Let's get that pipeline built!

Ralphy1

Ralphy1

Well-known Member
I have heard enough discussion about the Keystone to side with the majority that want it to go forward and you should, too...
 

I Sure DO Ralphy!! I'm excited about tar sands oil spilling into our major aquifer so a Canadian company can get the oil to China and make huge profits. Heck... who cares that it will only create 35-50 permanant jobs.. and will not impact the price of gas at the pump for Americans. In fact we may even end up paying more, but who cares!! I'm just happy to see a foreign company will benefit at the price of our environment and add to the worlds dependence of fossil fuels.
 
Sorry, but experts say there is no threat to aquifers and many more jobs than you mentioned as ongoing inspections and maintenance after it is built along with processing jobs way into the future...
 

Depends which "Experts" you are listening to. The real ones.... or FAUX news.

http://www.newsweek.com/state-depar...ne-would-only-create-35-permanent-jobs-228898

If you use the trans Alaska pipeline as a guidepost

http://www.forbes.com/sites/energys...w-many-jobs-will-be-created-by-keystone-xl/2/

Alaska expected the Trans-Alaska Pipeline to lead to the growth of chemical manufacturing and refining in the state. The Wall Street Journal concluded in September 1979 that the “capital intensive” oil industry had failed to create a significant number of permanent jobs for Alaska. After the pipeline was completed, unemployment grew, reaching 15% by June 1977. By September 1979 it had dropped to 11%, but private industry failed to expand substantially. 40% of Alaska’s workforce remained on the public payroll. This was a classic boomtown effect, in which the population of Alaska, particularly the interior city of Fairbanks, swelled in anticipation of petroleum construction jobs. Once the project was complete many thousands who had moved to the city were left unemployed. Eventually, by the mid-1980s, the pipeline project spawned additional spinoff pipelines, but they employed only a small fraction of the construction workers who had previously worked for Alyeska. Clearly, Trans-Alaska did not bring nearly as many jobs as promised.
The states through the Keystone XL Pipeline will be constructed should anticipate this boomtown effect and the potential for high unemployment to follow the pipeline’s completion. However, the potential unemployment in the wake of a boomtown may be limited, in this case, by faster construction. The lesson from Trans-Alaska however, is that long-term employment in these areas is unlikely to increase nearly as significantly as some people would like to believe.
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In addition, the price of gas will likely rise for Americans!! Because of the pipeline.. How wonderful!!

The estimates are based on the idea that the pipeline will create permanently stable oil prices which will foster overall economic growth. However, there is no indication the pipeline would contribute to oil price stabilization. In fact, other TransCanada studies predict that oil prices in the Midwest will rise because the Keystone XL Pipeline will alleviate an oversupply there. No previous pipeline, such as Trans-Alaska, has ever stabilized global oil prices. All predictions for spinoff jobs rely on factors like the price of oil, energy innovation, politics, and the overall health of the economy. These variables are impossible to forecast and make predictions such as the Perryman Group’s unreliable.
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Anyway... looks like the Senate has the 60 votes to pass the bill.. Obama will veto it. BUT none of this matters. The pipeline will not be built for years to come if ever. Indian nations are planning to stop it due to treaty violations. They don't want it on their land. AND in addition to this, major oil producers are not all that gung ho for it due to the decline in oil prices.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-10-...ulling-plug-their-projects-albertas-tar-sands

NOW... in our highly partisan environment.. the pipeline has really become a political football.. It's not all that important.. and is merely a way for the uninformed to believe they WON something...
 
Ralphy1 said:
Sorry, but experts say there is no threat to aquifers and many more jobs than you mentioned as ongoing inspections and maintenance after it is built along with processing jobs way into the future...
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I was listening to one of those 'experts' yesterday in the car and one thing he failed to mention/admit was that the heavy tar that he liked to suggest would just lay there on the surface and not impact the Ogallala Aquifer, was that it isn't going through that pipeline as a heavy tar-like substance. It has to be thinned with chemicals to make it run. Since some parts of that Aquifer are close to the surface, and considering the numerous pipeline breaks that have occurred, it seems to me that the thinned tar/chemical combo could very well impact that aquifer.

And to those who consider the inspections to be a total safeguard, there is the issue of this: [h=1]3 Billion Gallons Of Fracking Wastewater Pumped Into Clean California Aquifiers: "Errors Were Made" State Admits[/h]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-17/3-billion-gallons-fracking-wastewater-pumped-clean-california-aquifiers-errors-were-

Accidents happen. And so does stupidity (errors were made?) Right, not a problem as long as it isn't running across MY drinking water.



