Need a good book explaining Israel/Palestine situation?

[Daisy99]

Palestine is NOT a country. It never has been. The entire Arab world is over five million square miles in size. Since 1937, the Palestinians have been offered their own land at least seven times and they have refused every time. They have said they do not want their own land AS LONG AS ISRAEL EXISTS!

Israel does NOT start these conflicts. They want to live in peace. They will, however, defend themselves as they have the right to do.

Jerusalem is arguably the holiest city on Earth. It is sacred to Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Even today, as war trages, ISRAEL DOES NOT DENY ACCESS TO MUSLIMS TO THE DOME OF THE ROCK IN JERUSALEM.

The start of Islam is marked as the time when Mohammad issued his first revelation in 610AD. Jews existed for millennia before then.

Radical Islamists do not just want to exterminate Jews. They want to exterminate every person on the planet who isn’t Muslim.

These are all verifiable facts.

 

[AnnieA]

Here's a good overview of the history of Israel for modern times up to 2000. There are at least two key dates I see left out, the first being the 1918 defeat and dissolution of the Ottoman Empire in WWI (The area encompassing current Israel and Palestine was a region called Palestine within the Ottoman Empire whose residents were comprised of Christian, Muslims and Jews living on land that was primarily not privately owned.) The second omission is the May 1949 UN vote to admit Israel as a member nation; of the 58 UN members at the time of the vote, 37 voted in favor of Israel's admission, 6 voted against and 9 abstained.

There may be other key points left out or misrepresentations that others can catch but overall, it covers the bases of the formation of modern Israel.

 

[Rose65]

I found a free short kindle book called 'Israel - Palestine: who's the victim?' by Shahbaz Fazal.
I see it is not neutral, however, it IS free and looks interesting. So I shall read this and start to try to understand the nightmare that is going on.

 

[Magna-Carta]

Does anyone know of a YouTube video that explains calmly and clearly the history of this conflict? One without footage and images of war, without dramatic music and breathless voices. Just want facts, not opinions, preferably by a respected historian who takes no sides.
Does such a video exist in this age of noise and confusion.

I am looking really for a measured lecture, an academic look at this, without drama.

As a starting point, I would recommend these two short videos. They appear to provide an independent perspective, examining the conflict from a historical point of view. No doubt, some viewers watching any independent video of this kind might 'perceive' occasional bias. However, any perceived bias might be influenced by the viewer's own perspective & bias rather than the video creator's intentions.

Keep an open mind when forming your own opinions, and avoid adopting the opinions of others. Be a critical thinker in your study of the conflict, its causes, and its history. The complexity you perceive after watching these two short videos may be much greater than you initially thought. Whatever complexities YOU see in these two videos, multiply it by 100.

13 minute video: "Conflict in Israel and Palestine: Crash Course World History".

10 minute video: "The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history".

 

[Naturally]

Those videos are as accurate and factual as they can be in a dozen minutes of talking points and blurbs.
The problem is they focus on history of the region since WWI and disregard earlier history as peaceful and irrelevant.
That's like saying the history of England prior to the Treaty of Union in 1707 is irrelevant ... or some such nonsense.

Look at the big picture rather than picking a point in history that fits your understanding, belief, bias, narrative.
The historical fact is that Israelites / Jews occupied the land before any modern Arabs did.
In the spirit of brief summaries, here is an article from Wikipedia regarding the history of Israelites.
Included is a map of lands occupied by The Twelve Tribes of Israel.
Of course there is much MUCH more history prior to and subsequent to the events covered in the article and up to the 20th century.
The lands occupation and ownership has pretty much historically always been in a flux and dispute ... as it is today.
And arguments and conflicts of who should rightfully be there will continue as they have for at least the last couple of millenniums or so.

Israelites: A brief history on Wikipedia

 

[Rose65]

I found a free short kindle book called 'Israel - Palestine: who's the victim?' by Shahbaz Fazal.
I see it is not neutral, however, it IS free and looks interesting. So I shall read this and start to try to understand the nightmare that is going on.

A few pages tell me it's not the book I need, free though it is.
Having deleted it, I continue my search.

