The futuristic vision of Elon Musk and the economy.

bobcat

bobcat

Well-known Member
Location
Northern Calif
Don't get me wrong, he is quite the visionary and has achieved remarkable things, and is due credit for all that.
This is with regard to his vision that, in the near future, work will be optional, and income will become irrelevant because the cost of goods will become so cheap. In this future, we will get a Universal Basic Income (UBI), and it will take care of our needs. This just seems like a pipe dream to me.

We have had robotics and automated manufacturing in all phases of industry from car manufacturing to making toothpicks, and I haven't seen costs going down. Even with energy production from windmills, to solar, and nuclear. So much of it is automated, and yet the cost doesn't go down. If so many current jobs are going to be replaced by AI and robotics, where will the UBI come from, and would it be enough to pay for healthcare, groceries, utilities, transportation, clothing, mortgages, insurance, and a host of other expenses.

I am always a skeptic about such predictions, but maybe I'm missing something. Could we possibly survive in a post-capitalistic world where everything costs almost nothing, and we get free money without working. I just can't imagine it. If this is just a mirage, then what happens when so many of the jobs have been replaced, and the utopian future society doesn't happen?

In the past, advances in technology created new jobs. A TV news anchor or TV show actors didn't have those jobs before TV was invented, but now they do. However, this seems different. Once AI becomes more knowledgeable than humans, and robotics can perform even delicate tasks, will humans even be necessary for future jobs? IDK
 

For such a heavy handed OP, this is a very simplistic response but it's the first thing that came to mind. Two local fast food chains have installed kiosks which will eventually replace counter cashiers / order takers. Potentially, this will enable the chains to hold down prices at a time when local news reports say that 37% of Americans are cutting back on eating out. At the same time, it will raise unemployment, but not reduce prices to consumers.
 
MACKTEXAS said:
For such a heavy handed OP, this is a very simplistic response but it's the first thing that came to mind. Two local fast food chains have installed kiosks which will eventually replace counter cashiers / order takers. Potentially, this will enable the chains to hold down prices at a time when local news reports say that 37% of Americans are cutting back on eating out. At the same time, it will raise unemployment, but not reduce prices to consumers.
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Well, I suppose that if humans didn't have to go to work anymore, at least it would eliminate a lot of travel expense and possible car insurance, so at least there's that. Then there would also be no need for lunchrooms, heating, and benefits, so perhaps it will domino or trickle down. IDK
 

bobcat said:
Well, I suppose that if humans didn't have to go to work anymore, at least it would eliminate a lot of travel expense and possible car insurance, so at least there's that. Then there would also be no need for lunchrooms, heating, and benefits, so perhaps it will domino or trickle down. IDK
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Well, we do know that advocates of trickle-down economics would have us believe so.
 
Great questions, @bobcat... I've been wondering about such things for a while now and am simply clueless
in regard to finding answers.
As @MACKTEXAS brought up... it seems that the road to the utopia Musk (and many others) is talking about is going to be paved with the lives of many people in the here and now.
Right now, AI, robotics, automation are simply putting people out of work. I guess that some folks are making a profit from it... enough so, that everyone who is a "decision-maker" like politicians, corporate executives, entrepreneurs, or whatever are pretty much jumping onboard the tech growth in these areas. So, the changes are affecting all areas of both society and economy.

Also, I've wondered about "people types"... who all are the people that are spearheading and guiding these changes? Are they nice people or are they mostly greedy and opportunistic? Perhaps they're immature but wildly smart people... and have watched a lot of Bevis and Butthead and that Jackazz show... and have a bit more than a little schadenfreude about them?
Who knows... surly it's a mix of people types that are going to be "in charge". So, I never believe the prognostications and outlooks about this soon-coming future that I see on TV or read about.
But I do believe one thing... there's simply *no escaping it and all those folks that tried to drop off the grid are going to have a tougher time of it, me thinks. They have some great tracking abilities these days... 😂

*edited: TY @MACKTEXAS
 
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I have no idea if Musk's media-covered prediction about AI taking over so completely in 10 - 20 years from now is at all realistic. It may not be accurate in terms of how technically rapid AI & robotics' takeover could actually occur. But what I often think is that it's a shame that Elon personally never worked in something other than computer hardware and digital stuff.

