The right to die..
- Thread starter Capt Lightning
- Start date
My personal experience was watching my mother die, a year or so before she died she wrote a letter to editor on this subject.
Being an ex Army nurse and from a medical family she was able to bullsh!t her way out of hospital until they finally cottoned to her. On her final admission she was told that if she was released from hospital she was going in to high care and not back to her unit. She was also diagnosed with septicemia and refused the prescribed antibiotics which hastened her demise. The Geriatricians respected her wishes and treated her for pain and nausea, she passed peacefully in my company. She lived and died as she wanted, and on her terms alone, apart from the fact that she was refused a terminal dose of morphine.
Being an ex Army nurse and from a medical family she was able to bullsh!t her way out of hospital until they finally cottoned to her. On her final admission she was told that if she was released from hospital she was going in to high care and not back to her unit. She was also diagnosed with septicemia and refused the prescribed antibiotics which hastened her demise. The Geriatricians respected her wishes and treated her for pain and nausea, she passed peacefully in my company. She lived and died as she wanted, and on her terms alone, apart from the fact that she was refused a terminal dose of morphine.
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Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Dying with dignity is a process that's been legalized so it's unlikely that a three word phrase will be in any traditional dictionary. ( I looked, there's nothing that comes up). What so many ignore is the context of either sort of dying. Context is everything.
Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Not for 27 year old Adam - 'No cure': Young Ont. man wants mental illness included in assisted-dying law
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
What? Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? I merely defined suicide. Your criminal 'dying with dignity' is beneath contempt, does not even exist for me. Go ahead, run with it, you will anyway --but kindly permit me my disapproval.
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
What a load of horse manure.
Trish
VIP OAP
That's an interesting link @Debrah N.
From the link: Mental Health advocates are against assisted dying for the mentally ill, stating that most psychiatric disorders can be treated with proper, accessible care.
I have embolden what I think is a point worth considering because, the article also points out that mental health funding represents only 7% of the national health budget in Canada, compared to 10-11% in many other industrialised countries. This seems to suggest that care for the mentally ill is underfunded and, I think, on that premise, it is fair to question whether, with more resources available, people like Adam could be better helped to live rather than allowed to die.
In the case of a mentally ill patient there is always the concern as to whether the person has the mental capacity to make a life ending decision. We can read Adam's account which seems well thought out but, of course, the testimony of one person does not mean that all patients suffering from some form of mental illness will have the same ability to make an informed decision to end their lives.
I am not suggesting that you and others who have a different opinion from mine are wrong, my position is that I see things in a different way and, particularly when we are talking about people who are often vulnerable because of their poor mental health.
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Yes you disapprove - I think we all get that.
and yes others of us will continue to run with the discussion - everyone else has done so without contemptuous or personal remarks.
I agree mental health services are under funded and much can be done to improve outcomes for people.
However I am in agreement with conditions of VAD here which do not include any sort of mental illness - they don't include other chronic illnesses either , unless progressive and in terminal phase
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
Yes, I am ashamed of myself.Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Mental health services are underfunded across the country. But in Adam's case, he'd been in treatment for years, and no medical doctor or psychiatrist had found anything that showed disease or disruption and he continued to suffer horrible, debilitating burning pain in his whole body. He had tried every treatment he could find. Should he be condemned to spend the next 60 years in absolute agony? Think of the worst pain you've ever had, that had you helpless on. the floor and in agony and then think of 60 years of that. That's what he had to look forward to.
Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
I don't think you and I are in a position to determine how severe a person's mental or physical suffering is. But when you apply for MAID, I believe that the criteria includes that you have to show that you've tried all the available treatments and counselling to find relief in any other way. No one can simply get up feeling kind of lousy and decide today, that it's a good day to die.
In every instance, those folks have to be of sound enough mind that they can assent to what they've requested on that day, except in the case of Alzheimers, where they have to have in place, signed and witnessed, a document that specifies when 'they become disabled to their chosen point of suffering (i.e. they no longer recognize any family for example, or when they have to be diapered and are in bed all day), that they be allowed to pass on. At least that has been the stated desire of those who've worked to change the laws to prevent the kind of suffering that Adam experienced.
Prolonged life with endless suffering is not living.
It's an upside down world Downunder, the Liberals are the conservatives.:
Yes I appreciate that - but I still agree with the limitations we have on VAD here and that does not include chronic mental illness - or any chronic illness unless progressive and terminal stage.
It is for people who are at the dying stage of an illness, not people who find an illness difficult to cope with.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
I'm surprised at how many people are super-confident no tragedies will occur, no coercion, no "mistakes" because of "processes" and rules. As though there are any processes and rules man has ever devised that hasn't been circumvented. Sometimes our best intentions are turned against us. But the certainty some have over a defined set of steps is still amazing to me.
