People are Leaving their Churches in Droves Today

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't consider mere belief or lack of belief important enough to require proof.

I don't equate belief with an assertion.
I don't equate lack of belief with an assertion.

When one claims actual knowledge, proof should be included.
 

officerripley said:
The thought of my eternal consciousness/soul/whatever you want to call it going on forever is the absolute worst thing I've ever thought of; ugh.
Click to expand...
Consciousness without body related ego is far different. Those who have had their hearts stop for a long period of time recall being part of this godly consciousness that is unconditional love , meaning there is no fear.
Our egos create fear. I’m not trying to convince anyone of my beliefs though. I personally would baste in that unconditional love forever and a day.
 
Dubee said:
I can prove there is a God in nature and science. There is no other intelligence that could design such an amazing thing as what we witness every day in our life. Just think of the intelligent design of the human body. What is our heart and brain capable of doing to keep us alive? The chemistry and biology is mind boggling . There is no way it could have just happened without some creative, intelligent design. The possibility of everything in life is a maste rful design by an intelligent superiority that cannot be ever imagined, and we may never see, but just know He is there.
Click to expand...
I used to say only god could have created cats. Who else could make something so wonderful? That satisfied me for awhile. Your point above is meaningless except to yourself. No way, no other, No No, must be what *I* decided it is. Not proof. I do not question what your belief is for you; just saying There is no way you have proven anything.

I think humans are leaving religion in droves because they now have the guts not to fear what doesn't even exist. Happy for you though, and others who share your view; actually wish I could drink your Kool Aid. Mean that sincerely.
 
Last edited:
Dubee said:
There is no other intelligence that could design such an amazing thing as what we witness every day in our life.
Click to expand...
Why is intelligence needed at all? I know, you are going to tell me and a polite dissection of that follows:

Dubee said:
Just think of the intelligent design of the human body. What is our heart and brain capable of doing to keep us alive? The chemistry and biology is mind boggling.
Click to expand...
That intelligence is required because without it, your mind is boggled, is the fallacy of the argument from ignorance (<- link provided). Ignorance in this case simply means what you don't know, and is not derogatory. Jumping to a handy assumption is a comforting way of filling in our blind spots, but it's not proof.

Dubee said:
There is no way it could have just happened without some creative, intelligent design. The possibility of everything in life is a masterful design by an intelligent superiority that cannot be ever imagined, and we may never see, but just know He is there.
Click to expand...
Basically, the same argument as before, but unnecessarily muddled by your imagination that is imagining something you say cannot be imagined.

I appreciate your sense of awe when confronting the mysteries and beauty of nature and the cosmos. I have the same awe, but awe is not proof. But I do bask in the great pleasure and satisfaction of the awesome. I would love to understand it all, but it is above our pay grade.
 
Pepper said:
Your point above is meaningless except to yourself. I do not question what your belief is for you; just saying There is no way you have proven anything.
Click to expand...

I have to agree. And talking about God, gods or religion is pretty vexing. If only we could all put down the bull horns and keep what you just wrote in mind. All anyone can do is state the truth as they see it. It does no good to ask for proofs or evidence unless we’re talking about empirical matters. For those like me who have no conception of a god, I think the better tack to take is to seek to understand why such beliefs have been so important nearly everywhere to so many for so long. For those who hold a traditional set of religious beliefs it would be better to wonder how those who don’t hold those same beliefs might nonetheless be important to God. It is easy to become glib and insulting on both sides. For this kind of conversation to have any value both sides need to turn down their egos. Reminds me of an article a friend just sent me that was published five years ago in Scientific American magazine.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...essing-need-for-everyone-to-quiet-their-egos/

In case it is behind a pay wall I’ve copied out a few excerpts:


“We are more divided than ever as a species. Tribalism and identity politics are rampant on all sides of everything.

Watching debates in the media (and especially on YouTube) lately has been making my head explode. There seems to be this growing belief that the goal is always to win. Not have a dialectical, well-intentioned, mutual search for overarching principles and productive ways forward that will improve humanity-- but to just win and destroy.

