The Toronto Police Service Cold Case unit has solved another one. Link below.

J

jimintoronto

Well-known Member
This case dates from 1983, and it was a double homicide. The accused person has been arrested way up in far northern Ontario about a thousand miles from Toronto. The TPS held a news conference at 10 AM today, to advise the public of the details of the case. Here is the link to that news conference. Once again, the cold case investigators worked backwards from sites like 23 and Me, and Ancestry. com to narrow the search down to one individual. Toronto Police announce arrest in cold case homicides #28/1983, Susan Tice, 45, and #48/1983, Erin Gilmour, 22 Joseph George Sutherland, 61 (tps.ca)

I remember those 2 cases from 1983, when I was an Auxiliary Constable with Toronto Police Service. The saving grace in this case was that the original crime scene technicians did such a good job of collecting and then preserving the evidence, that it could still be used in the 21st century. Toronto Police are a leading innovator in forensic science investigations. The accused will be held without bail, pending a first degree murder trial in 2023. JImB.
 

Alligatorob said:
Good for the Toronto Police, well done.

Now can the Canadian judiciary keep them in jail?
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Given the severity of the 2 murders which were a few months apart in 1983, and the rock solid forensic evidence that will be presented by the Crown attorney, a conviction is just about assured. Both charges are first degree murder, so at the very least the subject is looking at 25 years . He is now age 61, so if you add 25, he will be at least 86 at the end of the first sentence. Given that there are 2 victims in this case, the Justice and the jury will have no problem with a multiple sentence in this case. Canada no longer has capital punishment ( since 1972 ) but we do have mandatory sentences for murder. JimB.
 
jimintoronto said:
Given the severity of the 2 murders which were a few months apart in 1983, and the rock solid forensic evidence that will be presented by the Crown attorney, a conviction is just about assured. Both charges are first degree murder, so at the very least the subject is looking at 25 years . He is now age 61, so if you add 25, he will be at least 86 at the end of the first sentence. Given that there are 2 victims in this case, the Justice and the jury will have no problem with a multiple sentence in this case. Canada no longer has capital punishment ( since 1972 ) but we do have mandatory sentences for murder. JimB.
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That's as pathetic as U.S. justice.
It's bad enough that he got away with 2 murders for 40 years, but he may also live outside of prison.
 
Knight said:
Maybe that catch will show up on a future episode of a Canadian crime show on HULU.
https://www.hulu.com/series/crime-beat-35d925ab-f525-4d1c-8ea7-e962f4e8a14a
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That program is produced by the Global TV Network here in Canada, using video from their national news division, and fill in interviews with the lead investigators in the case. Most of the episodes are about cases that happened more than 10 years ago. Some parts are re-enactments using period vehicles and actors playing the part of Police officers who are now ( mostly ) retired. Canadian Police Services are somewhat reluctant to let serving officers get involved in TV productions. Those that have retired will STILL have to get specific written permission from their Chief, and have the scripts approved before any interviews are filmed. Laws in Canada about libel and or slander are much tougher than in the USA, hence the caution by Police Services.

I think you may like this off beat no holds barred documentary produced by the TVO network. TVO is an arm of the Ontario Government's Department of Education. The program is called "Coppers " which is what Canadian cops call themselves when talking to each other in private. This program is a very enlightening look behind the public persona of cops in Canada, and in particular the Greater Toronto Area. I was an Auxiliary Constable with the Toronto Police Service for about ten years, in the 70's and 80's. AS such I was privy to some of the insider goings on at TPS, but not everything, of course. link. Coppers (feature version) | TVO Today

One of my very long term Cop buddies was a guy named Don Kidder, who served for 21 years with TPS, rising to Staff Sgt of Detectives, then going up north to be a Chief of Police, first at Red Lake, then Terrance Bay, and finally at the City of Pembroke, a total of 42 years of service. I learned a lot of street stuff from Don, who at one led the TPS gang intelligence unit. He was also involved with the Ontario Provincial Police biker enforcement team. He died in 2019. JimB.
 
Here is further information from today's Toronto Police Service cold case press interview. The accused was living in Toronto in 1983, when these 2 murders took place. Now that he has been arrested and charged with 2 counts of first degree murder, his recently taken DNA sample will be compared to any other unsolved cases in all of Canada. Who knows what that will turn up ? Link. Man charged in connection with 2 cold case homicides in Toronto from 1983: police | Globalnews.ca JimB.
 
Excellent, the CMP are admired from afar, by me.

When ever I read about DNA solving a crime that was
committed 30, 40, or 50 years ago, I wonder why DNA
information is not shared Globally, I am quite sure that
only the guilty would argue against such a suggestion.

Mike
 
Ask any cop out there what the most difficult crime is to solve and the majority will tell you homicides can be very difficult to solve. The first 48 hours after a homicide is committed are the most important time to collect evidence, take witness statements, knock on doors and check the computer for like MO’s.

It’s surprising how difficult it is to get people to give up information. If I knock on a door and someone answers, I ask them, “Did you hear or see anything suspicious or out of the ordinary last night. Probably 90% of the time, the answer is “No.”

I don’t have a number, but here in the U.S. many cold cases have been resolved thanks to DNA. I have always hated the idea of people who have committed a murder or murders at 25 y/o and get to walk around for 30-40 years before they are found out using DNA. That’s not true justice.
 
Alligatorob said:
For sure, but its a whole lot better than never coming to justice.
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Really? Talk to the families. Most say they are grateful that Justice was being served finally, but just too late to take away their better days. One mom told the Prosecutor that her 22 y/o son had just graduated college and was out celebrating when him and his friend were robbed, beaten and killed. It took 43 years to arrest the culprits, two of them, both were 66 y/o. The mom later said that’s not Justice served. They got to live out their best years.
 
