MIT Study Talks About Vaccine/Mask Hesitancy

JonDouglas said:
“It shows that characterizing antimask groups as data-illiterate or not engaging with the data, is empirically false.”
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That's true. Those criticizing the vaccines, masks, and social distancing are going to great, and "almost" believable lengths to support their positions. They are searching the Internet for Any data that downplays the severity of this virus, and the ineffectiveness of the masks and vaccines....then spreading that information as much as possible.

There is plenty of proof that the old saying attributed to P.T. Barnum, is as true today, as it was in the 1800's.
 
Don M. said:
That's true. Those criticizing the vaccines, masks, and social distancing are going to great, and "almost" believable lengths to support their positions. They are searching the Internet for Any data that downplays the severity of this virus, and the ineffectiveness of the masks and vaccines....then spreading that information as much as possible.

There is plenty of proof that the old saying attributed to P.T. Barnum, is as true today, as it was in the 1800's.
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Strongly agree, Don. I just don't get why anyone with any common sense would not welcome a vaccine that could save their life in the face of all the suffering and death we have experienced from this virus. It's like refusing to pull a parachute's rip cord because somebody somewhere told you it might fail. Maybe it might, but not to try it will end up much worse.
 

This really is a good article and study, thanks Jon!

I have struggled to figure out why many of my friends and relatives are so anti mask and anti vaccine. To me that just seems irrational. I know these people, and a lot of them are pretty smart and make good judgments on many other things. One of my best and oldest friends falls into this category. He and I have discussed this at length and I still don't understand why he thinks as he does about it. This helps me better understand.

I wish we could more rationally discuss this whole thing based on facts and science and not politics and emotion. Understanding where people are coming from at least helps.
 
Alligatorob said:
This really is a good article and study, thanks Jon!

I have struggled to figure out why many of my friends and relatives are so anti mask and anti vaccine. To me that just seems irrational. I know these people, and a lot of them are pretty smart and make good judgments on many other things. One of my best and oldest friends falls into this category. He and I have discussed this at length and I still don't understand why he thinks as he does about it. This helps me better understand.

I wish we could more rationally discuss this whole thing based on facts and science and not politics and emotion. Understanding where people are coming from at least helps.
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I think the article I posted suggested a good number of pro and con discussions are exactly what you're wanting - rational and informed. It is just when the issue starts to polarize that it goes bad. As with many such things, the truth is somewhere in the middle (e.g. vaccinations are neither a silver bullet salvation that everyone should take nor the devil incarnate that everyone should avoid).
 
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JonDouglas said:
As with many such things, the truth is somewhere in the middle (e.g. vaccinations are neither a silver bullet salvation that everyone should take nor the devil incarnate that everyone should avoid).
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I think that is right. Neither vaccination nor masks are silver bullets, but both reduce risk and may possibly accelerate the time to herd immunity ending things. I think both likely save lives. I find the mask issue most perplexing, there are really no side effects of mask wearing, other than the irritation of having to do it. Importantly it has no impact on the economy, much better than shutting things down... I don't like wearing one, but I have done, not so much now that I am vaccinated and no one else here wears one. It seems to me that irritation is minor inconvenience compared to the possible value. I know the vaccines are a bit more complex an issue, but it really looks to me like the benefits far out weigh the risks.
 
Thinking about the MIT study can raise some interesting questions. Thinking that questions, not pedagogy, are the steps to more effective communications, here's some that sort of jump out of all this.
  • If a vaccine doesn't completely block or eradicate the infection, will the virus mutate to evade the immune response created?
  • Similar to the way overuse of antibiotics have led to more resistant bacteria, will overuse of vaccines lead viruses to mutate into more virulent and dangerous variants?
  • Since covid is transmitted as an aerosol and not droplets, why suggest people wear masks that don't block aerosols?
  • Does the unvaccinated person's body influence the virus to mutate?
  • What triggers virus variants and mutations?
  • How much different ate the variants from the original and why?
  • Why are covid numbers approaching 2020 levels when nearly 50% of the population has been vaccinated (or are numbers wrong)?
The answers to these will out in time, noting that mRNA vaccines are still in the discovery phase.
 
I have an old high school buddy I have met up with on many occasions....I had thought highly of him before even though he has done some things not logical in the past. He has always read a lot of garbage off the internet and takes most of it as gospel. Now he refuses to wear a mask saying it makes him uncomfortable. sheesh I mean get a life....
 