I think, had he worked his way via ordinary jobs (hamburger flipper, clerk, mailman, bus driver, warehouse manager, hospital orderly... you name it) he'd have a better understanding of people: "the human touch", social relations, and the way people learn "common decency". Because he seems to have almost zero feeling for these.

His vision is sketchy, It leaves a tremendous amount out — and lacking in humanity, I think it lacks realism. A rapid, aggressive AI roll-out would leave a huge mass of people feeling disoriented and aimless. Difficult to imagine, when Elon presents his prediction, that the main effect wouldn't be a lot of sporadic social chaos. History seems to show social chaos tends to involve an increase in violence.
 
bobcat said:
Don't get me wrong, he is quite the visionary and has achieved remarkable things, and is due credit for all that.
This is with regard to his vision that, in the near future, work will be optional, and income will become irrelevant because the cost of goods will become so cheap. In this future, we will get a Universal Basic Income (UBI), and it will take care of our needs. This just seems like a pipe dream to me.
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It's a ridiculous statement on his part. Pure fantasy. People endlessly complain about EBT and other benefits people get today, and we're supposed to believe that in the future we'll all just sit at home and get a allowance. Madness. Worse, it's not really even worth thinking about beyond the initial raising of eyebrows.

You suggest Musk is a visionary, but what examples are there of him being so? Mostly, he's just very very rich. Most of his ideas don't come to fruition.

Covid-19 brought about a paradigm change in work, and they're slowly being rolled back now. Musk's suggestion is an impossible dream for most everyone. But, perhaps not for a Musk who has more money than God.
 
JBR said:
I have no idea if Musk's media-covered prediction about AI taking over so completely in 10 - 20 years from now is at all realistic. It may not be accurate in terms of how technically rapid AI & robotics' takeover could actually occur. But what I often think is that it's a shame that Elon personally never worked in something other than computer hardware and digital stuff.

I think, had he worked his way via ordinary jobs (hamburger flipper, clerk, mailman, bus driver, warehouse manager, hospital orderly... you name it) he'd have a better understanding of people: "the human touch", social relations, and the way people learn "common decency". Because he seems to have almost zero feeling for these.

His vision is sketchy, It leaves a tremendous amount out — and lacking in humanity, I think it lacks realism. A rapid, aggressive AI roll-out would leave a huge mass of people feeling disoriented and aimless. Difficult to imagine, when Elon presents his prediction, that the main effect wouldn't be a lot of sporadic social chaos. History seems to show social chaos tends to involve an increase in violence.
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Yes, I think, like many inventors and innovators, their main quest is money. Not much thought is given otherwise. I suppose it was bound to happen though. Once technology can do something, it usually does if there is promise of reward. It may be a bumpy ride for the rest of humanity.
 
bobcat said:
Don't get me wrong, he is quite the visionary and has achieved remarkable things, and is due credit for all that.
This is with regard to his vision that, in the near future, work will be optional, and income will become irrelevant because the cost of goods will become so cheap. In this future, we will get a Universal Basic Income (UBI), and it will take care of our needs. This just seems like a pipe dream to me.

We have had robotics and automated manufacturing in all phases of industry from car manufacturing to making toothpicks, and I haven't seen costs going down. Even with energy production from windmills, to solar, and nuclear. So much of it is automated, and yet the cost doesn't go down. If so many current jobs are going to be replaced by AI and robotics, where will the UBI come from, and would it be enough to pay for healthcare, groceries, utilities, transportation, clothing, mortgages, insurance, and a host of other expenses.

