Might Germany Leave the EU?

This is about the real concerns of a potentially very hot war on their doorstep along with economic, and resource, and social woes at the same time. All clearly tied to unfortunate past policy decisions both domestically and by foreign "partners."

It's only natural the people would seek to change the course of government policy by shifting their support back to more centrist politicians. This is happening in many places around the world, in part because the global pushback against censorship emboldens more citizens to stand up and be counted.
 

Debrah N. said:
You're right, I watched a news video where the interviewee mentioned that they were anxious to join because they were afraid of Russia. But my first question was, how are the weaker EU nations sucking the more successful ones dry? Is the EU a body similar to a country like Canada for example, where the less successful provinces are in part, supported by the more successful?
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Yes it is like Canada and it's transfer policy. In a more centralized way, but the richer ones pay for the poorer.
 
Here's a piece of useless information, when a pendulum is in the middle it has reached peak velocity.
 

George1959 said:
You are right with the assunption that the pendulum swings both ways. But one reason might be that the side which rules, only takes care for their voters and not for all people. They overact.

It is right also, that a conservative party in every country may prefer traditional values (marriage only between man and woman, many children, abortion only within strict limiits - in Germany it's three months, no assisted dying, strict immigration law and so on).

But people who vote should look upon all aspects. In some aspects I tend to the left side, in some to the conservative (or right side, as you may call it).

The party whose claims are more important or has the majority of claims I concur with, gets my vote.

Most people even don't read the agenda of several parties before they vote, I do it and watch several discussions in our parliament.
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I think there's a problem with your analysis. It ignores that 'the right' in any region, is so obviously striving to take away rights and protections of specific groups, whether it be the right to reproductive freedoms or even the right to exist in a region or to live openly and in safety. On the other hand, the left seeks to widen the protections of both rights and freedoms and safety (by including trans people for example as in Canada).

And the right invariably rebels against those protections with protests, riots, censorship or changes in laws. It's like Dr. Norman Finkelstein being banned from Israel and Yanis Karoufakis being banned from Germany due to their support of Palestinians. Censoring their words by banning them from entering countries. Or the censorship of pulling books out of libraries.....or changing laws so specific groups of people can't get the medical treatment that they need. I don't recall hearing of too many left leaning groups or governments who espouse those sorts of actions.

It boils down to the question of what kind of society we want to live in, i.e. one that strives to be good for the widest number of people or one that wants to restrict and close to surface differences. Historically we have one perfect example of how that worked out.
 
So... hunker down in bunkers as war rages, with no rights to speech and high taxation, shivering in the dark with little food or clean water. Meanwhile violent mobs run loose on the surface as they invade en masse from distant lands.
 
dilettante said:
So... hunker down in bunkers as war rages, with no rights to speech and high taxation, shivering in the dark with little food or clean water. Meanwhile violent mobs run loose on the surface as they invade en masse from distant lands.
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I don't recall any country except the authoritarian type countries like Russia, where the rights to freedom of speech have been taken away and if you're afraid of not having food or clean water, then maybe it's time to get on board the effort to protect our environment rather than supporting governments that have no intention of that but fully intend to get rid of regulations that do make the effort. And if we continue to ignore our responsibility to the planet, and people from regions stricken by the climate crisis that our polluting ways have caused, how many will be moving across the planet in their search for food and water? What do you think the mobs will be like when the planet is buckling under our onslaught?
 
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Then you are missing the point. Authoritarianism has become the backbone of governments in the UK, EU at large, and Canada. That is exactly where speech is being criminalized.

This is why people are making changes, to pull things back to the center.
 
Nobody in Canada is being jailed for speech and we aren't banning books or artists or comedians or spokespeople for disenfranchised groups. But we are widening the inclusions like for trans people and we have a government that is endeavouring to make (slight moves) towards protecting the environment.

But it's also a truth that it's easier to rile up people when times are tough (as they have been all over the world due to the pandemic) by capitalizing on the blame game and three word slogans that far too many just accept as gospel without looking at the facts behind them.

And now here's where I'm going to back out of this conversation. Said my piece and now it's time I walked away. Have a good day dilettante.
 
Then there was the trucker protest over-reaction that froze and seized bank accounts, insane things like demanding that Jordan Peterson be "re-educated" or he'd lose his professional license. And those are just two high-profile instances.