911 said:
Ask any cop out there what the most difficult crime is to solve and the majority will tell you homicides can be very difficult to solve. The first 48 hours after a homicide is committed are the most important time to collect evidence, take witness statements, knock on doors and check the computer for like MO’s.

It’s surprising how difficult it is to get people to give up information. If I knock on a door and someone answers, I ask them, “Did you hear or see anything suspicious or out of the ordinary last night. Probably 90% of the time, the answer is “No.”

I don’t have a number, but here in the U.S. many cold cases have been resolved thanks to DNA. I have always hated the idea of people who have committed a murder or murders at 25 y/o and get to walk around for 30-40 years before they are found out using DNA. That’s not true justice.
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I get that you are talking about your Police experience in the USA. Here in Canada, in a murder investigation the public are MUCH more likely to talk at their door to Homicide investigators, they will also light up the TIPS line, too. Toronto Police Service has a 58 person Homicide and Cold Case unit, and each of the 17 Divisions have a mobile support unit of 22 investigators, who can be added to any murder case that occurred in their Division. Other units such as Accident Investigations, Gang Unit, Repeat Offenders Unit, and Fugitive Unit can be tapped for intelligence and on the ground support.

In this 40 year old case from 1983, the forensic techs did a great job of securing and preserving the physical scene evidence. Being the largest city in Canada the TPS has the budget and the storage facilities to be able to hold massive amounts of evidence materials. When I was an Auxiliary Constable back in the 1980's I was involved in the neighbourhood canvas for both of these incidents which occurred 4 months apart. Both cases were in residential parts of the city, and the community response was outstanding in terms of information received.

The subject now under arrest was 22 at that time, a First Nations kid from a small isolated reserve about 800 miles north of Toronto. He lived in Toronto for 2 years, then he went back north, and he has lived in the same place since then. 40 years later the Cold Case unit was able to reverse engineer the original forensic evidence and come up with generational DNA information, and narrow it down to one family, and then one individual in that family.

Given the rock solid DNA evidence and the fact that the subject was living in Toronto during the time period of the incidents, I think the Crown will be able to secure a guilty verdict on the 2 charges of first degree murder. If the subject is convicted of 2 counts of first degree murder, he will be sentenced to a minimum of 25 years in prison. Given that the subject is now 61 years old, he will be 86 when he MAY be able to seek parole, or not. Another cold case solved by TPS. The sign at the entrance to their office reads " We NEVER quit ". The second motto is "Deeds Not Words ". JimB.
 
Mike said:
Excellent, the CMP are admired from afar, by me.

When ever I read about DNA solving a crime that was
committed 30, 40, or 50 years ago, I wonder why DNA
information is not shared Globally, I am quite sure that
only the guilty would argue against such a suggestion.

Mike
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The financial cost of "sharing DNA world wide " would be a huge amount. In reality, sending DNA information from Canada ( for example ) to New Zealand, or India, would be a waste of money UNLESS there was a solid investigative lead that a subject MIGHT be living there. If there is a solid lead, the DNA profile can be sent electronically in seconds using the internet. In Europe there might be a method of sharing DNA information between the EU countries . JimB.
 
jimintoronto said:
I get that you are talking about your Police experience in the USA. Here in Canada, in a murder investigation the public are MUCH more likely to talk at their door to Homicide investigators, they will also light up the TIPS line, too. Toronto Police Service has a 58 person Homicide and Cold Case unit, and each of the 17 Divisions have a mobile support unit of 22 investigators, who can be added to any murder case that occurred in their Division. Other units such as Accident Investigations, Gang Unit, Repeat Offenders Unit, and Fugitive Unit can be tapped for intelligence and on the ground support.

In this 40 year old case from 1983, the forensic techs did a great job of securing and preserving the physical scene evidence. Being the largest city in Canada the TPS has the budget and the storage facilities to be able to hold massive amounts of evidence materials. When I was an Auxiliary Constable back in the 1980's I was involved in the neighbourhood canvas for both of these incidents which occurred 4 months apart. Both cases were in residential parts of the city, and the community response was outstanding in terms of information received.

The subject now under arrest was 22 at that time, a First Nations kid from a small isolated reserve about 800 miles north of Toronto. He lived in Toronto for 2 years, then he went back north, and he has lived in the same place since then. 40 years later the Cold Case unit was able to reverse engineer the original forensic evidence and come up with generational DNA information, and narrow it down to one family, and then one individual in that family.

Given the rock solid DNA evidence and the fact that the subject was living in Toronto during the time period of the incidents, I think the Crown will be able to secure a guilty verdict on the 2 charges of first degree murder. If the subject is convicted of 2 counts of first degree murder, he will be sentenced to a minimum of 25 years in prison. Given that the subject is now 61 years old, he will be 86 when he MAY be able to seek parole, or not. Another cold case solved by TPS. The sign at the entrance to their office reads " We NEVER quit ". The second motto is "Deeds Not Words ". JimB.
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Good for Canada, but we don’t always have a single homicide to investigate. Our police departments deal with multiple homicides in a single weekend. In the last few years, several police departments have lost officers for different reasons putting more pressure on fewer investigators.
 
911 said:
Good for Canada, but we don’t always have a single homicide to investigate. Our police departments deal with multiple homicides in a single weekend. In the last few years, several police departments have lost officers for different reasons putting more pressure on fewer investigators.
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Toronto sees about 90 murders a year. Jimb.
 

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