I think we tend to grossly underestimate the extent to which the drive for self-enhancement actually gets in the way of reaching one's goals ..

Since psychologists use of the term ego is very different ways, let me be clear how I am defining it here. I define the ego as that aspect of the self that has the incessant need to see itself in a positive light. Make no doubt: the self can be our greatest resource, but it can also be our darkest enemy. On the one hand, the fundamentally human capacities for self-awareness, self-reflection, and self-control are essential for reaching our goals. On the other hand, the self will do anything to disavow itself of responsibility for any negative outcome it may have played a role. As one researcher put it, the self engenders “a self-zoo of self-defense mechanisms.” I believe we can refer to these defensive strategies to see the self in a positive light as the “ego”. A noisy ego spends so much time defending the self as if it were a real thing, and then doing whatever it takes to assert itself, that it often inhibits the very goals it is most striving for.

Paradoxically, it turns out that quieting the ego is so much more effective in cultivating well-being, growth, health, productivity, and a healthy, productive self-esteem, than focusing so loudly on self-enhancement.

To be clear, a quiet ego is not the same thing as a silent ego. Squashing the ego so much that it loses its identity entirely does not do yourself or the world any favors. Instead, the quiet ego perspective emphasizes balance and integration.”
 
I had 12 years of Catholic schooling, by nuns and priests. At age 8, I started questioning things that didn't make sense. I remember the nun talking about Moses and the plaques. One of the plaques was the all of the Egyptians horses, cows, chickens, goats- all their animals died from the length and breadth of all Egypt. After the last plaque, when the first borns died, Pharaoh let Moses' people go, but sent his calvary to annihilate them. I raised my little hand and asked "Where did Pharaoh get the horses for his calvary?" The nun couldn't answer that. By the time I was 13, I was a confirmed atheist.
I don't really think there is a decline in religion. I believe there was always a small fraction that truly believed, and more or less coerced their friends and family to attend services. You had to believe in God. Atheists were pariahs. Today, atheism is no big deal. There's no longer any social stigma in being atheistic, or whatever your interpretation of a deity. So, the people, who never truly believed, are leaving religion.
 
My parents dragged me to church and insisted I went to bible class (where I was happy to argue with the 'teachers'). They could never say why I should, only that it was the 'done thing'. Nobody here, as far as I can see, bothers about church. There used to be two churches in the village - Church of Scotland and 'Free church' of Scotland. Not any more - the Free church went long, long ago and the other is now a derelict shell.

I never had any real belief in a 'God' and I'm quite happy with that.
 
Dubee said:
I’m writing a book about the new phenomenon of people leaving their churches in droves these days. Similar to the Age of Enlightenment in the late sixteen hundreds and early seventeen hundreds when our Founding Fathers were writing up the Constitution. Thomas Paine’s book “Common Sense” helped our great leaders form new ideas about freedom - free speech, and freedom of religion. Did you know our first four Presidents were non-believers? Thomas Paine’s book “The Age of Reason” inspired them.

My question to you is, if you left your church, what was your reason for doing so? A bad experience? Not enough time? No longer a believer, or just tired of it? No judgement or preaching here. I left because of Thomas Paine’s book, “The Age of Reason”. I still believe in God, our Creator, and give Him thanks every day for all He has given to me. How about you?
Click to expand...
I have stayed in the Word because it is my belief system. I have left a church I was going to because I longed to be back in my home church. These "big" churches that "stage the lead singers and many other reasons is why I left. I went back home to the environment I longed for.
 
Dubee said:
I can prove there is a God in nature and science. There is no other intelligence that could design such an amazing thing as what we witness every day in our life. Just think of the intelligent design of the human body. What is our heart and brain capable of doing to keep us alive? The chemistry and biology is mind boggling. There is no way it could have just happened without some creative, intelligent design. The possibility of everything in life is a masterful design by an intelligent superiority that cannot be ever imagined, and we may never see, but just know He is there.
Click to expand...
I feel the way you do about nature. Always have done. But even I have no proof.
What I will say, I find the most peace when surrounded by the beauty of trees and glorious mountains and I get such a surge of Spirit within me that I have no doubt a divine mathematician created all this. For me that creator is God.
 