But at least a lot of Canadians have begun to stand up, speak out, and push for an overdue change in government. Good luck to them.
 
Harry Le Hermit said:
In Canada, people will soon be arrested and fined without committing any crime
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Can't comment because your link is behind a paywall and I'm not going to subscribe just because. But the little bit that shows mentions trans people, and I've read Bill C 16, but it doesn't mention speech (i.e. pronouns) at all. It simply adds trans people to the list of identifiable groups like people of colour, First Nation people, women, gays, lesbians, marital status, religion, etc, and it says that you can't discriminate against them in the areas of housing, service, lifestyle, or employment. (😃I know, I know, I said I was finished but I couldn't resist)
 
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Canada’s Liberal Prime Minister Justin Trudeau recently identified his country’s greatest threat: people freely speaking their mind. A new online harms law, if passed, could potentially enable judges to put people under house arrest if they’re viewed as likely to commit a hate offence.

You read this right. No actual crime would be required for this type of punishment.

Sadly, it’s part-and-parcel with the authoritarian response to free speech in Trudeau’s Canada. Streaming services were mandated last year to register with the government for regulatory controls, and appeals to exempt user generated content were rejected. Prominent author/psychologist Jordan Peterson was told he must go through social media training or lose his medical licence. And when the 2022 Freedom Convoy protested the totalitarian Covid restrictions, the Trudeau Liberals invoked the draconian Emergencies Act to break up the protests and freeze bank accounts.

Here’s the odd thing about this. There was a time, not too long ago, when Canada was regarded as a strong defender of free speech. Canadians viewed it as a cherished principle that protected democratic institutions, defended individual rights and freedoms, promoted intellectual discourse and encouraged free and open debate without fear of retribution or repercussion.

Few Canadians would have disagreed with former Prime Minister John Diefenbaker’s impassioned defence of free speech, either. “I am Canadian, a free Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship God in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, free to choose those who govern my country,” he said in Canada’s House of Commons on July 1, 1960. “This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.”

That was then, and this is now.

Trudeau obtusely claims to support a Canadian’s right to free speech. In reality, he’s made speech in Canada less free than in any other previous time in its history. The focus under Trudeau’s leadership has almost exclusively shifted to so-called “hate speech” laws.
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dilettante said:
Then there was the trucker protest over-reaction that froze and seized bank accounts, insane things like demanding that Jordan Peterson be "re-educated" or he'd lose his professional license. And those are just two high-profile instances.

But at least a lot of Canadians have begun to stand up, speak out, and push for an overdue change in government. Good luck.
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Peterson got reprimanded by the body that proscribes the rules and regulations for his industry, not the government. So you can't include him at all. He was rude and obnoxious and instead of following the guidelines of his chosen career (which amounts to 'do no harm'), he actively fomented hostility against people he didn't approve of, including trans people and over weight people with no regard for the hurt and anxiety that a man of his 'stature' might do to them.

As for the bank accounts, yep, can't deny it happened that about 280 were frozen, but for the most part it was temporary and with the goal of stopping the flow of funds to people who were engaged in potentially illegal activities. Let's not forget, those people cost the country about $6 billion dollars in economic activity, made the lives of residents and business people miserable and they were warned to leave numerous times and advised what the outcome would be if they didn't. They weren't innocent bystanders by any means and chose to challenge the government and two of the organizers are facing potentially, 10 years in jail each for their part.

What's really ridiculous about all that is that the government was already engaged in the process of beginning to roll back the very mandates they were getting worked up about.

Isn't it interesting how many 'law and order' proponents are all for violating regulations, warnings and the well being of others, but have tantrums when they are asked to protect others well being or abide by regulations designed to protect others or the economic well being of the country?

By the way, any links available (that aren't behind the Telegraph pay wall) on your opening salvo in that last comment about what you say Trudeau said? I did a search on the phrase from your comment and couldn't find anything.
 
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I think your reference has to do with spinning the story about Bill C10 which started out as a bill to bring streaming outlets like Netflix, under the purview of the CRTC (Canadian Radio and Telecommunications Commission) which would require them to abide by the same rules that traditional broadcasters are required to follow in Canada. Things like providing accessible programming for the disabled, promote diversity as represented by Canadian society, support indigenous cultures and to make the CRTC more flexible in promoting the above. And there are specific cut outs for the content generated by users (the average citizen who's sharing opinions, ideas and their photos). And it did reinforce rules about hate speech not being allowed.

