My Son Calls Them Devils. Russia Bombed A Children's Hospital

Laurie said:
And how many children's' hospitals were left standing in Hamburg after the firestorm raid?

How many children's' hospitals were left standing in Berlin in May 1945?

How many children's hospitals were left standing after we pulverised Dresden? i

It is only a war crime if the prosecution can prove that the hospital was a briefed target and the attack deliberate and pre planned, not just incompetence on the part of planners or crews.

It is a defence to prove that you had credible intelligence or what you recently believed to be credible intelligence, that combat troops, including partisans, freedom fighters, guerrillos call them what you will, were being treated and returned to the frontline That includes 13 year old Girl Scout messengers having a gash on her arm bandaged up.

If you're going to fight a war, fight the damn thing, don't pussyfoot around.

As I've said before in these columns, innocent civilians, even if they include women and children, became extinct at Guernica.

I don't remember world outrage when the IRA executed a 6 month old baby with a single shot to the head at Wildenrath in Germany in 1989.
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It will shortly be deemed a war crime by the UN. Unfortunately their bureaucracy is probably slow and will take some time.

Here is a press release from 2013, when they declared one of Putin's actions in Syria to be a war crime..


targeting civilians is a war crime.

Here's a UN Press Release, from 2013, about Russian forces targeting civilians in Syria...

If the world community had stood up to Putin then, we wouldn't be facing this now...


Deliberately Targeting Civilians ‘A War Crime’, Secretary-General Warns, Strongly Condemning Deadly Attack on Syria’s Aleppo University

https://www.un.org/press/en/2013/sgsm14767.doc.htm​

 

JonSR77 said:
If the world community had stood up to Putin then, we wouldn't be facing this now...


​

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How exactly? We're still playing Cold War "Who'll push the button first..." I think there's only been one Western leader he has taken "maybe five percent seriously" to actually go there ...I think that was the amount :rolleyes: ....and God help us all if that was our guy to stand in the breach.
 
Laurie said:
And how many children's' hospitals were left standing in Hamburg after the firestorm raid?

How many children's' hospitals were left standing in Berlin in May 1945?

How many children's hospitals were left standing after we pulverised Dresden? i

It is only a war crime if the prosecution can prove that the hospital was a briefed target and the attack deliberate and pre planned, not just incompetence on the part of planners or crews.

It is a defence to prove that you had credible intelligence or what you recently believed to be credible intelligence, that combat troops, including partisans, freedom fighters, guerrillos call them what you will, were being treated and returned to the frontline That includes 13 year old Girl Scout messengers having a gash on her arm bandaged up.

If you're going to fight a war, fight the damn thing, don't pussyfoot around.

As I've said before in these columns, innocent civilians, even if they include women and children, became extinct at Guernica.

I don't remember world outrage when the IRA executed a 6 month old baby with a single shot to the head at Wildenrath in Germany in 1989.
Click to expand...

I am going to address your specific points, point by point, within the text...


And how many children's' hospitals were left standing in Hamburg after the firestorm raid?

How many children's' hospitals were left standing in Berlin in May 1945?

How many children's hospitals were left standing after we pulverised Dresden?


There have been occasions in warfare when decimation tactics were employed to stop an unhinged, immoral aggressor, that would not back down otherwise. The general standard practice in war is that when one a side knows that it is losing and there is no hope of victory, they surrender, in order to reduce casualties. When an aggressor refuses to act in that kind of "civilized" manner of war, some military planners feel it is necessary to engage with decimation tactics. And that would include General Sherman's raid on the South during the Civil War. It would certainly include Dresden...to clearly and utterly decimate a lunatic regime that had murdered millions of civilians.
I believe the Dresden firebombing killed about 150,000 people. Horrible to be sure...but not the 10 million or so civilians murdered by the Nazis. I am not saying I agree with it, I really don't know what is right. But retaliation against demonic levels of abuse, is not the same as the instigation of them, without cause.

And it certainly included the atomic bomb attacks on Japan. I think they killed about 250,000 people combined. Estimates of casualty rates for an invasion of the Japanese mainland were put at fully 1,000,000 people. I am not one to simply believe the numbers mean everything, but some military experts do believe the two atomic bombs may have actually saved up to 750,000 lives.

It is only a war crime if the prosecution can prove that the hospital was a briefed target and the attack deliberate and pre planned, not just incompetence on the part of planners or crews.

It is a defence to prove that you had credible intelligence or what you recently believed to be credible intelligence, that combat troops, including partisans, freedom fighters, guerrillos call them what you will, were being treated and returned to the frontline That includes 13 year old Girl Scout messengers having a gash on her arm bandaged up.

