Race/Racism discussion

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applecruncher

applecruncher

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Long-time SF members know that I'm black, but for those of you who don't, my picture is the first in this thread.

https://www.seniorforums.com/showth...-high-school-pics!?highlight=high+school+pics

I'm a little older now :grin: But I'd like you to remember my pic, because later I plan to tell you something that happened to me when I was 17 years old, the age I was in that picture.

I'm not the only SF member 'of color' - I know of several others.

My purpose in starting this thread about race/racism is to hopefully have some honest, interesting, informative discussion. I'm aware that people of various races are/have been subjected to racism....in some form. This is not just about racism towards blacks in the US. I'd also like to try to clarify what is/is not racist.
If this discussion moves along, I'm going to be sharing some experiences, and I'd like input from others. This is not the applecruncher show.

I'll start off by answering a question I hear/see online, IRL, and on TV.

QUESTION: Why is it wrong for whites to use the N-word, but it's okay for blacks to use it when talking to each other or in rap music? ANSWER: It isn't. I know some blacks use the word and think it's okay in music, but I don't feel it's EVER okay, and people I'm related to and associate with agree with me.

QUESTION: Is it racist to say OJ was guilty or that Bill Cosby is a piece of crap for what he's been accused of? ANSWER: No. And it's not racist to feel Harvey Weinstein is a piece of crap if he did the things he's being accused of. I also think convicted child molester Jerry Sandusky is a monster and I'm glad he's in prison for the rest of his life.

QUESTION: Do black people ever accuse other blacks of being racist towards whites? ANSWER: Yes, but they will often keep it among themselves. We don't all stick together all the time. Case in point: A former neighbor (young black woman) had a4 year old daughter. Seemed to me that our brief conversations centered around her feelings that white people were prejudiced. It grew tiresome. She mentioned a day care center down the street, but said they probably didn't want a black child. I happened to know there were minority children in their care. I said to her: "Ya know, Tasha, there are things that go on in this world that have nothing to do with race. By your own admission, you didn't try to enroll your daughter. If you had visited and talked to the staff, you would find there are other minority children." After that we didn't have a lot to say to each other.

Just want to get things started. I'll be back.
 

Here's something I've wondered about: why am I hearing that race relations have gotten worse? This really blindsides me, I thought that as more effort towards equality and inclusiveness was made, that things would be getting better.

Or, is news reports getting a 'spin' from some quarters?
 
Thanks for starting this thread. This is a subject worth discussing until it is no longer a problem--unfortunately, probably forever, since humans seem to fear/dislike anyone who differs from themselves. I hope overall things are getting better.
 

Why is the N word considered a terrible racist word to use...after all the years of it not being deemed offensive..?...I'm usre you don't have all the answers to everything , AC..but you may know this better than google..


Talking of racism, why is it that the Chinese and the Japanese here in the Uk are law abiding , well mannered, studious and hard working in the main, and no-one uses any kind of racial slurs against them...yet from what i read in the media, and elsewhere this is not the case in other countries such as parts of Australia, and many parts of the USA.. possibly other places too.. anyone idea why that might be the case? It's just always made me wonder
 
I thought that race relations had gotten better but it seems that racism was just driven back into the shadows for a few years and now it appears to be more mainstream again.

This forum has such a diverse group of contributors and racism is such a very personal topic that I'm afraid my clumsy attempts to express myself will immediately offend one person or another.

I'm curious to see where this thread goes and will jump in again later.
 
hollydolly said:
Why is the N word considered a terrible racist word to use...after all the years of it not being deemed offensive..?...I'm usre you don't have all the answers to everything , AC..but you may know this better than google..


Talking of racism, why is it that the Chinese and the Japanese here in the Uk are law abiding , well mannered, studious and hard working in the main, and no-one uses any kind of racial slurs against them...yet from what i read in the media, and elsewhere this is not the case in other countries such as parts of Australia, and many parts of the USA.. possibly other places too.. anyone idea why that might be the case? It's just always made me wonder
Click to expand...

As far as I know, the word "n@@@@r" has always been offensive and perjorative. I do know people who somewhat disagree with me, but they say it depends on who is saying it and to whom. :rolleyes:

Interesting what you say about Chinese/Japanese, hollydolly. Another thing is that Asians don't have the problems of having children out of wedlock that the black community has/still does. But that will another discussion......to be addressed later (I have my own opinions).
 
AC, I agree with your first two answers and appreciate that you set Tasha straight in the third scenario.

HollyDolly, in my area of New England, I am unaware of any racial slurs against people of Asian descent, thank goodness.
 
"N@@@@r" derives from the Latin "Niger" (black), and seems to have first been used in the 16th-17th centuries.

Long time for a pejorative to be in use, but then the English language is filled with many such examples.