What he also kept the conversation away from was the fact that environmentalists are fearful of is that ease of moving the stuff will encourage even more investment (Koch brothers would rub their hands with glee over that) which will further encourage an expansion of the tar sands production which will further impact the environment, including both air and water and particularly for the First Nations folks who live in that vicinity.
 
I've read that the Koch bros. own the refineries in South Texas where this oil is going, if this pipeline is completed their net worth will double from 100 billion to 200 billion...... ...that should tell anyone where their misinformation is coming from.
 
Jackie22 said:
I've read that the Koch bros. own the refineries in South Texas where this oil is going, if this pipeline is completed their net worth will double from 100 billion to 200 billion...... ...that should tell anyone where their misinformation is coming from.
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And this is only a small part of the political payback the Koch's will extract for buying the midterms.
 
The Koch brothers are also working on buying up 220,000 acres of Alberta's tar sands. Combine that with their ownership of Texas refineries and their proclivity for influencing(manipulating) elections, we should all be concerned as to whether or not our future descendants will have a planet to live on. Apparently the Koch brothers don't care. Short term gain (haven't those greedy pigs got enough?) long term pain. http://kochcash.org/koch-brothers-cashing-in-220000-acres-of-tar-sands-holdings/
 
I would love to know for sure which or how many of the Supreme Court Justices were bought and paid for by the Koch Brothers. My guess would be Thomas for sure.. and Scalia... and maybe even Roberts. Thomas and Scalia have long been associated with the Koch Brothers. AND of course the Citizens United Ruling which as enabled the Kochs to buy our democracy. If EVER impeachment should be considered it would be against these justices. AND to think.. they have a lifetime appointment.

http://www.politicususa.com/2013/11...icial-ethics-headlining-wing-fundraisers.html

For three years, at least, there have been nagging questions about Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia’s close ties to right-wing organizations and their funding mechanism the Koch Brothers, but without a rigorous code of ethics in place there was little chance they would be held to account for, or forced to stop, using their positions on the Court to promote the Koch brothers’ right-wing agenda. Two days ago, Clarence Thomas was at it again when he appeared at a Federalist Society “fundraiser” as a featured speaker that two other High Court justices, Antonin Scalia and Samuel Alito also attended. It is a violation of Canon 4C of the Code of Conduct for U.S. Judges who are forbidden from being “a speaker, a guest of honor, or featured on the program” of a fundraising event, but because Thomas, a federal judge, sits on the nation’s highest court he is exempt, apparently, from adhering to any code of conduct. Just when it appeared no-one in a position of authority would take action and demand Thomas be held accountable for his recurring ethical violations, a lone elected representative once again spoke out for the American people.
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Yet... in spite of this very obvious subversion of our democracy by a handful of Billionaires.. Americans continue to vote Republican. This in and of itself should be classified as the eighth wonder of the world. Do they REALLY want to live in the world the Kochs would create? One has to wonder what they THINK is in it for them.. NOTHING if the Kochs get their way. The problem is many Americans are to darn lazy to find out what is really going on. They depend on the 30 second sound bites paid for by the Kochs for their political opinions. (or Fox.. or Limbaugh) Very sad indeed.
 
This political football is long from scoring a touchdown. The White House has announced, rightfully so, that the POTUS will veto the bill coming out of Congress. At that time, it will need the 60 votes again to override the veto. I don't believe the same 60 who voted for the bill's passing will vote for the override. That remains to be seen.

The main issue holding up the bill is the liability to our environment. BP pushed hard to keep from funding clean up after the big oil dump in the Gulf. They were forced to pay up and did. Now, they say they think they paid too much and are litigating trying to get money back. If the Koch's would escrow $1 billon of their over $100 billion as a clean-up reserve, I believe this would fly through without hesitation. Part of the issue is the significant political tie the Kochs have with Congress. If there is an environmental disaster, current elected officials would be hard pressed to hold the Kochs responsible. The environment would suffer significant negative effects while the responsibility was legislated and litigated. Put up or shut up!!!

The pipeline will have zero impact on U.S. dependence on foreign oil, U.S. unempoyment figures, and U.S. fuel prices. The pipeline will allow multi-billionaires to become multi-multi-billionaires. To date, large oil spill disasters have been at sea and there has been a certain amount of "solution by dilution". When millions of gallons or crude oil spills out on farmland and migrates into our drinking water sources, it could tank the entire Country's economy. The risk is not worth the reward. Common sense, however, will not play into the decision. Politics will.
 