I am always a skeptic about such predictions, but maybe I'm missing something. Could we possibly survive in a post-capitalistic world where everything costs almost nothing, and we get free money without working. I just can't imagine it. If this is just a mirage, then what happens when so many of the jobs have been replaced, and the utopian future society doesn't happen?

In the past, advances in technology created new jobs. A TV news anchor or TV show actors didn't have those jobs before TV was invented, but now they do. However, this seems different. Once AI becomes more knowledgeable than humans, and robotics can perform even delicate tasks, will humans even be necessary for future jobs? IDK
Click to expand...
Well I'm not convinced that Musk himself is a 'visionary', he is adept at working the system for gov't contracts. All of the Utopian scenarios of the past 100 years predicting the "easy life" based on machines, robots and such get dredged up and proclaimed from time to time, but never seem to quite materialize.
 
I know nothing of Elon Musk’s social relations, but I can only take what my grandson has to say about being an employee of his.

At the Tesla plant in Austin, Musk has been around and talked with, shook hands with the guys there.
Grandson loved meeting Musk…. sounds like a good and very generous employer, and took in interest in what they had to say.
How many head honchos do that?

Now, this was a while back ….
the amount of activity going on with Musk in the southern part of the state is mind-boggling.
There are several new production plants going up,
and of course he has his own city. …Starbase:

iu
 
bobcat said:
Don't get me wrong, he is quite the visionary and has achieved remarkable things, and is due credit for all that.
This is with regard to his vision that, in the near future, work will be optional, and income will become irrelevant because the cost of goods will become so cheap. In this future, we will get a Universal Basic Income (UBI), and it will take care of our needs. This just seems like a pipe dream to me.
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Hopefully his vision includes places like this that exist now.


India has 6.7 million children going without food: Study
India had by far the largest number of zero-food children (6.7 million), which is almost half of all zero-food children in the 92 countries included in this Harvard study.
India has 6.7 million children going without food: Study
 
MACKTEXAS said:
I think you meant no escaping it.
Maybe (at my age) I'll escape the worst of it. :LOL:
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I've been thinking.... I'm glad I'm old. I really don't think I'm up for all the New World Order stuff. I just want to move to a quiet place where people still talk to each other and things are a little like they used to be. Like you said - At my age.... ;)

Universal Basic Income is a scary thought - because I have little faith in the governments around the world. Smaller countries seem to do a much better job of being socially conscious (taking care of everyone, not just the uber rich).... but here in the USA ... well...

I see a world where there is rich and poor with very little in-between. And the robots? I've watched too many movies like Terminator, I Robot, The Matrix.....
 
Knight said:
Hopefully his vision includes places like this that exist now.


India has 6.7 million children going without food: Study
India had by far the largest number of zero-food children (6.7 million), which is almost half of all zero-food children in the 92 countries included in this Harvard study.
India has 6.7 million children going without food: Study
Click to expand...
Good points. Robots and AI can't make food, but hopefully technology will be able to help in some ways.
I try to keep in mind the adage of: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.
It doesn't work in all situations, but there is some truth there.
 
I agree that someday we will see a government sponsored Universal Basic Income complete with a benefit package that will include healthcare, education, etc…

In my utopian world the UBI will replace pensions, social security, unemployment insurance, welfare, etc…

People will continue to work, save, invest and continue to pay hefty taxes.

For people that choose to work the amount of their UBI wiuld come in the form of a standard income tax deduction.

The UBI will be the universal safety net that provides a basic guaranteed standard of living to everyone from the cradle to the grave.
 
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Aunt Bea said:
I agree that someday we will see a government sponsored Universal Basic Income complete with a benefit package that will include healthcare, education, etc…

In my utopian world the UBI will replace pensions, social security, unemployment insurance, welfare, etc…

People will continue to work, save, invest and continue to pay hefty taxes.

For people that choose to work the amount of their UBI wiuld come in the form of a standard income tax deduction.