Here's an observation / question ...

I've known both white and black families that are upper-class as well as middle- and lower-class. I'm not really talking about money, I'm talking about social abilities - open-mindedness, friendliness, willingness to listen to reason. "Good" people.

Why don't the middle- and upper-class among us fight the lower-class of ALL races?
 
Actually that's a thought to be going on with...you're right about the Chinese not having any major problems with the children out of wedlock scenario... not to say that might be the same in China but here in the west, I've never heard of an Asian, having children out of wedlock... interesting thought which I'm sure will elicit alternative views from posters who perhaps have a higher ratio of Chinese and Japanese where they live
 
Racism is deeply ingrained in all of us, (most likely) on a genetic level. It takes a good deal of higher brain function to override the lower brain function wherein racism lurks. Allow me to explain: Racism has its roots in a given species noticing that the life form it is currently meeting is different from its own species. In most cases, in Nature, different is bad. Different means you may be encountering a predator that wants to eat you. Conversely, different may mean that you are encountering a possible prey species, and that may be good, but you better proceed with caution, because you never know - - - - .

Now, let's kick this up to H. sapiens, us. Over the evolutionary period where our species was evolving, other hominid species were still extant. If you wandered away from your kind, and encountered other similar, but different species, the odds were that the outcome was not going to be too good for you. Coming up into H. sapiens' time, your group depended on each other for survival. You had limited food resources, in some locations, limited water, land, etc. Interacting with your own kind, effectively, was absolutely necessary for your survival and the passing on of your own genes to your progeny. If you came upon another group of your own species, you were an outsider, you threw their balance out of whack, and you probably were quickly dispatched.

Any group members who had an innate fear of other members of its own species, who were in different groups, had a survival advantage. They lived to pass on their genes. Skin coloration, and manifested genetic traits associated with each group having different skin colors, served as clear signals that the individuals having these differences were certainly different from your group. You were immediately ill at ease in the presence of "different" because that served your ancestors well in millennia gone by. It served you well, too.

OK, let's come into modern times. We can certainly intellectualize that all people are created equal: Given the same cultural and educational opportunities, we all can get along fine, we can intermarry across racial lines, we can have friends from all different races, we can work together effectively, etc., etc. Still, in our lower brain, the survival mechanism, as above, remains and lurks. Those who noted differences and avoided them, in evolutionary time, survived and passed on this awareness trait. Those who didn't, perished. So, a white person meeting a black person cannot help but notice "different," and vice versa. This applies to all cross-racial dealings.

There are some folks I've met, in my lifetime, who have told me they honestly don't remember, at times, the race of a person they met. Incipient dementia notwithstanding, I don't believe them, unless they are so highly evolved that they do not have that "on guard" trait in their genetic make-up. Anyway, the above is my take on things. It is not meant to justify racism, only to explain its possible genetic basis, as I see it. As I wrote, at the top, it takes a real effort to override lower brain functions. As one who attended a school that was 87% black (I'm white), as one who has chosen, throughout my life, to live in racially diverse neighborhoods, as one who dated, and lived with, women from many different racial backgrounds, I think I've done pretty well, towards that end. I celebrate the diversity of our species.
 
Something that often makes some black people suspicious and wondering if a white person is racist is 1) racism is sooooo easy to hide 2) they've had an experience where a white person seemed decent and not at all prejudiced, then months/years later something happens that proves otherwise. When that happens, it can be like a knife in the stomach. It hurts.

Here comes a story.....get something to drink.

When I turned 16 as soon as the school year ended, I told my mom I was gonna go out and get a real job. Babysitting wasn't cutting it - I wanted real money. I got dressed up, walked to the ice cream shop where high kids got shakes and cones......no luck. Next, I walked to the grocery store where mom shopped, not far from where we lived. (This was in a smaller town.)

It was a medium sized chain store (not quite as big as Kroger, but still a decent size). Filled out an application, and the assistant manager came to talk to me. He said they might need someone, and that he would be in touch.

Two days later I was hired to be a cashier! :)

The training period was kinda tough (the old cash registers, way before scanning). I worked fulltime during the summer, and made good money. I continued to work a few evenings and also weekends during the school year. Saved up enough to get a pair of contact lenses ($150...$1,100 in today's dollars).

I was the only black employee. Friends of my relatives would tell me how proud they were that I was working the register and handling money. The owner/manager was super nice man.....I made mistakes but was treated very well. Employees were truly like a little family.:love_heart:

I stayed there 2 years. The owner sold his franchise to another man named Dane. Family man, hardworking, very involved in church. Nice enough. At the end of my senior year I got a better job for the summer in the office of the electric company, and I was preparing to go off to college in the fall.

