There are two basics facts which need to be accepted.

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Pepper said:
Are sex and gender the same?

Summary. Sex and gender are different concepts that are often used interchangeably. The UK government refers to sex as being biologically defined, and gender as a social construct that is an internal sense of self, whether an individual sees themselves as a man or a woman, or another gender identity.Feb 21, 2019

What is the difference between sex and gender? - Office for ...​

https://www.ons.gov.uk › economy › articles › whatisth...
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(I've just reread my post and it's coming out a little sharp, which I don't intend. Apologies for that, @Pepper.)

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363#sex
Above is a very thorough explanation on this subject. To wit:

"People often use the terms “sex” and “gender” interchangeably, but this is incorrect. Sex and gender are different, and it is crucial to understand why.

“Sex” refers to the physical differences between people who are male, female, or intersex. A person typically has their sex assigned at birth based on physiological characteristics, including their *******ia and chromosome composition. This assigned sex is called a person’s “natal sex.”

Gender, on the other hand, involves how a person identifies. Unlike natal sex, gender is not made up of binary forms. Instead, gender is a broad spectrum. A person may identify at any point within this spectrum or outside of it entirely.

People may identify with genders that are different from their natal sex or with none at all. These identities may include transgender, nonbinary, or gender-neutral. There are many other ways in which a person may define their own gender.

Gender also exists as social constructs — as gender “roles” or “norms.” These are definedTrusted Source as the socially constructed roles, behaviors, and attributes that a society considers appropriate for men and women."
 

chic said:
That's true. But a biological male should not be allowed to compete against biological women in sports no matter how much we relate to his plight.
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That is a conundrum. I like the solution @Alligatorob came up with regarding bringing the question of who competes against whom down to the xx, xy level. It seems cold in some sense but also clean and fair.

Further, (I've already mentioned this I know), there's the question of whether hormone therapy would be considered doping in sports.
 

Life is complicated enough without adding the confusing notion of a person who is XY thinking he is truly a female.
Look at this way. Just suppose a XY male believes himself to be female. One day he is out hiking in a wilderness area and he trips and falls off a cliff. His body is not found for several decades. The coroner eventually gets the body and in an attempt to identify him, the coroner runs a genetic test. The results come back as MALE. So, who is right ? The coroner or the dead man who once identified himself as female ?
It seems to me that gender identification is a mental construct. Everyone knows full well that some people have serious mental issues. A persons belief is not necessarily correct.
 
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senior chef said:
Life is complicated enough without adding the confusing notion of a person who is XY thinking he is truly a female.
Look at this way. Just suppose a XY male believes himself to be female. One day he is out hiking in a wilderness area and he trips and falls off a cliff. His body is not found for several decades. The coroner eventually gets the body and in an attempt to identify him, the coroner runs a genetic test. The results come back as MALE. So, who is right ? The coroner or the dead man who once identified himself as female ?
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I understand where you are coming from, but I would hope after all the genetic tests were completed and the identity of the said person was made that the next of kin would have been contacted and they would clear all of that up and whatever the wishes of the deceased person would be granted.
 
senior chef said:
Life is complicated enough without adding the confusing notion of a person who is XY thinking he is truly a female.
Look at this way. Just suppose a XY male believes himself to be female. One day he is out hiking in a wilderness area and he trips and falls off a cliff. His body is not found for several decades. The coroner eventually gets the body and in an attempt to identify him, the coroner runs a genetic test. The results come back as MALE. So, who is right ? The coroner or the dead man who once identified himself as female ?
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We have covered this issue quite thoroughly; gender can and often is changed, sex, down to the chromosomel level, cannot be changed.

As regards your example scenario... who cares? The person is dead. Unless, as @Silent Rose mentions, there is an issue with family and I agree with her in that that would be cleared up by them.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but truly want to understand what are you trying to add to the conversation with this? What is the point you are driving at here?
 
Medusa said:
We have covered this issue quite thoroughly; gender can and often is changed, sex, down to the chromosomel level, cannot be changed.

As regards your example scenario... who cares? The person is dead. Unless, as @Silent Rose mentions, there is an issue with family and I agree with her in that that would be cleared up by them.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but truly want to understand what are you trying to add to the conversation with this? What is the point you are driving at here?
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My point is quite simple. An XY person is MALE. Period ! No matter what he may think.
A XX person is FEMALE. Period ! No matter what she thinks.
 
senior chef said:
It is quite common for people to think, and truly believe that they are absolutely correct in their thinking.
However,

My point is quite simple. An XY person is MALE. Period ! No matter what he may think.
A XX person is female. Period ! No matter what she thinks.
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Yes, as I've mentioned, we've covered that here quite thoroughly. That's why I asked; I was wondering if there was some further point your were trying to make. The chromosome issue has been accepted within the conversation.
 
chic said:
a biological male should not be allowed to compete against biological women in sports no matter how much we relate to his plight.
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I think there are lots of sports where mixing sexes would not be a problem. We should probably do more of it.

