The girl with dreadful scarring on her arms, (you'll know who or what I blame for this, and the perennial question, who loves them?)

Jeni said:
I would have to agree did anyone step up to help or seek help....... in many many things .....when seeing stories or items and i wonder to myself " what were the family / parents even friends thinking?" ....perhaps they though "this is a phase or wait and see" Are they really waiting for a serious crisis to pay attention? After so many tragedies we find damaged people who did not get the help or people running for cover by saying "I did not know...."
i see it in more things then this example as well.....weight: either anorexic or overweight .... underage drug or alcohol use.... or even bad influences in their lives etc.

Are parents/ family really too busy to see a person in trouble?

More people checking in on a child's mental health and watching for signs to nip in bud is by far better........ then "i was really busy... did not see this or that behavior shift .... or really bought excuses child gave"
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Firstly its helpful to my attempts to discuss this topic here that we start by being in sort of agreement, (not 100%, as I'll try to explain later, but the "who did what/when" bit, rather than necessarily "seek help" bit, as commented on in my last couple of posts to other forum members).

I'll put something to you first concerning "loving parents" and what that might entail, (as though we don't know you might say, but my argument developed over a plethora of posts/threads, over many years, mainly concerns the situation following divorce/separation of the parents etc., so slightly more complicated perhaps).

Trying to be as succinct as possible I'll list a few things for you I'd expect you might agree with generally.

1). Can we agree "most children(/adults) can show selfish characteristics"? (that's pretty normal/average isn't it, we're all guilty of being a bit selfish sometimes, right?)?

2). Opportunities may arise when you're looking after your child, for the parent to try to encourage your offspring to be a little less selfish, (you'd agree with that statement I hope?)?

3). Forcing your child to share whatever it might be, their toys or whatever, is a life lesson worth trying to try to give your child, (without getting "too heavy" about this, or lecturing them, because you know darn well we're all selfish human beings, when trying to instill better behaviour in our children, so we're sort of hypocrites to an extent, you'd agree?)?

Right, with all that maybe more or less agreed between us, what's the relevance to children experiencing difficulties, (or going on to experience serious difficulties in their lives)?

I think the relevance is that those children who do learn the virtues of good behaviour towards other children, (not being forced upon them mind, but "encouraged to consider others"), may go on to be more resilient when life becomes a bit more challenging for them, and you'd agree they're likely to have more little friends if they learn to share things better too! :)

Rights, what's left, well I must admit I'm a great believer in treating lots of things children go through as "just phases", (so not trying to analyse everything to the ninth degree, and letting things "slide" a bit sometimes).

Finally what does a loving parent bring to the table beyond what I've already mentioned (?), well obviously a host of things, but just here I'd suggest "telling the child in a nice way things the child might not always wish to hear"!

This is where my fathers/parents rights thinking comes in, because "who is to say what the right thing is to say to your child in any given circumstances", and were that not the case our child would be less unique to us than they are",...,( I accept my argument here isn't succinct btw, but you'll have to excuse that being the case!).
 

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Some research on childhood obesity, (a related topic perhaps, or as some have commented):
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-weight/childrens-weight/overweight-children-2-5/

Quote:
"More children than ever are overweight, but there's plenty you can do to help your child achieve a healthy weight.

Being overweight is bad for your child's health now and in the future. Overweight children are much more likely to be overweight as adults, putting them at increased risk of a range of health problem"

More research here:
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroo...bese-if-mothers-stick-to-a-healthy-lifestyle/

Quote:
"These findings highlight the potential benefits of implementing parent based interventions to curb the risk of childhood obesity, they say. “Prospective research examining the role of fathers in the development of obesity in offspring is needed” they add."

And here from the BBC, referring to Oxford University:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19661085

Quote:
"The health risks for obese children may be even greater than previously estimated, new research suggests. So why do parents let their children get fat?
The recent start of the new school year was greeted with reports of a dramatic rise in demand for extra-large uniforms for primary school pupils."
(Break)
"From a very early age children are very good at using a "whole set of behaviours" to get what they want, say experts. It's easy to judge but nearly every parent in the land has caved in to some sort of emotion blackmail from their child, says *****. It just might not be about food.
 
Perhaps better evidence here on over weight children, and link to relationship with at least one parent:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4768551/


Quote:
"The causes of childhood overweight are numerous and inter-related. The mother-child relationship is of great significance for the child’s health. Previous studies have found patterns of dysfunctional interaction in families with obese children. Therefore, development of childhood overweight could be due to the mother-child relationship. The aim of this study was to investigate how, and to what degree, the mother-child relationship, assessed by the mothers, was related to overweight among children aged seven to nine years."
 