To this point, I posted a UN Press Release from 2013, when the UN did, of course, declare actions of Putin in Syria to be war crimes.
Bureaucracy takes time. The UN is definitely going to declare much of the military action in Ukraine to be war crimes. I would assume that will probably take place by June, most likely by the end of the summer. I think the UN general session is in the fall. Maybe they will wait that long.


If you're going to fight a war, fight the damn thing, don't pussyfoot around.

Well, that is true in certain realms of warfare, but not all. Ukraine engaged in exactly ZERO hostilities toward Russia. There was NO WAR going on. Russia instigated it out of nowhere.

And there is a huge difference between civilians dying as a collateral effect of a military engagement, versus actually targeting them to terrorize a population. That is what Russia is doing. And it will shortly be declared a war crime by the UN.

As it should be. Because Putin is a deranged psychotic lunatic, who just directed military fire around a nuclear plant to terrorize the world. This loon needs one of his generals to put a bullet in his head, so that the rest of the world can rest easy. That is what is called not pussyfooting around. Not killing babies. Killing babies is what cowards do.


As I've said before in these columns, innocent civilians, even if they include women and children, became extinct at Guernica.

Guernica was a war crime.

I don't remember world outrage when the IRA executed a 6 month old baby with a single shot to the head at Wildenrath in Germany in 1989.

There was plenty and extensive condemnation of IRA engagements. I am not familiar with the one you cited. But the world community was hardly united behind the IRA.

That being said, the IRA did NOT target civilians, though some did die as a result of their actions. You can't compare Putin to the IRA. No comparison whatsoever.
 

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JonSR77 said:
Well, that is true in certain realms of warfare, but not all. Ukraine engaged in exactly ZERO hostilities toward Russia. There was NO WAR going on. Russia instigated it out of nowhere.

And there is a huge difference between civilians dying as a collateral effect of a military engagement, versus actually targeting them to terrorize a population. That is what Russia is doing. And it will shortly be declared a war crime by the UN.

As it should be. Because Putin is a deranged psychotic lunatic, who just directed military fire around a nuclear plant to terrorize the world. This loon needs one of his generals to put a bullet in his head, so that the rest of the world can rest easy. That is what is called not pussyfooting around. Not killing babies. Killing babies is what cowards do.
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Well said, thank you.
 
JonSR77 said:
I am going to address your specific points, point by point, within the text...


And how many children's' hospitals were left standing in Hamburg after the firestorm raid?

How many children's' hospitals were left standing in Berlin in May 1945?

How many children's hospitals were left standing after we pulverised Dresden?


There have been occasions in warfare when decimation tactics were employed to stop an unhinged, immoral aggressor, that would not back down otherwise. The general standard practice in war is that when one a side knows that it is losing and there is no hope of victory, they surrender, in order to reduce casualties. When an aggressor refuses to act in that kind of "civilized" manner of war, some military planners feel it is necessary to engage with decimation tactics. And that would include General Sherman's raid on the South during the Civil War. It would certainly include Dresden...to clearly and utterly decimate a lunatic regime that had murdered millions of civilians.
I believe the Dresden firebombing killed about 150,000 people. Horrible to be sure...but not the 10 million or so civilians murdered by the Nazis. I am not saying I agree with it, I really don't know what is right. But retaliation against demonic levels of abuse, is not the same as the instigation of them, without cause.

And it certainly included the atomic bomb attacks on Japan. I think they killed about 250,000 people combined. Estimates of casualty rates for an invasion of the Japanese mainland were put at fully 1,000,000 people. I am not one to simply believe the numbers mean everything, but some military experts do believe the two atomic bombs may have actually saved up to 750,000 lives.

It is only a war crime if the prosecution can prove that the hospital was a briefed target and the attack deliberate and pre planned, not just incompetence on the part of planners or crews.

It is a defence to prove that you had credible intelligence or what you recently believed to be credible intelligence, that combat troops, including partisans, freedom fighters, guerrillos call them what you will, were being treated and returned to the frontline That includes 13 year old Girl Scout messengers having a gash on her arm bandaged up.

To this point, I posted a UN Press Release from 2013, when the UN did, of course, declare actions of Putin in Syria to be war crimes.
Bureaucracy takes time. The UN is definitely going to declare much of the military action in Ukraine to be war crimes. I would assume that will probably take place by June, most likely by the end of the summer. I think the UN general session is in the fall. Maybe they will wait that long.


If you're going to fight a war, fight the damn thing, don't pussyfoot around.

Well, that is true in certain realms of warfare, but not all. Ukraine engaged in exactly ZERO hostilities toward Russia. There was NO WAR going on. Russia instigated it out of nowhere.

And there is a huge difference between civilians dying as a collateral effect of a military engagement, versus actually targeting them to terrorize a population. That is what Russia is doing. And it will shortly be declared a war crime by the UN.