 

[Daisy99]

Can anyone recommend a book, ideally very clear, reasonably short, not too expensive.
A book that begins with the roots, gives the facts and above all, is impartial.

I know it's a lot to ask, but I am pretty confused and would like to know. I feel everyone else is well informed and I am not at all.

Found this online from the BBC
Israel Gaza war: History of the conflict explained

I did a Google search “unbiased history of israel vs palestine” and there are a number of articles and YT videos. You’ll just have to dive in.

 

[Magna-Carta]

Those videos are as accurate and factual as they can be in a dozen minutes of talking points and blurbs.
The problem is they focus on history of the region since WWI and disregard earlier history as peaceful and irrelevant.
That's like saying the history of England prior to the Treaty of Union in 1707 is irrelevant ... or some such nonsense.

Look at the big picture rather than picking a point in history that fits your understanding, belief, bias, narrative.
The historical fact is that Israelites / Jews occupied the land before any modern Arabs did.
In the spirit of brief summaries, here is an article from Wikipedia regarding the history of Israelites.
Included is a map of lands occupied by The Twelve Tribes of Israel.
Of course there is much MUCH more history prior to and subsequent to the events covered in the article and up to the 20th century.
The lands occupation and ownership has pretty much historically always been in a flux and dispute ... as it is today.
And arguments and conflicts of who should rightfully be there will continue as they have for at least the last couple of millenniums or so.

Israelites: A brief history on Wikipedia

I pretty much agree with what you say here. But my response to the OP is from a point of when studying the complex issues of this area of the world, it might be best for some to start with the most recent 100 years first. Every single point made in those two videos can be the basis for a much longer video for each individual point. A lifetime of study might not even cause someone to think they have become an expert on the matter. If anyone were to think that, then they would be doing themselves and this area of the world a disservice.

If anyone suddenly thinks they have got a handle on the issues, then they should think again, as further study might then turn their own initial thinking on its head, and then back again. Then there is the pre-WW1 to consider as you say, which is also worthy of study. The earlier history of the area and its people adds even more complexity to the whole thing. Most of us can only see this complex part of the world as observers. If we were physically part of it, we might then see things differently again.

 

[Daisy99]

I pretty much agree with what you say here. But my response to the OP is from a point of when studying the complex issues of this area of the world, it might be best for some to start with the most recent 100 years first. Every single point made in those two videos can be the basis for a much longer video for each individual point. A lifetime of study might not even cause someone to think they have become an expert on the matter. If anyone were to think that, then they would be doing themselves and this area of the world a disservice.

If anyone suddenly thinks they have got a handle on the issues, then they should think again, as further study might then turn their own initial thinking on its head, and then back again. Then there is the pre-WW1 to consider as you say, which is also worthy of study. The earlier history of the area and its people adds even more complexity to the whole thing. Most of us can only see this complex part of the world as observers. If we were physically part of it, we might then see things differently again.

All I need to know is on October 7, 2023, BABIES WERE BEHEADED AND BURNED ALIVE! There is no before that can ever justify that! Every single death that comes after that is 100% on radical Islamists and everyone who supports them. I am disappointed that Gaza still exists.

 

[WhatInThe]

By the time that question is asked usually means too many issues and factions in play. You have multiple generation young vs old with different experiences/opinions, multiple governments-hard and softliners, Religions including radicals and fanatics and opinions and support from the global community with interests other than settling a dispute.

 

[Magna-Carta]

All I need to know is on October 7, 2023, BABIES WERE BEHEADED AND BURNED ALIVE! There is no before that can ever justify that! Every single death that comes after that is 100% on radical Islamists and everyone who supports them. I am disappointed that Gaza still exists.

Thank you for telling us all what it is that YOU only need to know. Very enlightening, on a thread where the OP is looking for a book or a video to further their own knowledge.

As you have now opened this thread up with your post, I now wonder if it is possible for us all to dismiss everything that has gone before, on any subject, regardless what what that subject might be. Maybe this way of thinking should be introduced into court systems too. Just think of the amount of time and money that could be saved in a court by dismissing everything that has gone on before any particular latest act. We could all keep ourselves in a perpetual loop of Ignorance.

I supposed ignorance truly is bliss, to those that embrace ignorance that it. Since you are disappointed that Gaza still exist, what do you propose should be done with all the people that live there once Gaza ceases to exist.