Another website here, this one focusing upon fathers, rather than "parents", and I imagine you will notice the paragraph I've chosen to pick out and object to, in an overall pretty good site:

https://family.lovetoknow.com/about-family-values/role-father-family-today-past

Quote:
"Importance of Father"

"The father figure plays a significant role in affecting the mental and physical health of their child or children. Regardless of how the father figure is connected to the child or which name for dad they call this parent by, the most important aspect of the parent-child relationship is the quality of it, and not whether the child and father are blood relatives."
 
Remy said:
Who loves them? Who knows. But there are parents who claim to love their children but abuse them. What has happened in these people's lives only they really know.
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I didn't properly address your post a day or two ago, so will try again here.

The word "abuse" has I believe come to mean different things over the years, (I've even heard it postulated those of us found to have "not been acting in our child's best interests", because in the opinion of some court appointed "expert" we didn't take our children to interesting or enjoyable enough places during contact visits are somehow guilty of child abuse, farcical as that may sound to you perhaps?).

However, let's use the word "abuse" to mean what most ordinary people these days would think of as abuse, (in most of the UK a parent smacking their child but not leaving a mark is not guilty of abuse, but anything more than that and you're guilty, and of course there are a whole range of abuses some parents "even natural parents" are guilty of at times, though statistically I believe stepparents remain the greater risk here).

Above in one of my posts quoting various websites, mainly on the causes of obesity in young children, you will notice an expert examining the part the mother-child relationship plays in equality, without considering the father. Must charge battery now
 
Della said:
I'm so sorry, Lavinia. That must have put you in a no win position.

Most self-cutting happens in high school and that's when the love of our parents takes a temporary back seat to the opinion of our peers. I think bullying often plays a part.
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Thank you for the sympathy. I should add that my daughter didn't start cutting herself until she left home and moved to London. I didn't know about it until she came home for a visit and I saw the marks on her arms.
 
grahamg seems to be suggesting that all people who self-harm are unloved, but this is not the case. Some have psychological problems, and do it to gain sympathy and attention.
I didn't know it at the time, I found out later that my daughter had told lies at school about her situation at home. It wasn't until a woman knocked at my door and handed me a pair of shoes for my daughter, 'because I understand you are too poor to buy her new ones'.! That morning when she was getting ready for school, there was an accident with her shoes and she had to go to school in her gym shoes. I met her at the school gates and took her to buy new ones.
It turned out that this lie about poverty was not the first lie she had told!! So one really must keep an open mind on this subject and not jump to the wrong conclusions.
 
I strongly believe that they do it to be able to feel something anything, even pain.
They are so closed in that they can't relate to anyone or any situation.
They are forever on the outside looking in, never belonging, never wanted, and never able to live up to the expectations of society.

It is a truly horrible thing, they can't forgive they can't forget.
They are trapped in their own turmoil and do not see past the pain they live with every day.
 
Lavinia said:
grahamg seems to be suggesting that all people who self-harm are unloved, but this is not the case. Some have psychological problems, and do it to gain sympathy and attention.
I didn't know it at the time, I found out later that my daughter had told lies at school about her situation at home. It wasn't until a woman knocked at my door and handed me a pair of shoes for my daughter, 'because I understand you are too poor to buy her new ones'.! That morning when she was getting ready for school, there was an accident with her shoes and she had to go to school in her gym shoes. I met her at the school gates and took her to buy new ones.
It turned out that this lie about poverty was not the first lie she had told!! So one really must keep an open mind on this subject and not jump to the wrong conclusions.
Click to expand...
Can I just correct your first line as to what I'm suggesting, (you'll forgive me for thinking I am the expert or authority as to what I'm suggesting wont you!?), what I'm "suggesting" is not at all that those self harming are not loved by their parents, "merely" that in a world where one loving parent can be dismissed as easily as I know we can, then it is fair to ask "Who loves those children who self harm"?, (as the answer could well be "an excluded parent loved them, but was prevented from showing them that love"!).

I've not read the rest of your post, and am not going to until I've given you an anecdote, or example of where decisions of what may be best for any particular child or fractured/broken family can be very perplexing, or difficult for anyone to decide, be they a family court expert, a judge or whoever else.

During my fathers/parents rights campaigning days, twenty years ago I attended a "Fathers For Justice" event (F4J) in central London, where besides the open top buses taking us parading all around in our Santa outfits, and for those prepared to do so, protest both outside and inside a government building that was the head quarters of the people working in our family court preparing reports as to whether a parent should see their child or not.