Jeni said:
As once said in a TV show ironically paraphrased....... "it not that the person does not believe in something but doubts they are taking attendance"
Some of the most distasteful people i know use church going like a get out of hell free card they attend but once out the door nothing follows....
More people might have realized that after not attending through covid and seeing they can still practice belief and faith without others in a room
Click to expand...
Yes, they take attendance, but most businesses do that. I focus on the good things rather than the bad ones. I believe that where your focus is where you will wind up going. Let your words and your focus be on God, not people, and be determined to lift up or encourage not criticize. And sometimes that can test your belief. Encourage in the face of adversity and be determined.
 
I am a believing Christian, and I attend church sporadically, but only donate frugally, and my reluctance to donate is due to my belief that I can make better use of my donations elsewhere. I think the church, although well meaning, is an inefficient way of using money.

I am probably wrong about that, and probably not having enough faith in the church, lol.

My current church just built a brand new church and spent 22 million dollars on it. That's right, twenty-two million dollars. That is mind blowing.

So, to the point, no, I am not leaving my church, and I even attend other churches that are more 'primitive' and satisfying.
 
Many of the small churches in my area are closing their doors. The mega churches who preach the prosperity theory seem to thrive. (The more you give to the church the more you will prosper.) The preachers are doing quite well.
 
As with other Christian religious threads, I strongly disagree with what some anti-religious members post but rarely bother to respond beyond briefly even though I could because there is usually little point in doing so beyond understanding how others feel about subjects. There are some strong arguments against the existence of any supernatural beings including gods. And also some excellent arguments for the existence of a powerful force in nature whether supernatural or vastly more advanced. Large libraries are filled with books on these subjects that a feeble web discussion can't adequately address.

Community web forum discussions are poor places for productive religious discussions. Some anti-religious members will repeatably cherry pick warring sections of the Bible as though it was actually written by God (instead of ancient ruler's scribes with an agenda), ancient Bible sections that don't conform to recent Western morality like modern law and gender issues. Or anti-science actions of some limited denomination (usually young Earth Baptists), or something immoral or unethical a prominent church goer was hypocritically caught doing, or rant about why didn't God do something about what some small minority of pedaphile pervert priests or preachers secretly did [not His responsibility.], or how in the name of the church some ruler then warred against innocent others as with the Crusades, or why doesn't a loving God help the poor, abused, and weak, why is there so much evil in God's world if he made it [He didn't.], or why didn't God save my little dog Alphie after I prayed, or how could <species name> have developed purely by evolution, or why doesn't God simply show himself so we can believe, and a long list of others that were written by men, but blamed on God [Because he never responds to direct Earth monkey questions.]. (Despite the inerrant inspired nonsense.) Religious authorities are of course very guilty of bringing many of these criticisms on themselves because of their own long history of manipulative agendas and creative statements claiming to be led by God [God is laughing at that.].

Of course apologetists have reasonable arguments for addressing or understanding the above. Anyone can now easily read about them with a mouse click. But on a web board, it it easy for members to repeat any of the above as though they are still open questions requiring additional debate. With the WWW there are enormous resources on the web for these subjects and I would suggest starting with the balanced views of Wikipedia that provides lots of links for deeper resources. Most of the time people just post the above to emotionally bait others into needless discussion because they know many just cannot resist being dragged into their cat turd flavored sandbox.
 
Last edited:
Dubee said:
May I quote you in my book?
Click to expand...
Sure, I think the TOS are that anything we say becomes public domain or something like that anyway. And luckily there are no scary religion enforcers in my life that would have any power to harm me for having 'wrong' (in their opinion) beliefs.
 
I mean no disrespect but it seems you are not writing the book but rather having the members of Senior Forum write the book FOR you.
Many opinions here are misinformed, misguided, or ignorant of the truth of things.
Please be careful of what is published as many misconceptions given as fact may produce harmful effects.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top