For what purpose? It's not up to me to prove something exists, it's up to those who think it exists. Can't prove a negative. I have nothing to prove.
These discussions are fun, like a college bull session without the dope.
People are Leaving their Churches in Droves Today
- Thread starter Dubee
- Start date
- Status
These discussions are fun, like a college bull session without the dope.
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
i would think it goes back at least that far but rather than try and attach a date I prefer to say beliefs regarding what is sacred in some form or other go back as far as people have been recognizably human.
Well said.
Well you made a clear statement there is no God. You must have some kind of theory behind that statement.
hearlady
Basic Member
- Location
- N Carolina
Exactly.
No theory, no god. Nada, zilch.
Again, everything in life is man-made, except for science and nature. If man creates chaos, it’s our own doing. Not God’s.
hearlady
Basic Member
- Location
- N Carolina
I need to feel something is there for me. Something I've not seen and may not exist. I feel faith that I can call on something out there. I don't always get the answer I want but I can get through things this way.
Most of us who call ourselves believers admit that we are basing our belief on spiritual experiences, we believe because we feel the grace and spirit of God and it's as real as the love we feel for our children. We know we have no scientific proof for the existence of God anymore than we have scientific proof that we love our children. That's why it's called a faith and not a science.
On the other hand so many atheists who have such high esteem for science and for things that can be proven, are the ones saying with perfect assurance, "There is no God." Where is your proof?
I thought one of the silliest things I ever heard was an astronaut saying he lost his faith because he went to the moon and back and didn't see God. LOL Was he expecting to see a kindergartner's idea of God with a long white beard sitting on a cloud? Never mind that the part of the universe he had traveled was like a grain of sand in the beach, he was expecting to see with his eyes a force so great we have no idea what form it will make.
fuzzybuddy
SF VIP
- Location
- The Sticks, Northeast PA.
I rambled on about the decline of religion, but I think Pepper hit the nail on the head. Years ago, people would have been ostracized for deny a deity existed. Today, nobody gets all that bent out of shape over it. People can show their true feelings about religion.
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Leastwise I don’t automatically accept as true the opposite of whatever someone has asserted without support. Failing to justify a belief isn’t any kind of evidence of its truth or falsity. Since everything to do with the sacred or at least “God/gods” and “soul” are not simply definable, one would have to make some effort to understand what is meant. No doubt you’d get as many different conceptions of them as you do for “love”, “truth”, “beauty” and “goodness”. Same goes for purely secular notions like “self” and “ego” and “authenticity”. So to really make a case for or against gods, souls and the sacred generally you’d have to first of all recognize what would be the best conception so as to avoid making an open and shut case against a straw man version. But learning that isn’t as simple as reaching for a dictionary or google and chat bots would be pointless.
I think most people, in their heart of hearts, do not believe in god, or at least do not believe in the teachings of Jesus. If they do believe, why then behave like you don't? I don't, but behave like I do.
When I say God created science, I mean He gave humanity a brain to figure out how the world evolved in nature, and how the human body and brain works, and all the sciences to help cure diseases, and try to solve new ways to cure cancers and other un-curable diseases. He gave man a brain to figure out the best ways to live in society, to house humans comfortably, to grow the best foods for good nutrition, how to help poor nations convert bad water into good water, how to conserve our energy, He helped man to understand that cruelty, murder, stealing, lying, and selfishness were wrong, and gave man the reasoning to make laws and govern those laws.
God gave man a brain to figure out how studies of all the sciences is the best way for human survival. Without them, we would still be living in caves.
Jesus died on a cross to forgive our sins. God gave us life, science and nature. I prefer to worship God.
God gave man a brain to figure out how studies of all the sciences is the best way for human survival. Without them, we would still be living in caves.
Jesus died on a cross to forgive our sins. God gave us life, science and nature. I prefer to worship God.
hearlady
Basic Member
- Location
- N Carolina
I call on deceased relatives too, for help.
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
That begs a few questions such as: do actions such as to give and the decision and intentions that lead to them, when applied to the fount of being really parallel those actions as they apply to us? Is apt to personify the sacred in this way? Seemingly something like this might be as far beyond our capacity to understand as our mental processes would be for an ant to grasp. We esteem ourselves very highly but should we be complimented or insulted if ants conceived of us in terms of pheromones?
I understand why people use their faith to seek help in solving their problems. That falls under the category of hope. I, for one, always used the philosophy of positive thinking to help me solve my problems. The power of positive thinking is a great science of solving your own problems. Just giving it up to a Higher Power is more along the line of wishful thinking. Thinking positively more along the line of “I can solve this problem. I can get help. I can stop drinking and using. I can find a better way to pay my bills.” Is a lot more productive than wishful thinking.
You are right, Pepper. There are answers to most all spiritual experiences. Not all of them. Some have no explanation at all, like a freak accident, or a coincidence. But most all other experiences are explained through the sixth sense God gave us. Intuition, a feeling, a suspicion, anxiety, a desire, a creative thought process, a belief system, a wonderment or awe, a need for love and attention, humor, the experience of pain and loss, the craving to learn more, fear, and yes, hope, too. Science is still trying to understand the Six Sense, but one doesn’t really need an explanation for it. We all have it. We just do.
Ok. I accept that.
Right. I do not believe Jesus is a god and our savior. I believe it is wrong to worship Jesus as a god. God, our Creator, commanded “Thou shalt not have any other gods before me.” I believe that the Roman Church created the Trinity, and they are wrong to do so.
JustDave
Well-known Member
I've said at times, "There is no god," knowing full well that such a claim calls for support which is impossible to offer. But that response is a reaction to the constant proselytizing by theists who claim to know there is a god because of bla bla bla. It's not a part of my personality that I'm proud of that when I get annoyed with bullshit, I tend to mirror more bullshit back at the annoyance. It's a poor way to argue, because bullshit doesn't deserve an argument. Nor does it need a reflection of bullshit. But in more polite discussion I should have replaced the word "bullshit" with the phrase "unending lists of logical fallacy."
First, few atheists in serious discussion make the claim that there is no god, although I've known a handful that do, and I've listened closely to their arguments, but none of them convinced me. While they may be excellent reasons to doubt the existence, they don't rise to the level of proof I would require, just as no theists has ever offered me similar proof.
Second the claim "I don't believe in God," does not equate to, "There is no God," and does not require proof.
I simply don't believe in God, and that means exactly what it says and nothing more.
It seems to me that many theists incorrectly jump to the conclusion that, "I don't believe in God," displays the same amount of conviction as their belief, which so many of them claim to be actual knowledge. As if experience or their personal revelation equates to "knowledge" and is independent of any possible flawed perception.
Or possibly theists believe the opposite of religious belief has to be the opposite belief, when opposite of any belief is just the null quantification (an empty space) (no belief).
Of course there are as many different kinds of theists as there are people, and the above cannot apply to all theists. A majority? I don't know. It seems like a majority to me, but maybe the annoying ones just stand out.
Then you don't believe in the Bible, right?
I don’t accept everything in the Bible as true. In the Old Testament, the Jews documented a lot of history, but they exaggerated a lot of the stories. So, it’s mix bag of truth and mythology. As for the New Testament, a large majority is mythology, and there are a lot of contradictions in the four gospels. Paul’s letters to the Romans is another mix bag of good advice. However, Paul never met Jesus, and never quotes him. He is more the source for why Christianity was created.
The biggest question I have is why was nothing ever written down during Jesus’s lifetime, and why did it take 30 years for the Apostles to start writing about him?
- Status