I wasn't prepared to break the law by entering the building so watched proceedings from outside, and an off duty police officer was the first to arrive on the scene and I introduced him to the organisers who reassured him the protest was going to be peaceful, and as a result the top management came down to meet the group who had entered their building and they spoke to them, or at least heard what they had to say. There was great celebrating by the assembled throng once everyone was outside again, "at this small success"!

Now the point of telling you all this, well at the end of the day all the buses delivered us to a bar or public house where some live music was laid on, and I got talking to one of the other fathers taking part in the protest, and I asked him what happened to result in his exclusion from his two children's lives(?).

He was very honest about what he had done, and he told me when he attended the last court hearing where judgement was made against him, he had punched the lady lawyer representing his ex-wife!

Now he was just a working man, who discovered he could no longer expect any contact with his two kids, and I dont know what punishment he was given for assaulting the professional lady in a court of law no less, but one imagines a large fine if not jail.

Obviously you and I are going to assume aren't we, that the lady lawyer was simply doing her job of representing what she'd been told by the mother was the best interests of those two children, and that all the evidence prior to this father becoming violent in court pointed to him being unfit to see his children, or at least it was not in their interests for him to do so, and by being violent he'd proved the soundness of the judges decision!

We'd all think that like that, there are far too many domestic abuse cases already, no way should such a man see his children, (though I've no knowledge at all as to whether he had ever been guilty of becoming violent to anyone before this instance, we'll assume he must have been shall we?).

However, lets just suppose this man's two children experience some difficulties later in their lives where they either self harm, or become obese, or whatever it might be, and lets just suppose contact with a loving committed dad could have helped prevent this, maybe because the "excesses of control by their mother/residential parent would have been slightly less all encompassing", (or she would not have been able to be quite as dominant in the children's lives), where does this leave us "do gooders", "people who think we must know best rather than the real/biological/loving dad"?

I'd say it leaves each of us slightly responsible for the anguish those kids suffered, "whilst we thought we were doing what was in their best interests"! :(
 
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Time for a musical interlude in this thread now perhaps:

"Perhaps Love"
(Lyrics by John Denver)

Perhaps love is like a resting place
A shelter from the storm
It exists to give you comfort
It is there to keep you warm
And in those times of trouble
When you are most alone
The memory of love will bring you home

Perhaps love is like a window
Perhaps an open door
It invites you to come closer
It wants to show you more
And even if you lose yourself
And don't know what to do
The memory of love will see you through

Oh, love to some is like a cloud
To some as strong as steel
For some a way of living
For some a way to feel
And some say love is holding on
And some say letting go
And some say love is everything
And some say they don't know

Perhaps love is like the ocean
Full of conflict, full of change
Like a fire when it's cold outside
Or thunder when it rains
If I should live forever
And all my dreams come true
My memories of love will be of you

 
Lavinia said:
grahamg seems to be suggesting that all people who self-harm are unloved, but this is not the case. Some have psychological problems, and do it to gain sympathy and attention.
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Graham is suggesting that children self-harm because their parents have divorced and the mother has custody. I didn't have to read his post to know that, because that is what Graham is always suggesting. I imagine Graham thinks global warming is happening because women get custody of children.

You know what Graham? When I got divorced my husband got full custody of my son. He had lied to me and said he found a lawyer who would serve both of us at once since we wanted joint custody and had no property to divide. At the court hearing it turned out the lawyer was only working for my husband, what he wanted was uncontested since I had no lawyer at all, and in a matter of seconds the divorce was granted and I lost custody of my ten year old son. I couldn't fight it because I had used the last bit of my savings paying for his lawyer. I was working at K-Mart making minimum wage and didn't even have a car or furniture for my little apartment.

We all have axes to grind. Get over it.
 
jimintoronto said:
IN my experience in the Ambulance business, I rarely saw a male cutter of any age. It was / and is a female thing. JimB.
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Not in my neck of the woods. I don't know if males cut as much as females do, but they definitely cut, too. Ambulances are rarely called. The people aren't trying to kill themselves and the cuts are usually shallow. Now, my info is anecdotal. It comes from having had 4 teenagers close in age and being around a lot of teenagers for several years.
 
Della said:
Graham is suggesting that children self-harm because their parents have divorced and the mother has custody. I didn't have to read his post to know that, because that is what Graham is always suggesting. I imagine Graham thinks global warming is happening because women get custody of children.

You know what Graham? When I got divorced my husband got full custody of my son. He had lied to me and said he found a lawyer who would serve both of us at once since we wanted joint custody and had no property to divide. At the court hearing it turned out the lawyer was only working for my husband, what he wanted was uncontested since I had no lawyer at all, and in a matter of seconds the divorce was granted and I lost custody of my ten year old son. I couldn't fight it because I had used the last bit of my savings paying for his lawyer. I was working at K-Mart making minimum wage and didn't even have a car or furniture for my little apartment.

