So what are our tree hugging buddies going to do about this. In Pennsylvania a huge deposit of lithium, critical to solar panels and EV batteries was identified while processing waste water from fracking. Now this should be interesting. Would you rather boost the Chinese economy buying their lithium or establish a reasonable compromise in philosophy? That being to get the lithium at home along with the parallel benefit of increased natural gas that generates electricity for that all important EV or even can be sold boosting the economy. I'm ready to buy a ticket to watch this play out.
Lithium found in fracking waste water
- Thread starter TennVet
- Start date
Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Alberta, Canada has run it's economy for decades on oil and gas and are now looking at turning the lithium in the settling ponds from fracking, into one of their next resources. And that makes us tree huggers/environment lovers very happy.
We're also hoping that one day, our provincial government starts making the oil and gas companies clean up their abandoned gas wells that are leaking methane into the air. Methane is 80x worse for the environment than carbon so there's an urgency to the problem. Even though those companies signed agreements that said 'they would clean up those wells when done', they just walk away and are leaving it to the taxpayers to seal the wells and rehabilitate that land. Meanwhile we give them $billions in subsidies.
At least if they can take lithium out of the mess the O & G industry has made, to power electric cars and other rechargeable batteries, something good has come out of what they leave behind for tax payers to deal with.
We're also hoping that one day, our provincial government starts making the oil and gas companies clean up their abandoned gas wells that are leaking methane into the air. Methane is 80x worse for the environment than carbon so there's an urgency to the problem. Even though those companies signed agreements that said 'they would clean up those wells when done', they just walk away and are leaving it to the taxpayers to seal the wells and rehabilitate that land. Meanwhile we give them $billions in subsidies.
At least if they can take lithium out of the mess the O & G industry has made, to power electric cars and other rechargeable batteries, something good has come out of what they leave behind for tax payers to deal with.
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Roadwarrior
Member
I'm willing to let them have it, What to Know About Lithium Toxicity
stretch5881
Member
- Location
- Wisconsin
It's a very interesting subject. Environmentalists want EVs. EVs need lithium for the batteries. Lithium need to be mined. But they don't want the land in their country to be disturbed and will fight tooth and nail in the courts to keep it from happening. They don't want mining in Thacker Pass, Nevada because a tiny snail may not be found elsewhere. But it's ok to whack a few rain forests in South America to mine there.
This story never ends.
This story never ends.
That is a good find, as long as, they keep making Lithium batteries,
there have been so many fires and exploding lithium batteries, that
a more stable type of battery is being sought, whoever finds one is
made for life and lithium will pass into the history books, I am afraid.
Mike.
there have been so many fires and exploding lithium batteries, that
a more stable type of battery is being sought, whoever finds one is
made for life and lithium will pass into the history books, I am afraid.
Mike.
fuzzybuddy
SF VIP
- Location
- The Sticks, Northeast PA.
Why do I get the feeling that if there were no uses for lithium, the frackers would have never "found" it in their waste water?
papa tiger
Well-known Member
Sure, everything we do screws something else up. Haha
There are tons of Quotes around a subject, "Change is a good thing"
There are tons of Quotes around a subject, "Change is a good thing"
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jpstrap
Member
Isn't this edging into a political discussion?
jpstrap
Member
How does the potential output of these sources compare to what is in the Tonopah Flats source? Is that info available?
papa tiger
Well-known Member
One may deduct that the sources of lithium lead to different applications.
Chemical Identity:
In both cases, lithium ions (Li⁺) are the same chemical species. However, the specific minerals or compounds they are associated with differ.
In brines, lithium is typically present as lithium chloride (LiCl), while in rock ores, it occurs as minerals like spodumene (LiAlSi₂O₆).
Regardless of the source, once extracted, lithium ions can be used for various applications, including batteries and clean energy technologies.
In summary, while the form and extraction methods vary, the fundamental lithium ions are consistent across both briny water and mined rock ores2.
Chemical Identity:
In both cases, lithium ions (Li⁺) are the same chemical species. However, the specific minerals or compounds they are associated with differ.
In brines, lithium is typically present as lithium chloride (LiCl), while in rock ores, it occurs as minerals like spodumene (LiAlSi₂O₆).
Regardless of the source, once extracted, lithium ions can be used for various applications, including batteries and clean energy technologies.
In summary, while the form and extraction methods vary, the fundamental lithium ions are consistent across both briny water and mined rock ores2.
jpstrap
Member
Isn't lithium carbonate the usual measurement of how potentially rich a deposit will prove to be?One may deduct that the sources of lithium lead to different applications.
Chemical Identity:
In both cases, lithium ions (Li⁺) are the same chemical species. However, the specific minerals or compounds they are associated with differ.
In brines, lithium is typically present as lithium chloride (LiCl), while in rock ores, it occurs as minerals like spodumene (LiAlSi₂O₆).
Regardless of the source, once extracted, lithium ions can be used for various applications, including batteries and clean energy technologies.
In summary, while the form and extraction methods vary, the fundamental lithium ions are consistent across both briny water and mined rock ores2.
Their wanter just doesn't quit. If it came bubbling up from the ground they would want to leave it there.
when you consider that EV's and solar power only go forward now because of tax subsidies it begins to look like double dipping. The government here pledged to build 500,000 charging stations, and in three years have only completed about a dozen. Ford is already bailing out of EV building because it is decimating their profits.
jpstrap
Member
I have done some research about lithium over the past few years as an amateur investor. I have noticed many articles praising the growth potential of the lithium industry worldwide, due to increasing demand. But when I look at my favorite ETF, LIT, I see a weak and disheartening graph. As I write this, LIT is below the 200, below the 50 and below the 20 day MA, and headed even lower. This is a global index fund, which reflects the bulk of global investing in this area. I am a bit leary about this. I am going to hold and buy the dips, but am a bit nervous. Any input on the discrepancy?
jpstrap
Member
I am afraid I agree with you. There are a few companies in The R&D stages working on substitutes for lithium batteries. But, Musk has huge investments in lithium, so he must know something we do not.
stretch5881
Member
- Location
- Wisconsin
Even though GM has invested into Lithium America's Thacker Pass project, they also pulled the plug on their EV production.
papa tiger
Well-known Member
I have found a great deal of Lithium hand tool 20 volt batteries fail to charge in the first year of ownership.