The UBI will be the universal safety net that provides a basic guaranteed standard of living to everyone from the cradle to the grave.
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I wonder though. Why would anyone take a job that pays $4,000 a month, if they could stay home and collect half of that, especially if the extra $2,000 they made from working was heavily taxed to pay for the UBI concept. Also, there may not be that many jobs left in the workforce anyway. IDK, I don't have the answers, but I do have worries and questions.
 
bobcat said:
I wonder though. Why would anyone take a job that pays $4,000 a month, if they could stay home and collect half of that, especially if the extra $2,000 they made from working was heavily taxed to pay for the UBI concept. Also, there may not be that many jobs left in the workforce anyway. IDK, I don't have the answers, but I do have worries and questions.
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My feeling is that we already pay for most of those things now through a mish mash of well intentioned programs and it would be more efficient to just include everyone in a single program and get on with it.

No need to worry, we’ll all be long dead before it ever comes to pass. Maybe we should include burial benefits in the UBI. 😉
 
bobcat said:
Well, I suppose that if humans didn't have to go to work anymore, at least it would eliminate a lot of travel expense and possible car insurance, so at least there's that. Then there would also be no need for lunchrooms, heating, and benefits, so perhaps it will domino or trickle down. IDK
Click to expand...
... and, if humans didn't have to work, it would free them up for creative thought (no pun intended).
 
bobcat said:
Don't get me wrong, he is quite the visionary and has achieved remarkable things, and is due credit for all that.
This is with regard to his vision that, in the near future, work will be optional, and income will become irrelevant because the cost of goods will become so cheap. In this future, we will get a Universal Basic Income (UBI), and it will take care of our needs. This just seems like a pipe dream to me.

We have had robotics and automated manufacturing in all phases of industry from car manufacturing to making toothpicks, and I haven't seen costs going down. Even with energy production from windmills, to solar, and nuclear. So much of it is automated, and yet the cost doesn't go down. If so many current jobs are going to be replaced by AI and robotics, where will the UBI come from, and would it be enough to pay for healthcare, groceries, utilities, transportation, clothing, mortgages, insurance, and a host of other expenses.

I am always a skeptic about such predictions, but maybe I'm missing something. Could we possibly survive in a post-capitalistic world where everything costs almost nothing, and we get free money without working. I just can't imagine it. If this is just a mirage, then what happens when so many of the jobs have been replaced, and the utopian future society doesn't happen?

In the past, advances in technology created new jobs. A TV news anchor or TV show actors didn't have those jobs before TV was invented, but now they do. However, this seems different. Once AI becomes more knowledgeable than humans, and robotics can perform even delicate tasks, will humans even be necessary for future jobs? IDK
Click to expand...
I just wish people would stop trying to run the world for the rest of us.
Just leave us alone, lighten up, let things develop naturally, like atomic-bomb dropping, mass starvation, and other world-as-we-know-it-ending scenarios, which are unavoidable anyway.
 
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VaughanJB said:
It's a ridiculous statement on his part. Pure fantasy. People endlessly complain about EBT and other benefits people get today, and we're supposed to believe that in the future we'll all just sit at home and get a allowance. Madness. Worse, it's not really even worth thinking about beyond the initial raising of eyebrows.

You suggest Musk is a visionary, but what examples are there of him being so? Mostly, he's just very very rich. Most of his ideas don't come to fruition.

Covid-19 brought about a paradigm change in work, and they're slowly being rolled back now. Musk's suggestion is an impossible dream for most everyone. But, perhaps not for a Musk who has more money than God.
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Somebody doesn't like Musk?
 
Elon Musk's primary vision: him sitting atop the heap of a few trillionaires whose corporations continually marginalize, destroy or vacuum up all competitors, and who oversee (control) the masses because the masses' power has been methodically stripped from by said power brokers installing themselves and their minions in all branches of government.
He's not the only one with this vision.

(Edited for clarity.)
 
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And then can you imagine if there was a gov shutdown and nobody got their UBI? And what would become of society if nobody was working? Mentally & physically? We saw what the lockdowns did. Can you imagine what would become of people if they had nothing to do 24/7?
 
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