As it should be. Because Putin is a deranged psychotic lunatic, who just directed military fire around a nuclear plant to terrorize the world. This loon needs one of his generals to put a bullet in his head, so that the rest of the world can rest easy. That is what is called not pussyfooting around. Not killing babies. Killing babies is what cowards do.


As I've said before in these columns, innocent civilians, even if they include women and children, became extinct at Guernica.

Guernica was a war crime.

I don't remember world outrage when the IRA executed a 6 month old baby with a single shot to the head at Wildenrath in Germany in 1989.

There was plenty and extensive condemnation of IRA engagements. I am not familiar with the one you cited. But the world community was hardly united behind the IRA.

That being said, the IRA did NOT target civilians, though some did die as a result of their actions. You can't compare Putin to the IRA. No comparison whatsoever.
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Sorry I am not able to read and digest large tracks of text.
 
The very act of attacking a sovereign country without a formal declaration of war is a war crime in itself and so are all subsequent acts, however you'd have difficulty bringing 100,000 Russian soldiers before the international court in The Hague particularly as Russia is not a signatory and therefore does not recognise war crimes anyway.

To come right back to basic human rights as we saw in World War Two and on many occasions since, Russia regards rape as a perfectly normal tactic of war, useful for terrorising the local population into submission.
 
JonSR77 said:
I am going to address your specific points, point by point, within the text...


And how many children's' hospitals were left standing in Hamburg after the firestorm raid?

How many children's' hospitals were left standing in Berlin in May 1945?

How many children's hospitals were left standing after we pulverised Dresden?


There have been occasions in warfare when decimation tactics were employed to stop an unhinged, immoral aggressor, that would not back down otherwise. The general standard practice in war is that when one a side knows that it is losing and there is no hope of victory, they surrender, in order to reduce casualties. When an aggressor refuses to act in that kind of "civilized" manner of war, some military planners feel it is necessary to engage with decimation tactics. And that would include General Sherman's raid on the South during the Civil War. It would certainly include Dresden...to clearly and utterly decimate a lunatic regime that had murdered millions of civilians.
I believe the Dresden firebombing killed about 150,000 people. Horrible to be sure...but not the 10 million or so civilians murdered by the Nazis. I am not saying I agree with it, I really don't know what is right. But retaliation against demonic levels of abuse, is not the same as the instigation of them, without cause.

And it certainly included the atomic bomb attacks on Japan. I think they killed about 250,000 people combined. Estimates of casualty rates for an invasion of the Japanese mainland were put at fully 1,000,000 people. I am not one to simply believe the numbers mean everything, but some military experts do believe the two atomic bombs may have actually saved up to 750,000 lives.

It is only a war crime if the prosecution can prove that the hospital was a briefed target and the attack deliberate and pre planned, not just incompetence on the part of planners or crews.

It is a defence to prove that you had credible intelligence or what you recently believed to be credible intelligence, that combat troops, including partisans, freedom fighters, guerrillos call them what you will, were being treated and returned to the frontline That includes 13 year old Girl Scout messengers having a gash on her arm bandaged up.

To this point, I posted a UN Press Release from 2013, when the UN did, of course, declare actions of Putin in Syria to be war crimes.
Bureaucracy takes time. The UN is definitely going to declare much of the military action in Ukraine to be war crimes. I would assume that will probably take place by June, most likely by the end of the summer. I think the UN general session is in the fall. Maybe they will wait that long.


If you're going to fight a war, fight the damn thing, don't pussyfoot around.

Well, that is true in certain realms of warfare, but not all. Ukraine engaged in exactly ZERO hostilities toward Russia. There was NO WAR going on. Russia instigated it out of nowhere.

And there is a huge difference between civilians dying as a collateral effect of a military engagement, versus actually targeting them to terrorize a population. That is what Russia is doing. And it will shortly be declared a war crime by the UN.

As it should be. Because Putin is a deranged psychotic lunatic, who just directed military fire around a nuclear plant to terrorize the world. This loon needs one of his generals to put a bullet in his head, so that the rest of the world can rest easy. That is what is called not pussyfooting around. Not killing babies. Killing babies is what cowards do.


As I've said before in these columns, innocent civilians, even if they include women and children, became extinct at Guernica.

Guernica was a war crime.

I don't remember world outrage when the IRA executed a 6 month old baby with a single shot to the head at Wildenrath in Germany in 1989.

There was plenty and extensive condemnation of IRA engagements. I am not familiar with the one you cited. But the world community was hardly united behind the IRA.

That being said, the IRA did NOT target civilians, though some did die as a result of their actions. You can't compare Putin to the IRA. No comparison whatsoever.
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TELL IT Jon!!!
 
JonSR77 said:
to be clear, The UN voted to condemn the Russian invasion.

That was 141 nations voted to condemn it and only 5 voted against it.

And that means, that the independent investigation of 141 out of 146 nations decided that the reports were accurate.