Though there's certainly overlap with anti-mask, anti-vaccine, not all of us fall into that category. I hope to goodness that five years from now, we know that there are no long-term side effects from the mRNA vaccines and that they keep Covid-19 as well as new coronaviruses (because there most certainly will be new ones) infections mild. I've share why I'm holding off getting it due to my physician's advice specific to my autoimmune diseases. But ...I do think that properly worn masks decrease our viral load exposure ...and while obviously not a 100% protection, I do still wear my mask.
 
JonDouglas said:
MIT Study: When more Covid-19 data doesn’t equal more understanding. Be sure not to miss this tidbit:

“It’s a very striking finding,” says Lee. “It shows that characterizing antimask groups as data-illiterate or not engaging with the data, is empirically false.”​
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I agree with that quote. Lots of people have thought it through and come to the conclusion that the vaccine is not for them. I don't agree with that conclusion. And, as Covid continues its march through the approximately 30 to 40 % of people who are not vaccinated, I see more and more who are changing their minds. Knowing one or two close friends or relative suffering greatly from Covid tends to focus a person on the personal and greater good.

Bashing people who have mistaken beliefs or valid questions about the Covid vaccine is about as useful as hitting a person over the head with a heavy Bible and expecting them to become a Christian.
 
JonDouglas said:
Thinking about the MIT study can raise some interesting questions. Thinking that questions, not pedagogy, are the steps to more effective communications, here's some that sort of jump out of all this.
  • If a vaccine doesn't completely block or eradicate the infection, will the virus mutate to evade the immune response created?
  • Similar to the way overuse of antibiotics have led to more resistant bacteria, will overuse of vaccines lead viruses to mutate into more virulent and dangerous variants?
  • Since covid is transmitted as an aerosol and not droplets, why suggest people wear masks that don't block aerosols?
  • Does the unvaccinated person's body influence the virus to mutate?
  • What triggers virus variants and mutations?
  • How much different ate the variants from the original and why?
  • Why are covid numbers approaching 2020 levels when nearly 50% of the population has been vaccinated (or are numbers wrong)?
The answers to these will out in time, noting that mRNA vaccines are still in the discovery phase.
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Good post and good questions Jon. I am going to try and give my non-expert answers to some of these:
  • "If a vaccine doesn't completely block or eradicate the infection, will the virus mutate to evade the immune response created?" Yes, of course, this is the way viruses work, some change of mutation every time they replicate, most of the mutations are unimportant but the more the virus replicates the sooner it will be able to evade the vaccination. This is the reason we need more people to get vaccinated, fewer infections equals fewer replications and slower mutation rates. It is also the reason we will need boosters and new vaccines, I think it will be a bit like the flu shots, a new one every year.
  • "will overuse of vaccines lead viruses to mutate into more virulent and dangerous variants?" Maybe, but the history of most pathogens is towards less virulent and less dangerous variants over time. Just basic evolution, if make your host real sick you don't get passed on as effectively as the variants that are more benign. Our bodies are all infected with old viruses that have evolved into benign forms, that is likely where this one is going.
  • "Since covid is transmitted as an aerosol and not droplets, why suggest people wear masks that don't block aerosols?" All masks block some aerosol, some less effectively than others. Even just a face shield will divert the aerosols so they are less in the breathing zones of others. I think the government has largely failed us in not explaining more clearly what masks do and don't do. All filtration is measured in % effectiveness, there is no 0% and no 100%, all masks fall somewhere in-between.
  • "Does the unvaccinated person's body influence the virus to mutate?" Probably only in the sense that if they are more likely infected they give the virus more chance to replicate and mutate.
  • "What triggers virus variants and mutations?" Just replication, the more replication the more mutation. Most mutations will not lead to anything, but a few will.
  • "How much different are the variants from the original and why?" Each one just a little, more over time as more mutations occur. However that small difference can sometimes be important to us. But most are not.
  • "Why are covid numbers approaching 2020 levels when nearly 50% of the population has been vaccinated (or are numbers wrong)?" This is probably even further outside of my expertise to answer, if it is true it could be due to the relaxed social distancing we have been doing. Or maybe not. I do think it is something that researchers need to be looking at and finding reasonable science based answers.
  • "mRNA vaccines are still in the discovery phase" Absolutely, we are still very much at the bottom of the learning curve on this.
 

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