We all have axes to grind. Get over it.
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If you don't mind Graham is only suggesting cutting off one parent from their child stops said parent being able to show their live for their child, (which includes trying to put them to the wise when they're behaving selfishly etc., etc.,), "AND NOTHING MORE", so please hold back on putting out false assertions, as I can't see you're achieving anything by it except adding to the confusion that exists in abundance!!!!!! :(
 
Pepper said:
@grahamg
"Time for a musical interlude in this thread now perhaps"
reminded me of Monty Python: And now for something completely different!"
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I'm not all that surprised this is what came to your mind but others might have noticed in the lyrics of the beautiful song I posted, many references to love and even those who say they dont know what love is, so there is a link you might have picked up on, if you weren't so ready to condemn others and live up to your forum name!

Still, no one's perfect, and I'm sure you wont feel bad about it anyway! :)
 
I don't know what the F you're talking about, but I have no reason to be antagonistic to you.
PS, I did not bother with the song, I rarely go to links or youtube, I only enjoyed your remark I quoted. Have a nice day.

PS again
My assessment of you is not condemnation, just observations.
 
jimintoronto said:
As a former Ambulance officer here in Toronto ,I saw this type of self mutilation in "mostly " young women. They tended to be attention seeking, and at odds with the rest of society. To sum it up they were playing the "look at me game ". I used to say that if you really want to die from blood loss, you should cut the brachial artery in the hollow of the elbow. The cutters don't want to die, they want an audience. JimB.
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The cutters I know or have known aren’t looking for attention. They’re ashamed of what they do and wear clothing to cover the scars. They don’t want to die. They just want to cope with the pain of strong emotions.

Physiologically, endorphins are released when we’re injured or stressed. Endorphins are neurotransmitters that act similarly to morphine and reduce the amount of pain we experience when we’re hurt. So when a person self-harms they’re looking for that endorphin high.
 
Remy said:
Who loves them? Who knows. But there are parents who claim to love their children but abuse them. What has happened in these people's lives only they really know.
Click to expand...

Grahamg 1st response:
"I didn't properly address your post a day or two ago, so will try again here.

The word "abuse" has I believe come to mean different things over the years, (I've even heard it postulated those of us found to have "not been acting in our child's best interests", because in the opinion of some court appointed "expert" we didn't take our children to interesting or enjoyable enough places during contact visits are somehow guilty of child abuse, farcical as that may sound to you perhaps?).

However, let's use the word "abuse" to mean what most ordinary people these days would think of as abuse, (in most of the UK a parent smacking their child but not leaving a mark is not guilty of abuse, but anything more than that and you're guilty, and of course there are a whole range of abuses some parents "even natural parents" are guilty of at times, though statistically I believe stepparents remain the greater risk here).

Above in one of my posts quoting various websites, mainly on the causes of obesity in young children, you will notice an expert examining the part the mother-child relationship plays in equality, without considering the father. Must charge battery now,............(Break)

Grahamg 2nd response:

You've chosen to highlight parents abusing their children.

I've an odd question for you, (lets call it a rhetorical question), how many children being abused by their natural/biological/real parents would there be compared to the numbers self harming, or showing signs other signs of psychological distress, (obviously some children will fit into both categories, but not all because I'm sure you dont wish to impugn forum members on this thread by saying that must be the most likely cause of self harming!)?

My focus here, in the OP and subsequently is to try to point out where social policies might be undermining decent fathers/parents, and potential pitfalls flowing from this situation.

You'll have seen how easy it has been for some to misrepresent what I've said, whilst trying to condemn me unfairly, who wont care in the least that they are misleading people, and I'd like you to try to consider how many decent parents/dads out their are facing this kind of thing, (often in a situation where they are being undermined as parents).

I think I've done all I can to try to answer your very succinct post, and yet there could be something more to be said about these two bits: "Who loves them? Who knows................,(Break),..., What has happened in these people's lives only they really know".
 
grahamg said:
Both her arms were dreadfully scarred, (no open wounds, but probably could have had no other cause than "self harm").

We hear a lot about pandemics, and epidemics dont we nowadays, (not half!), but the incidence of self harm here is alarming I believe, especially amongst young girls,
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That 1st. part was your guess, a reasonable guess but still only a guess. Seems odd to me that what you describe wasn't covered up by long sleeves.

Then there is what you consider alarming. From various bits about self harm I've seen most try to conceal self harm. Parents typically are the last to know or at least in what I've seen. The alarming increase you say is happening, my guess would be rejection in some form on social media. Being able to show self harm for attention may play into this.
 

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