Percentages like that are extremely rare.


UN votes to condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and calls for withdrawal​

In an emergency session, 141 of the 193 member states voted for the resolution, 35 abstained and five voted against

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/02/united-nations-russia-ukraine-vote

and if folks have difficulty with newspaper articles, you can go to the UN webpages directly and get the same info...

Here is it, directly from the UN website:

General Assembly resolution demands end to Russian offensive in Ukraine​



https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113152
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Then their devils indeed.
 
When, and IF, the civilized world declares Russia to be a rogue nation and bans all commerce with it, this kind of thing will stop.

1. Civilized nations freeze all Russian assets.
2. Ban all Aeroflot flights over civilized air space.
3. Boycott all Russian goods.
4. Prohibit all Russian immigration into civilized nations. And all other Russian travelers.
5. No international loans to Russia.
6. Ban all Russian shipping into or out of civilized nations.
7. Banish Russian athletics from international competition.
8. No sales of any kind to Russia.
9. No trade of the ruble.
9. No international banking with Russia. AND attach all Russian banking assets.
10. If there is a way to freeze Russian world-wide-web, then do so.

I can't think of any more economic sanctions, but you get the idea.

If this kind of thing had been done to Nazi Germany, starting on Sept 1st, 1939, I doubt that the European WW2 would have happened.
 
You know, it takes a certain kind of man to join the army and then shoot innocent women and children just because they are walking on the street. No wonder my opinion of many soldiers is that they are total, brainless morons. Totally, brainless killing machines on 2 legs. Disgusting!
 
Packerjohn said:
You know, it takes a certain kind of man to join the army and then shoot innocent women and children just because they are walking on the street. No wonder my opinion of many soldiers is that they are total, brainless morons. Totally, brainless killing machines on 2 legs. Disgusting!
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But when they induct them at such a young age, they mold them to be those killing machines. Do young soldiers get to think for themselves and do as they please...NO! They have to fall in line, literally. The young soldiers are likely inundated with rhetoric and trained to be ruthless and probably heartless. This is the same thing that's happening with the young men and women who are being brainwashed by Isis and other so called "Islamic" militant groups. I saw a documentary about the process (it was definitely brainwashing) and it was shocking as hell. Unfortunately, when some of our soldiers come home from the experience of having to kill and seeing death, they are mentally shot and/or continue to have killer mentalities, even when it means they wind up killing themselves. The suicide rate among vets it too high.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
My Son Calls Them Devils. Russia Bombed A Children's Hospital
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This is absolutely horrible and indefensible. No question.

However we need to remember that our hands are not clean. Think of the "collateral" damage from our recent wars in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, etc...
Laurie said:
The very act of attacking a sovereign country without a formal declaration of war is a war crime in itself and so are all subsequent acts
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It could be argued that we did this in Iraq and other places... I don't think we have issued a "formal declaration of war" since WWII.
JonSR77 said:
there is a huge difference between civilians dying as a collateral effect of a military engagement, versus actually targeting them to terrorize a population. That is what Russia is doing.
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I agree, and if true that does make what Russia is doing very different from what we have done. Do we have evidence that this is true? Proving it may be hard.

I do not defend Russia or Putin, what they are doing is despicable. And they deserve all of the backlash they are getting, and more. I don't oppose all war, but we have been in too many.

War is hell!
 
Russia is rapidly losing ground in the Ukraine. And the majority of Russian tanks have been destroyed.

It has been said that men who are defending their own country and families are the toughest to defeat.
 
For the West to complain about Russians killing civilians is just like a vegetarian complaining about a dog eating meat!

It's in their nature, that's what they do and if we're talking about killing innocent civilians what about Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin and half 100 other places.

Hypocrisy is alive and well: As one of your own once famously said, "War is hell!". Get used to it!

Just a reminder; I'm a 40 year Air Force weapons specialist vet.
 
Laurie said:
what about Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin and half 100 other places.
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You are right of course, in WWII we were guilty of terror bombing and killing innocents. No way to whitewash... Its what we believed we need to do to end the war.

Perhaps naively, I am hoping we can move beyond that.

I know we have had "collateral damage" and killed innocents in our recent wars, but on a smaller scale, and not intentionally. I am hearing that the Russians are intentionally killing civilians. If true I believe that is reverting to WWII era war crimes.
 
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Laurie said:
"War is hell!". Get used to it!
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The full quote is:

“I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.” ― William Tecumseh Sherman

I hope we never "get used to it"!
 
We didn't start bombing to win the war, we started bombing to survive in the UK.

Innocent civilians became extinct at Guernica.

As I've said in these columns before; if you're going to fight a war, fight the damn thing, don't pussyfoot around?
The days of "Gentlemen of the French army, please have the honour of firing first" along gone.

One persons civilian is another persons food; clothing or munitions supplier.
 

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