Irregardless of what a persons "political" arguments might be, either for, or against this pipeline, the fact is that this Canadian oil IS being sent to the Texas refineries....Today. However, it is being moved by rail, instead of a much safer pipeline. The original plans called for the pipeline to cross the Ogallala Aquifer in Nebraska, but those plans have been changed to move the pipeline North and East of the aquifer....so in the unlikely event of a major leak, the groundwater would not be impacted.
The processing of this oil will have little or no impact on US gas prices. It has been intended, all along, to be processed in our Texas refineries which have excess capacity, and the products sold to foreign markets, at a profit for both the US and Canadian companies involved....and hopefully will generate some tax revenues that will help bring down our out of control National Debt.
 
Grumpy Ol' Man said:
This political football is long from scoring a touchdown. The White House has announced, rightfully so, that the POTUS will veto the bill coming out of Congress. At that time, it will need the 60 votes again to override the veto. I don't believe the same 60 who voted for the bill's passing will vote for the override. That remains to be seen.

The main issue holding up the bill is the liability to our environment. BP pushed hard to keep from funding clean up after the big oil dump in the Gulf. They were forced to pay up and did. Now, they say they think they paid too much and are litigating trying to get money back. If the Koch's would escrow $1 billon of their over $100 billion as a clean-up reserve, I believe this would fly through without hesitation. Part of the issue is the significant political tie the Kochs have with Congress. If there is an environmental disaster, current elected officials would be hard pressed to hold the Kochs responsible. The environment would suffer significant negative effects while the responsibility was legislated and litigated. Put up or shut up!!!

The pipeline will have zero impact on U.S. dependence on foreign oil, U.S. unempoyment figures, and U.S. fuel prices. The pipeline will allow multi-billionaires to become multi-multi-billionaires. To date, large oil spill disasters have been at sea and there has been a certain amount of "solution by dilution". When millions of gallons or crude oil spills out on farmland and migrates into our drinking water sources, it could tank the entire Country's economy. The risk is not worth the reward. Common sense, however, will not play into the decision. Politics will.
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Great post GOM..... one thing though... it would require 2/3rds of the House and the Senate to over-ride a veto. That probably could happen in the house, but that would mean 67 votes in the Senate. That would be impossible on this issue. So the Pipeline will not be approved.
 
Don M. said:
I...... US and Canadian companies involved....and hopefully will generate some tax revenues that will help bring down our out of control National Debt.
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Except those corporations have excellent tax lawyers and will see to it that as little as possible will flow into government coffers anywhere so my guess is that you citizens will still own your debt.
 
Twixie said:
Well do something about it...instead of moaning..:)
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That is exactly what environmentalists have been working on for years! But being in England you might not be as aware of the protracted and difficult fight that has been going on as some try to 'do something about it'. Nobody is 'moaning' about it, they are fighting for the environment.

Keep in mind Twixie, that if the IPCC is correct that it is imperative that we cease using oil by 2100, and if the pipeline goes through and the tar sands are expanded as a result of the increased ease of getting the stuff moved out to refineries, the damage to the overall environment will affect your beloved country just as much as anybody else's. We are one small planet and all are ultimately affected by everything that goes occurs on it.
 
Debby said:
Except those corporations have excellent tax lawyers and will see to it that as little as possible will flow into government coffers anywhere so my guess is that you citizens will still own your debt.
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Not only does Big Oil pay very little in taxes... we also give them subsidies. This is the REAL welfare... it's Corporate welfare. While we cut food stamps and Social Security.

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/02/07/oil-subsidies-natural-gas-subsidies/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/...ich-it-will-pay-a-13-percent-tax-rate-if-that
 
QuickSilver said:
Great post GOM..... one thing though... it would require 2/3rds of the House and the Senate to over-ride a veto. That probably could happen in the house, but that would mean 67 votes in the Senate. That would be impossible on this issue. So the Pipeline will not be approved.
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You are most certainly correct!! I forgot about the 2/3 majority. That should allow a veto to stand.
 
Twixie said:
Well do something about it...instead of moaning..:)
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That is what happens with most political non-issues made into issues for politcal gain. "Mountains out of molehills!" When your political party is not in power, you whine and moan about the other side. Then the pendelum swings. Whining is not a respector of Party.
 

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