Now I am just a small hand tool guy with possibly 15 20 volt batteries but when approx.. 4 of them fail early
it warns me of the poor design of the Charging module in them. Yep I shied away from Dewalt Batteries right
away!
It still continues to happen with off brands Batteries that replace DeWalt tools. Most likely the same Battery
Just different with Red and Black colors. You get a couple of uses, charges and then totally dead. All 3 brands.
At least they didn't start a fire here. It may be gradual use till they cut out wrecks the charging module?
2 of them quit with the use of a DeWalt Contractor FM Dewalt Radio.
Uh huh I wait for EV vehicles to grow up. At least 10 years from now is a thought I have.
Now I am just a small hand tool guy with possibly 15 20 volt batteries but when approx.. 4 of them fail early
it warns me of the poor design of the Charging module in them. Yep I shied away from Dewalt Batteries right
away!
It still continues to happen with off brands Batteries that replace DeWalt tools. Most likely the same Battery
Just different with Red and Black colors. You get a couple of uses, charges and then totally dead. All 3 brands.
At least they didn't start a fire here. It may be gradual use till they cut out wrecks the charging module?
2 of them quit with the use of a DeWalt Contractor FM Dewalt Radio.
Uh huh I wait for EV vehicles to grow up. At least 10 years from now is a thought I have.
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papa tiger
Well-known Member
The Biggest mistake one who is not an expert makes is they the experts the other guy doesn't know what he is doing.
Doesn't the dumb Afak know the consequences of what he the expert is doing and most certainly he cares less.?
What's wrong with it all. Almighty Profits to be made thru trickery.
But most likely what is slowing stuff down is Voltage Charging capacity at Fast Charger and future Location Sic!
Doesn't the dumb Afak know the consequences of what he the expert is doing and most certainly he cares less.?
What's wrong with it all. Almighty Profits to be made thru trickery.
But most likely what is slowing stuff down is Voltage Charging capacity at Fast Charger and future Location Sic!
Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Like the oil and gas industry isn't double and triple dipping into our pockets. I don't know what it's like where you are, but here, the O&G industry gets $billions in subsidies from both our provincial and our federal government. On top of that our provincial government is forking over $200 million to O&G to PAY THEM TO clean up their abandoned gas wells, plus our federal government has earmarked $1.7 billion to clean up their abandoned wells. That in spite of their initial commitments to clean up their wells when they're done with them.
Further, our provincial government banned this provinces two major cities from upgrading their building regulations that would have required improved insulation and windows and heating sources to save on housing emissions, in order to protect the bottom line of the gas industry. No thought to the average homeowner who will be shoulder the rising cost of the energy they have to use to stay warm/cool in the houses they buy. Just gotta protect a toxic industries bottom line.
The taxpayer has also funded $34 billion to make another pipeline to take the product to our sensitive and beautiful coast which is the home of the Southern resident orca's who live between BC and Oregon. That in spite of the BC province not wanting the pipeline to cross our territory or endanger our coast line. We were forced to accommodate it.
And for the sake of PR, when Imperial Oil had a major leak from one of their holding ponds up north which spilled into waterways and the water table, the people living in the region weren't notified for 9 months. What's more, our federal and provincial government are putting $billions into carbon capture (which is inefficient and completely not cost effective and I can give you a link to an article that explains that statement), which the provincial government is planning on using to force the last 'drop' of gas out of orphaned, almost depleted wells which only means more emissions and no carbon captured and stored.
So when you talk about double dipping regarding EV's, that's completely ignoring the cost and cheating and taking advantage by the O&G industry that is by the way, making $billions off the tax payer before anyone even puts gas in their tank.
As for your EV chargers, your government thus far has installed about 180,000 (not 12). And Ford is not leaving the EV market by any means.
From Ford's own website:
- Ford continues to invest in a broad set of EV programs as it works to build a full EV line-up. In parallel, Ford is expanding its hybrid electric vehicle offerings. By the end of the decade, the company expects to offer hybrid powertrains across its entire Ford Blue lineup in North America
Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
I think this is an article that all the EV detractors should be reading.
From the link:
............Although EV fires receive a lot of attention in the media, research shows they are no more likely to catch fire than ICE cars. A study by the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in 2017 concluded that "the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
Special safety systems prevent the risk of fire and electric shock. For example, in a crash the electricity flow from the battery is terminated immediately. Furthermore, the battery is installed in a large, crash-proof block in the underbody, which protects it from deformation. Tests conducted by DEKRA, the European vehicle inspection company, have repeatedly shown that the risk of fire is far lower with an EV than with internal combustion engine (ICE) cars.
Myth #7 - Batteries are dangerous because they can explode.
Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
I think GM is pausing their EV pick up truck production in Michigan but continues to build the trucks at their Detroit facility. They are looking to expand their production sometime in 2025.
And we have a Chevy Bolt EUV and it is a great little car. Nice looking, feels roomy and good to drive. We love it. Too bad they discontinued that model because it's perfect for seniors. It's a little car but I can even pick up 8 foot lengths of wood in it at the lumber yard.
https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/auto-giant-pulls-the-plug-on-this-new-vehicle-line
AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
Agreed. Current lithium battery tech leaves much to be desired.