 

[Daisy99]

Thank you for telling us all what it is that YOU only need to know. Very enlightening, on a thread where the OP is looking for a book or a video to further their own knowledge.

As you have now opened this thread up with your post, I now wonder if it is possible for us all to dismiss everything that has gone before, on any subject, regardless what what that subject might be. Maybe this way of thinking should be introduced into court systems too. Just think of the amount of time and money that could be saved in a court by dismissing everything that has gone on before any particular latest act. We could all keep ourselves in a perpetual loop of Ignorance.

I supposed ignorance truly is bliss, to those that embrace ignorance that it. Since you are disappointed that Gaza still exist, what do you propose should be done with all the people that live there once Gaza ceases to exist.

You think very highly of yourself don’t you? Apparently, though, you don’t bother to read anyone else’s comments. Typical of your type, quite arrogant. It comes across in your writing, “…might be best for some to start with the most recent 100 years first.” Actually, it might be best for you to check your ego!

I’m a retired military intelligence officer. I know more about the situation then you ever will reading your books. The bottom line, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS, is the atrocities committed by radical Islamists.

Let me guess - You’re an academic. Those who can, do, those who can’t, teach.

 

[VaughanJB]

All I need to know is on October 7, 2023, BABIES WERE BEHEADED AND BURNED ALIVE! There is no before that can ever justify that! Every single death that comes after that is 100% on radical Islamists and everyone who supports them. I am disappointed that Gaza still exists.

But we shouldn't be concerned that mothers of Palestinian children are having to write their names on their legs in case their bodies are ever excavated from rubble? The last number I saw was that 2000 Palestinian children have died thus far in this new skirmish. How do you feel about them?

 

[Magna-Carta]

You think very highly of yourself don’t you?

No, not really. What other inaccurate opinions from you do you have of me? Opinions from someone who knows little about me.

Apparently, though, you don’t bother to read anyone else’s comments. Typical of your type, quite arrogant. It comes across in your writing, “…might be best for some to start with the most recent 100 years first.”

It seemed like a reasonable point for me or anyone to make, considering I was mainly responding to the OP. It seemed like a reasonable starting point and the same starting point that many others who know significantly more about the subject than I would agree with. There was no hidden message of criticism or arrogance in it. The most recent 100 years from a history of at least the past two millennia seems like a reasonable starting point to me.

Actually, it might be best for you to check your ego!

I don't have one to speak of. I'm somewhat surprised that you feel you are so qualified to judge me in that way, based on a post or two of mine.

I’m a retired military intelligence officer. I know more about the situation then you ever will reading your books.

Please explain to me who has the ego here, you or me. Then please explain to me what books you think I have that you allude to. If you are a Retired Military Intelligence officer, then contribute something to this thread which is asking for a good unbiased unjudgemental source of information & facts.

The bottom line, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS, is the atrocities committed by radical Islamists.

Are you then saying that the only thing that matters, in a thread asking for rounded and unbiased information and facts is, "...the ONLY THING THAT MATERS, is atrocities committed by radical Islamists"? Is this the only opinion someone as a Retired Intelligence Officer has on the matter? Where is the intelligence in that? Have you got something tangible to share instead? I'm sure we would all be very interested, based on the qualifications that you put forward.

Let me guess - You’re an academic. Those who can, do, those who can’t, teach.

There you go, someone with experience as a past Military Intelligence Officer, guessing -- you can't make this stuff up.

I teach a lot of things Daisy99, as someone who has worked in the Automotive Industry for 38 years, and specifically for the past 30 at a car manufacturer, testing cars. Please tell us all more about what you think I might teach, and what else you think I do within my work, within the Quality Assurance Division.

I think it should be concerning to us all that someone who has worked as a Military Intelligence Officer can put a post together that is only based on conjecture; assumptions; and false accusations; inference without evidence of a person.

 

[TabbyAnn]

Can anyone recommend a book, ideally very clear, reasonably short, not too expensive.
A book that begins with the roots, gives the facts and above all, is impartial.

I know it's a lot to ask, but I am pretty confused and would like to know. I feel everyone else is well informed and I am not at all.