On my last day (a few days before graduation), Dane came up to me as he was leaving and said "Well, good luck, (AC). Sorry to see you go, but we'll just get ourselves another N@@@@r to replace you." :eek:mg1: :wtf:

Folks, I was stunned. GOBSMACKED. My face got hot, my eyes welled up. I stammered......"That wasn't very nice....." Dane shrugged, grinned, mumbled "Sorry" and walked away!! (This was 1968, a couple months after the assassination of Martin Luther King.)

That really hurt me. :( But I didn't tell anyone. Why? I knew my mother and stepdad would be hurt, and might have gone to talk to Dane. My older brother definitely would have. I refused to allow the racist dog Dane to spoil my spirit, my graduation festivities, or my family's happiness and excitement. I refused to let him bring me down.

I quickly wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper about racism (in a general sense) and it was published the next day! The phone rang off the hook. I was quite the celebrity. The Mayor wrote me a nice letter and sent me a laminated copy of my published letter. How about THAT, Dane? :kissmy:
 
hollydolly said:
Why is the N word considered a terrible racist word to use...after all the years of it not being deemed offensive..?...I'm usre you don't have all the answers to everything , AC..but you may know this better than google..


Talking of racism, why is it that the Chinese and the Japanese here in the Uk are law abiding , well mannered, studious and hard working in the main, and no-one uses any kind of racial slurs against them...yet from what i read in the media, and elsewhere this is not the case in other countries such as parts of Australia, and many parts of the USA.. possibly other places too.. anyone idea why that might be the case? It's just always made me wonder
Click to expand...
I'd like to know when the N word was not deemed offensive?? It has always been offensive...I don't care WHO uses it. I try to school the young people on the history of that word because some use it as a term denoting friendship and affection. Not cool and not smart. It was used to signify that we were less than animals.. It was used to shame us and denigrate us. Reminds me of when Reagan, then president said "he remembers this country when it didn't have a racial problem". I was like..."When the hell was THAT??!!"
 
OneEyedDiva said:
I'd like to know when the N word was not deemed offensive?? It has always been offensive...I don't care WHO uses it. I try to school the young people on the history of that word because some use it as a term denoting friendship and affection. Not cool and not smart. It was used to signify that we were less than animals.. It was used to shame us and denigrate us. Reminds me of when Reagan, then president said "he remembers this country when it didn't have a racial problem". I was like..."When the hell was THAT??!!"
Click to expand...

yes that may be so...in the USA...but I never knew it ever to be offensive in the UK... in fact I still hear black people use it to this day between each other..but nowadays of course it's deemed to be very seriously racial to use it if you're not a person of colour.

An example there have been people hauled into court on a racist charge for using that word...the only difference is none of them have been of colour , no black person to my knowledge and believe me our media would be reporting it... has ever had another black person charged with racial slurs for using the N word.. ...so in the USA it may always have been thought of as a racist term...but not until relatively recently here in the UK...

I hasten to add I personally have never used that word, it just would never occur to me to use it..whether it was when I didn't know it was a racist term or now.... just as it would never occur to me for example to call a Chinese person or a Pakistani person, anything other than Chinese or Pakistani...
 
@hollydolly

In the mid 1970s I went to New York city to visit a close friend who is white/Jewish. Earlier that year she had gone to London to join her parents who were there on business. She said something she noticed was that East Indians (from India) held mostly subservient jobs. ......cleaning, busboys, housekeepers, elevator operators......she said they never saw one Indian working in a bank, office, etc. I know this isn't the case now, but any comments? Maybe that was just her observation.
 
applecruncher said:
@hollydolly

In the mid 1970s I went to New York city to visit a close friend who is white/Jewish. Earlier that year she had gone to London to join her parent who were there on business. She said something she noticed was that East Indians (from India) held mostly subservient jobs. ......cleaning, busboys, housekeepers, elevator operators......she said they never saw one Indian working in a bank, office, etc. I know this isn't the case now, but any comments?
Click to expand...

Yes that was the case then...including bus driver and conductors etc., although tbf in Scotland where i grew up we had very few people of colour and those we did have ran their own businesses..mainly shops and tailoring etc.. but .., thankfully menial jobs are not the norm today any more than they are for non coloured people...

So many of our top doctors, surgeons, dentists, male and female are Indian and pakistani.... as well as CEO's of major companies etc...

There were very few East Indians here in the 70's most of them didn't arrive until the 1950's.....so most people of my parents generation had never seen a Black or Indian person in real life..much less lived among them or worked with them.

