Offensive word in a movie

Sunny

Sunny

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Last night, I streamed an old English film, Kind Hearts and Coronets, starring the late, great Alec Guinness. I thought the movie was marvelous, even though it was made in 1949. Sir Alec plays 8 parts, one of them a woman! But I got a shock near the end.

One of the characters, a woman, plus the Alec Guinness character, are amusing themselves by remembering a childhood playground rhyme, which contains an extremely offensive word. Apparently it was not so offensive in England in the 1940's. I probably couldn't even use that word on this forum, and would not want to. I felt like I had received a punch in the stomach!

The word was not only said (several times), it was flashed in big letters as part of the Closed Captions I use for most shows, especially the British ones which don't have a sound quality that works too well with my TV. That word spoiled the movie for me, and I didn't like it any more, though I stuck with it to the end.

Was my reaction fair? After all, this was made in 1949. The year was supposed to be around 1912. The word was not used as a pejorative, or used by a "bad guy" as an insult, it was supposed to be a funny part of a children's rhyme. And the two characters were supposed to be upper class types, to boot.

If the word should have been removed, should they have substituted a different word? Or maybe just leave the rhyme out of it altogether? It was not at all important to the plot.

Any ideas on this?
 

No. Was it even considered crude back then. It gave you a sense of history. I presume this was an accurate use of the rhyme.

I was just mentioning to my husband that when I was a kid in the 50s we had a very popular rhyme with a totally unacceptable word now. I didn’t have a clue.
 
Things that are offensive to us now were not "back then." I love history, and sometimes I get ahold of old newspapers from the 40s/50s, etc. Yes, some things I see shock me now, but it was simply different then, right or wrong.

As for substituting a word in an old movie for a 21st century audience... nope, copyright issues would kick in if closed caption would start "rewriting" the script, if I'm not mistaken.
 
In WWII, RAF Wing Commander Guy Gibson had a black Labrador with a name that’s now recognised as a racial slur. That name appears in the 1969 film Battle of Britain, which I first saw as a child. I wasn’t offended by it at the time, and I see it as a product of its era. I don’t believe historical facts should be rewritten to suit modern sensibilities, though I do think context matters.

In some American films, the word is used in a very different, almost reclaimed way among Black characters. I think this highlights how the meaning of all words, and intent, can shift depending on who’s speaking and why, and in what context

Personally, I’m not offended by words in themselves, and certainly not when shown in a movie. It’s how words of used on a personal level that matters to me. If the word is used deliberately to cause offence, then I take issue with that action.

You only have to look around this forum to see how some are deliberately offensive to others with their phrasing -- and that when using innocent words in a way that pretty much dismisses a whole nation or the efforts of its people. The actual individual words used almost become inconsequential to their usage.

Use a word as a weapon, and it will be received as one. If not that, then it might just expose a person’s lack of historical knowledge and complete ignorance. So ignorant that they themselves can't even perceive how offensive they are being, when they then defend themselves when only armed with more ignorance.
 
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I find it somewhat sad that some history is being erased because we might be too easily offended.

While I know that the phrase "history is written by the victors" has its validity, and that I'll probably never know
things that were expunged before I was even born... I see words and phrases interesting and have always
been fascinated by etymology and idioms... so I guess that I'm biased about this topic and just don't like watching it happen
in my own time.

Somethings, no doubt need to be left behind. I'm sure that most folks are happy that the dinosaurs "went the way of the dinosaurs", but personally, I don't get easily offend by words themselves... I do when they are backed with hatred.
 
Yes. The rhyme starts with eenie, meanie, minie, mo...

"Kind Hearts and Coronets" is one of my favorite movies, almost every line is funny and often the humor is subtle. For example: Our main character, Louie, who is murdering his way up the royal line to become a Duke, has caused his cousin and his cousin's girlfriend, whom he has spent the night with in the hotel, to go over a waterfall and die. Louie says, "I felt a bit bad about the young woman, but I believe she had already met a fate worse than death."

I know the rhyme you mean and it wasn't intended to be funny just a children's rhyme that was in common use back then. All the kids said it when I was growing up and in whiter than white West Virginia, we had no idea what it even meant. I imagine the writer just wanted to convey childhood friendship.

I watch old movies a lot and sometimes the treatment of minorities or things men say about women can seem offensive to us today and It just makes me glad we've grown out of all that. if it was till in use -- then I'd be upset.
 
Why should a few lines in an old movie be re-written just because someone is feeling offended. This was made in 1949 – times were different then – no one actually believed they were offending anyone by reciting the rhyme. Today we are more aware and sensitive to our social environment. What’s next? re-painting some famous paintings because they are offensive?
 
hollydolly said:
I posted the word..well the initial ..is enough for everyone to know... N****r
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Talk about old age and amnesia being common bedfellows. Previously I had read through the thread, saw your "N" remark and thought: "Of course!" Now some eight or nine hours later, and remembering that Alec Guinness did cause a stir with that blasphemy, I posted it, completely forgetting that I had read through it previously. What am I like?
 
Well, you must not watch any of the new movies. Most of them contain more than one offensive word...several times to the point of overkill ! I really hate this new "trend" but so many writers seem to think it adds to their script, when in fact, it detracts from them. Unless I want to see a movie really badly, I skip movies with so much fowl language. I don't think one vulgar word would turn me off to an entire movie. Hard to tell, though since you won't say what the word was.
 
hollydolly said:
Here in the UK, they blank out words in old films and TV show which may be offensive to a modern audience.... it's a ridiculous really.... and there's a HUGE list...sometime I'm sitting there watching something, a prefectly normal show and suddenly 2 or 3 words are blanked out in a sentence, and I'm think...what now ?
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I think the concern over offending the audience has more to do with avoiding loss of advertising revenues rather than any "PC" conformity.
 
OK, I'm back. Thank you for all the thoughtful comments. Since my thoughts on the subject are undecided, I found the pros and cons very interesting.

Yes, of course it was the N word, and I think the reason I found it so offensive was that it just came out of nowhere, and didn't seem to fit those characters or the movie. Of course, rap performers, gangsters and racists in movies, use the word all the time, usually to an annoying extent, even if you don't find the word offensive. And I don't find Mark Twain's use of it for the Jim character in Huckleberry Finn offensive, as it takes place in probably the early 19th century, and that really is what Jim would have been called. It was part of his name.

This felt different. I remember Eenie Meenie Miney Mo from my own childhood, and this was funny, the second line was "Catch a nickle by the toe." We always said it like that, and it never occurred to me to wonder what a nickle was doing with a toe. It wasn't until I grew up that it finally dawned on me what the rhyme probably originally said.

In this movie, the rhyme felt out of place. In fact, I would have thought it was American, not British, and I have never seen or heard the N word used in any British book or movie. And if it had any meaning in this otherwise hilarious tale of lighthearted murder, I don't know what it was. But I don't like censorship either. Which is why I still feel undecided about how appropriate this word is in the context of an ironic, wickedly funny movie.

If anyone wants to find it, I watched it on Tubi. It had ads, unfortunately. It may be available elsewhere.
 

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