@Rose65 Rose, I’m not aware of a condensed book, however there are 3 books from which you can discern the root of the problem. They by-pass current bias because they were written before the current conflict. They are history books and 2 are available in libraries worldwide.

The first is a documentary of the 1971 attack by the Muslim Army of West Pakistan on unarmed civilians in East Pakistan, written by a war correspondent. The rapes, mutilation, torture and murders the Muslim Army inflicted on babies. women and men of East Pakistan were so gruesome and horrible the soldiers appeared to be inhuman creatures. The name of the book is Massacre: The Tragedy at Bangla Desh.

The second book is the Quran and the third is the biography of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. Neither presents a pretty picture and both are contrary to our morals, constitution, and laws. Both permit war, violence and polygamy. Muhammad had 11 wives and one was a 9 year old girl.

Fast forward to 9/11/2001 when Muslims burst upon the American scene with all the fire, brimstone and carnage of the Twin Towers. And Muslim mayhem has continued almost non-stop ever since, from ISIS to Hamas. Hamas wasn’t the only Muslim group involved in the Oct. 7 carnage. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad was also involved and took some hostages.

So the root cause goes beyond the current conflict and covers much more time and distance.

 

[Murrmurr]

"A Century of Palestinian Rejectionism and Jew Hatred" by Sol Stern.

I think it's still available on Amazon.

 

[TabbyAnn]

A documentary about the historic week at Camp David where President Clinton tried to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians aired recently on public tv. The Palestinians refused a generous peace, land and unoccupation offer. When the Secretary of State at that time was asked about the disappointing outcome, all she said was “the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

 

[Murrmurr]

A documentary about the historic week at Camp David where President Clinton tried to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians aired recently on public tv. The Palestinians refused a generous peace, land and unoccupation offer. When the Secretary of State at that time was asked about the disappointing outcome, all she said was “the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

And that's because the Palestinian political leader's goal isn't territory, it's to eliminate Jews. After that, they'll take the land with complete disregard for any sort of permission or treaty or agreement.

 

[Rose65]

@Rose65 Rose, I’m not aware of a condensed book, however there are 3 books from which you can discern the root of the problem. They by-pass current bias because they were written before the current conflict. They are history books and 2 are available in libraries worldwide.

The first is a documentary of the 1971 attack by the Muslim Army of West Pakistan on unarmed civilians in East Pakistan, written by a war correspondent. The rapes, mutilation, torture and murders the Muslim Army inflicted on babies. women and men of East Pakistan were so gruesome and horrible the soldiers appeared to be inhuman creatures. The name of the book is Massacre: The Tragedy at Bangla Desh.

The second book is the Quran and the third is the biography of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. Neither presents a pretty picture and both are contrary to our morals, constitution, and laws. Both permit war, violence and polygamy. Muhammad had 11 wives and one was a 9 year old girl.

Fast forward to 9/11/2001 when Muslims burst upon the American scene with all the fire, brimstone and carnage of the Twin Towers. And Muslim mayhem has continued almost non-stop ever since, from ISIS to Hamas. Hamas wasn’t the only Muslim group involved in the Oct. 7 carnage. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad was also involved and took some hostages.

So the root cause goes beyond the current conflict and covers much more time and distance.

Thankyou so very much. But I don't think I can inflict such horrible things into my mind by reading. I'm horrified at what is happening and pray it will somehow end soon.

 

[TabbyAnn]

Thankyou so very much. But I don't think I can inflict such horrible things into my mind by reading. I'm horrified at what is happening and pray it will somehow end soon.

: I understand your feelings. I experienced a similar revulsion back in 1975 when I read the war documentary. I put the book back on the shelf and didn’t mention it for a number of years. But when history began to repeat itself all over the globe, and people only focus on the peripheral details of the most current shock, instead of looking at the root cause of similar shocks around the globe, I felt the need to speak up. Anyway, I appreciate your need for a respite from it.

 

[stretch5881]

Roots? Start with the Bible. There is no short story for the conflict in the Holy land.

 

[Rose65]

Roots? Start with the Bible. There is no short story for the conflict in the Holy land.

Wise words. I doubt there can be any happy endings.