Trish
VIP OAP
I have never claimed to be in a position to determine anything, I simply have an opinion, much like anyone else on this forum. Nor have I ever said that anyone could "simply get up feeling kind of lousy and decide today, that it's a good day to die".
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Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
I guess that's my impression then of so many folks reluctance to accept dying with dignity. A fear that it's too easy and that there are no limitations or safeguards. Sorry if you don't fall into that group and I misunderstood.
I am confident the processes we have in place here safeguard against mistakes.
Not sure what you mean by super confident - I accept nothing is totally fool proof - but that also isn't a reason not to implement something
You set in place checks and controls and limitations and you review them - you don't say this isnt foolproof so we will not allow it at all.
that goes for anything really.
Trish
VIP OAP
I have no issue with people who are terminally ill having the right to refuse treatment which, anyone in the UK can currently do. "If you have the capacity, you have the right to refuse any medical treatment. This is so even if the treatment is necessary to save your life. You can also make an Advance Decision, formerly known as a Living Will, that records any treatment you want to refuse".
As well as a patient having the right to ask for treatment to stop, a UK doctor can also decide to withdraw treatment "if the patient is dying and the treatment is not one to ease suffering".
In my own experience, I know that doctors already discuss with the patient and/or their family members (whichever is the more appropriate) the care, the continuation of care and what the patient (or the family if the patient is not able to express a wish) would want the medical team to do should the patient reach a point where to continue treatment or take action to prolong the life of a terminally ill patient would be pointless and unkind.
I see no point in continuing to have this discussion so, I will wish you a good day and hope we can converse again but on a less emotive subject.
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Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
I have no issue with people who are terminally ill having the right to refuse treatment which, anyone in the UK can currently do. "If you have the capacity, you have the right to refuse any medical treatment. This is so even if the treatment is necessary to save your life. You can also make an Advance Decision, formerly known as a Living Will, that records any treatment you want to refuse".
As well as a patient having the right to ask for treatment to stop, a UK doctor can also decide to withdraw treatment "if the patient is dying and the treatment is not one to ease suffering".
In my own experience, I know that doctors already discuss with the patient and/or their family members (whichever is the more appropriate) the care, the continuation of care and what the patient (or the family if the patient is not able to express a wish) would want the medical team to do should the patient reach a point where to continue treatment or take action to prolong the life of a terminally ill patient would be pointless and unkind.
I see no point in continuing to have this discussion so, I will wish you a good day and hope we can converse again but on a less emotive subject.
The good news is, no one will force you to do that and if I come down with some horrible disease that is killing me by millimetres, I can get the help that I would prefer to receive. And maybe if I'm ever diagnosed with Alzheimer's and my brain is turning to Swiss cheese, I'll be able to sign a document one day that allows me to move on when I can't recognize the people I love or the things that made my life a joy and worthwhile. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I hope you have a nice day Trish.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Hm. The fact that some want to play semantics, and not just accept that this suicide, says a lot. I mean, admitting it's suicide shouldn't diminish their point of view given the circumstances. Yet they want to bend over backwards to deny what this is. Why?
I'm not sure who you are referring to here but there's a world of difference between suicide and assisted dying. Assisted dying is applicable when a person is terminally ill, they are dying and it's the time line which changes, not the outcome. Suicide is intentionally causing one's own death.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Hm, that's a distinction without a difference, isn't it? I mean, we're not lawyers here, we're concerned with outcome. It's been mentioned here previously, but the very definition of "suicide" is "the act of killing yourself intentionally". How is that different from so called "assisted living"? If you're willingly taking an action that you know will end your life, it's suicide. No?
What different here is context. But fundamentally, it's the same thing. I'm not saying that should sway anyone's opinion on the topic, but it seems to me some want to hide what's really going on here.
Trish
VIP OAP
I had a moment of "I didn't say that!" when I read your post but, of course, you were quoting @gruntlabor not me!
Voluntary assisted dying is more of a choice than an act. I'm referencing this in the context of Australian law. It could be an advanced directive made before incapacitation or it could be a choice made after being diagnosed as terminally ill.
There's a huge difference between someone who is not physically terminally ill taking their own life and someone who is terminally ill calling it quits before the bitter end. To say that allowing the terminally an early exit from the mortal coil is dying by suicide is disingenuous at best.
There's a huge difference between someone who is not physically terminally ill taking their own life and someone who is terminally ill calling it quits before the bitter end. To say that allowing the terminally an early exit from the mortal coil is dying by suicide is disingenuous at best.