected category.?

Is this a why do English tourist boats have glass bottoms joke? (to see the french navy)

 

[Ruthanne]

I'm with you. People are people and have a right to their individuality. But then we arrive at points of commonality such as toilets and plumbing. If the French want to share toilets, take down the dividing walls, shower together, that is their decision. Topless, naked, cool - there are places for such here too - but not in the high school.

Well, I am referring to much older transgender people that I know.

 

[Debby]

Not shure what outside means

what I'm saying is that transgender do have have genetic changes from higher levels of certain drugs from early childhood

what I am saying is that transgender can be changed back with the knowledge that has evolved in the last 20 years about hormone therapy

what at I am saying is it may be to cruel to do that

According to the documentary I watched a few years back, transgender people's brains are actually different in structure in the region that affects sexuality. So blaming drugs....no.

And what I meant is that we all are influenced by the chemicals (hormones) to be and do the things we do, and in the case of transgender people, the hormones that their bodies produce apparently don't match the exterior shell.

 

[rt3]

you assume that testosterone produces male characterizations and estradiol female. This is 30 year old medicine or more.
men have more progesterone in them than women during menses, and likewise females have more bound test. than men. conversion of test in men to estradiol gives them the female attributes you are describing to the exterior shell. in females, the bound test. is converted to free test. which gives the secondary sex characteristics of males you call the outer shell

The set beliefs that the outer shell is male, test and female estradiol is really illustrated by the example of roid rage, or an extreme rage caused by to high levels of test. when in fact it is the female hormone that causes the rage, estradiol is a stimulant. The testosterone is converted to estradiol and causes the rage. Thats why body builders take aromatase inhibitors, and why older men if their balances are correct have smoother skin than normal middle age men. Also estradiol is cardio protective. It is also why progesterone is given as a tranquilizer. It has over 100 metabolic by products which are pharmacologically active. 2 of the pregnenolone category have the same calming effect as benzodiazepines.

What you are saying goes against the HRT doctors and clinics in the USA such as Physioage, Cenergenics etc. who see thousands of patients every day. Your saying that drugs are not to blame is ignorance.

there is no brain area that affects sexuality, sexuality is affected by chemicals that are capable of changing every cell in the body. The cells every where in the brain are affected by hormones not centers. The only structures changed are at the DNA level which starts recoding for more of either hormones output.

 

[Ray]

Well, I am referring to much older transgender people that I know.

Fine - would it really cause them great trauma to use a plumbing appropriate restroom?? I can only speak from my own perspective but when I gotta go, I gotta go and "going" is the point not making a social or political statement.

 

[tnthomas]

I never understood (and still don't) why everybody all of a sudden got so wrapped around the axle about transgender people using the "wrong" bathroom. Presumably this has been going on forever and nobody knew or cared or got all weird about it until the last couple of years. In most women's bathrooms in the US, anyway, there are separate stalls, so what difference does all this really make??? I've never in my life worried or wondered if the person in the next stall was female or not.

I'm guessing so that the haters can have another issue to rail against, and to rally the uh, "faithful" to turn out for the presidential vote. Looks like that effort was successful.

 

[rt3]

I'm guessing so that the haters can have another issue to rail against, and to rally the uh, "faithful" to turn out for the presidential vote. Looks like that effort was successful.

To answer your question. Yes you would be guessing

 

[Debby]

you assume that testosterone produces male characterizations and estradiol female. This is 30 year old medicine or more.
men have more progesterone in them than women during menses, and likewise females have more bound test. than men. conversion of test in men to estradiol gives them the female attributes you are describing to the exterior shell. in females, the bound test. is converted to free test. which gives the secondary sex characteristics of males you call the outer shell

The set beliefs that the outer shell is male, test and female estradiol is really illustrated by the example of roid rage, or an extreme rage caused by to high levels of test. when in fact it is the female hormone that causes the rage, estradiol is a stimulant. The testosterone is converted to estradiol and causes the rage. Thats why body builders take aromatase inhibitors, and why older men if their balances are correct have smoother skin than normal middle age men. Also estradiol is cardio protective. It is also why progesterone is given as a tranquilizer. It has over 100 metabolic by products which are pharmacologically active. 2 of the pregnenolone category have the same calming effect as benzodiazepines.

What you are saying goes against the HRT doctors and clinics in the USA such as Physioage, Cenergenics etc. who see thousands of patients every day. Your saying that drugs are not to blame is ignorance.

there is no brain area that affects sexuality, sexuality is affected by chemicals that are capable of changing every cell in the body. The cells every where in the brain are affected by hormones not centers. The only structures changed are at the DNA level which starts recoding for more of either hormones output.

Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females. They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006). “It’s the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised,” Guillamon says.
In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person’s brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007). “Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female,” says Guillamon

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/




If I'm not mistaken, that's about structure, not hormones.