History tells us that during the 40's and 50's jamaicans and Indians were arriving by the boatload, because as far as they had been taught we were the mother land as their countries were part of the commonwealth... ...and whether the indigenous white folk feared them or what happened I don't know, but many new imigrants with high hopes for a great life were to be seriously disappointed ..because I have learned that they were unwelcome in many places in the UK... some Boarding houses would even have signs up saying '
''No coloured, no Irish, no children”

I have an adopted father... he's a Jamaican black man...and he came over in the 40's and made a great success of his life as an entertainer, well known enough to eventually work with Sammy davis Jnr etc... but the stories he told me of the abuse he was met with during his first few years here ..was shocking to me ...


Anyway time to leave this thread..I think now, I'm getting in way above my head, I don't know enough about racism to be able to debate it with any real understanding of the subject...
 
AC true the N word has always been offensive but what about the other words used instead. In my 75 years on this planet I've heard and used *****, Colored, Black, African-American, and others. It seems each generation picks a favorite word and other words are then considered Racist.

Being old and uninformed of the latest fad, I certainly may use the wrong words but I do not use them in any way that could ever be considered racist.

BTW, what word do you currently call yourself?
 
rkunsaw said:
AC true the N word has always been offensive but what about the other words used instead. In my 75 years on this planet I've heard and used *****, Colored, Black, African-American, and others. It seems each generation picks a favorite word and other words are then considered Racist.

Being old and uninformed of the latest fad, I certainly may use the wrong words but I do not use them in any way that could ever be considered racist.

BTW, what word do you currently call yourself?
Click to expand...

Black, since early 70s. Not a fad, never changed. But when someone says African American it's okay. Understandably confuses some people.
 
treeguy64; "Racism is deeply ingrained in all of us, (most likely) on a genetic level."

Not on a genetic level, no. Racism is 100% learned.

I can explain a couple of reasons why very few Asians have children out of wedlock. Marriages are still arranged in many Asian countries. At the very least, marriage is strongly encouraged and expected. Also, in a majority of Asian countries, there is no shame attached when a woman gets an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy whether she's married or not.
 
I'm sorry that happened to you applecruncher. I know you were too classy (and stunned) to coldcock him but he certainly deserved it.
Let's hope karma took care of him.
 
tnthomas said:
Here's something I've wondered about: why am I hearing that race relations have gotten worse? This really blindsides me, I thought that as more effort towards equality and inclusiveness was made, that things would be getting better.
Click to expand...

I was watching the OZY show about racism and realized the Civil Rights Bill would not pass in today's climate; heck, it wouldn't be created or come up for a vote.
 
Interesting conversation starter, AC. I grew up in a small town. Met my first black class mate in the 7th grade. In fact, we remained friends through graduation.
My parents were both very racist. Once, when shopping downtown with my mom, I ran into Kevin, my black classmate. We said hello and chatted for a minute or two, about school, homework and the like. My mom was livid..with a "What will people think" attitude. I spent my adult life trying to look beyond their negative feelings.
I really try to be nice and respectful to all people I me, no matter who they are or skin color. I try not to judge. I have a lot more I could say, but will reserve comments for later in this thread
 
@Marie5656 interesting. There's a movie "Far from Heaven" with Dennis Quaid, Julienne Moore, and Dennis Haysbert (black actor with great voice who does the Allstate Insurance commercials) that came to mind when I read your post.

Time for another story:

I was born in and went to elementary school in a small Ohio town (different town than high school). I was always friends with and socialized with the pretty, popular girls - even though my brother and I were the only black children in that particular school district. I think my first experience with outward racism was when I was in second grade when I was 7. The girls in my clique sat together at lunch and invited each other for sleepovers.

I slowly began to notice that Marianne never invited me to her house - not for birthday parties, sleepovers, anything. Never. But she went out of her way to be nice and talk to/play with me. Once while in line for lunch I asked her - point blank - when was it going to be my turn to spend the night. Marianne exchanged looks with the other girls and her face turned red. She said: "You can't. My parents said you aren't allowed in our home because of the color of your skin."

Wow. There was a long silence. Interesting that Marianne felt guilty and knew it was wrong, but there was nothing she could do.

In third grade I became friends with Tracy. Her family was new in town; her father was a very prominent doctor. Tracy had a birthday party and invited me. She said her mother would pick me up and bring me home. My mom was a bit nervous and asked me "Does Tracy's mother know you're 'colored'?" My 8 year old self replied "I don't know, but she'll find out when she comes to get me." :) Had a great time.
 
When I was in high school, one of my best friends was a "Colored Boy'. We shared a lathe in wood shop.

He played the bass "fiddle" in the school band. Several years later he moved to N Y City and played bass with a couple of

big well known orchestras. His name was Major Holly. I used to see his name in the NY Times quite often.

Couple years ago. I "Googled" him and found several write-ups about him; well known among the musicians there.

I think he passed on awhile back. He was getting old like me.
 

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