In Canada, our hate speech laws generally seem to run along the lines of words that advocate genocide, publicly incite hatred and wilfully promote hatred against an identifiable group and especially if they incite violence against protected groups. Hate speech can include misogyny, homophobia, antisemitism, islamophobia, Holocaust denial, etc. Maybe in the USA, you can get away with that kind of utterance, but not so much in Canada.
 
Debrah N. said:
By the way, any links available (that aren't behind the Telegraph pay wall) on your opening salvo in that last comment about what you say Trudeau said? I did a search on the phrase from your comment and couldn't find anything.
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It isn't mine, it came from that linked article. The second time I visited it the whole page was available.
 
dilettante said:
It isn't mine, it came from that linked article. The second time I visited it the whole page was available.
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I tried several times but each time, the paywall came up. I did look up the guy who wrote the article and he was the speech writer for our last PM, Stephen Harper who went out under a cloud of disfavour, in particular because his bunch of acolytes often played fast and loose with the truth. One of his guys went to jail for cheating on his campaign financing, and another group were at the heart of a housing funding scandal that really set the stage for Harper's ouster.

At this point, I'm pretty sure the 'fabrication' about what Trudeau supposedly said, had to do with Bill C10 as I explained in my previous comment. Anyway, it's been interesting and a great mental exercise for me, but I have a load of dishes to do and then some Christmas presents to wrap for my grandsons, so have a nice evening dilettante.
 
Twostep said:
Go and do your dishes.
France is in an uproar.
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While I haven't kept up with what's going on in France so can't legitimately comment, since you're so interested, perhaps now is the time for you to get busy and do some due diligence on the issue. My guess is there's a lot more going on then you realize.

The one thing I do know is that France has recently joined the BRICS nations and that spells big changes ahead for the world financial system as it now stands.
 
dilettante said:
So... hunker down in bunkers as war rages, with no rights to speech and high taxation, shivering in the dark with little food or clean water. Meanwhile violent mobs run loose on the surface as they invade en masse from distant lands.
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That's not going to happen. It's just fearmongering.
 
Debrah N. said:
At this point, I'm pretty sure the 'fabrication' about what Trudeau supposedly said, had to do with Bill C10 as I explained in my previous comment. Anyway, it's been interesting and a great mental exercise for me, but I have a load of dishes to do and then some Christmas presents to wrap for my grandsons, so have a nice evening dilettante.
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I find it amazing that people will go to effort to discredit messengers. It seems to be a gender-based thing to cower against diverse opinion and cling to their chosen authority.

It makes discussion impractical. I've been watching psychologists in conversations discussing the damage this causes in our rapidly declining schools from the bottom to graduate university programs.

No value in posting links, people here already reject information out of hand if it might counter their cherished beliefs about reality. Instead they want us to post summaries and opinions since those are easier to attack, sniff at, and discount.
 
dilettante said:
I find it amazing that people will go to effort to discredit messengers. It seems to be a gender-based thing to cower against diverse opinion and cling to their chosen authority.

It makes discussion impractical. I've been watching psychologists in conversations discussing the damage this causes in our rapidly declining schools from the bottom to graduate university programs.

No value in posting links, people here already reject information out of hand if it might counter their cherished beliefs about reality. Instead they want us to post summaries and opinions since those are easier to attack, sniff at, and discount.
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There are a lot of echo chambers, which is why it is really good to step outside and get a breath of fresh air. Not against sampling the various echo chambers, but limiting the time within each, and getting fresh air between, is a necessity, imho.
 
Germany is the economic powerhouse of Europe. Leaving the EU would be a huge mistake, I would think. What would they do? Buddy up with Russia for economic reasons? Maybe Belarus would buy a few more cars from them.

From what I have read most of Germany's problems are self inflicted. Getting rid of their nuclear power plants without having a reliable source of affordable power was one mistake. Depending on Russia for energy was another. Also, they let the Chinese bamboozle them into giving up their fancy tech skills, for a few years worth of profits. Then there is VW rigging its cars to fake the pollution tests.
 

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