There are lots of genetically based physical reasons why some of us are better at athletic games than others. For example at 5' 7" I never had a shot at being in the NBA, fair? Maybe not but no one expects this to be corrected. Don't see Olympic or professional leagues for the short...
Medusa said:
I like the solution @Alligatorob came up with regarding bringing the question of who competes against whom down to the xx, xy level. It seems cold in some sense but also clean and fair.
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Thanks Medusa, but I believe there are similar fairly simple solutions to a lot of our political issues. It just requires compromise, both side accepting somethings they don't want to get somethings they do. Problem is few people support these compromises as they don't fully satisfy either side.
senior chef said:
Life is complicated enough without adding the confusing notion of a person who is XY thinking he is truly a female.
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I also don't understand why a person would want to do that, but the people who are involved do. And I don't see it as much of my business to get involved with someone else's desires. Not so long as they don't hurt other people.
senior chef said:
The results come back as MALE. So, who is right ? The coroner or the dead man who once identified himself as female ?
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Who cares?
 
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Medusa said:
Gender, on the other hand, involves how a person identifies. Unlike natal sex, gender is not made up of binary forms. Instead, gender is a broad spectrum. A person may identify at any point within this spectrum or outside of it entirely.
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A pear might think it's an apple, but a pear is a pear, not an apple.
A male might think he's a female, but that doesn't change that he's a male, not a female.

Only completely XX females should be allowed to compete with other XX females.
XY males should NOT be allowed to compete with females, not ever, regardless whatever delusions they have.
A person might change their gender, but that doesn't change what they are, and it doesn't change what I think they are.

@Medusa, of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women.
And because of that, I don't care about them. Late to the party, are you afraid I missed one of your numerous postings. :giggle:
 
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John cycling said:
A pear might think it's an apple, but a pear is a pear, not an apple.
A male might think he's a female, but that doesn't change that he's a male, not a female.

Only completely XX females should be allowed to compete with other XX females.
XY males should NOT be allowed to compete with females, not ever, regardless whatever delusions they have.
A person might change their gender, but that doesn't change what they are, and it doesn't change what I think they are.
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We've been over this. You're late to the party.

I doubt the people to whom you are referring care what you think they are.

(I do like the terms "XY Males" and "XX Females," however. It would seem they might be useful if the need to differentiate to that level became necessary, as in cases like the sports situation or even @senior chef's, analogy. It lends respect to the feelings and position of the transgender person, taking into account that they are/identify as, say, a female, but are technically an XY Male.)
 
@Alligatorob said, "Thanks Medusa, but I believe there are similar fairly simple solutions to a lot of our political issues. It just requires compromise, both side accepting somethings they don't want to get somethings they do. Problem is few people support these compromises as they don't fully satisfy either side."

This called to mind a line from a political negotiations scene from Star Trek Enterprise, which so as not to side track the conversation, while it's a struggle, I will spare you all. ;)
 
Medusa said:
We've been over this. You're late to the party.

I doubt the people to whom you are referring care what you think they are.

(I do like the terms "XY Males" and "XX Females," however. It would seem they might be useful if the need to differentiate to that level became necessary, as in cases like the sports situation or even @senior chef's, analogy. It lends respect to the feelings and position of the transgender person, taking into account that they are/identify as, say, a female, but are technically an XY Male.)
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That is the thing. People who go through gender transition have very strong feelings about who they feel they are and also go through a lot of therapy as well before they complete the transitioning process. So you are 100% correct that they do not care that others may think that a trans person actually is not who they say they really are.
 
Medusa said:
We've been over this. You're late to the party.

I doubt the people to whom you are referring care what you think they are.

(I do like the terms "XY Males" and "XX Females," however. It would seem they might be useful if the need to differentiate to that level became necessary, as in cases like the sports situation or even @senior chef's, analogy. It lends respect to the feelings and position of the transgender person, taking into account that they are/identify as, say, a female, but are technically an XY Male.)
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The scientific community has known since at least 1959 that there are more gender determinant chromosomal patterns than XY and XX, plus some babies are born with ambiguous *******ia.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-mixed-sex-biology/

IMHO, people should be free to claim the gender they're comfortable with. That's not to say it would be fair for them to choose a gender for sports competitions.
 
John cycling said:
A pear might think it's an apple, but a pear is a pear, not an apple.
A male might think he's a female, but that doesn't change that he's a male, not a female.

Only completely XX females should be allowed to compete with other XX females.
XY males should NOT be allowed to compete with females, not ever, regardless whatever delusions they have.
A person might change their gender, but that doesn't change what they are, and it doesn't change what I think they are.

@Medusa, of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women.
And because of that, I don't care about them. Late to the party, are you afraid I missed one of your numerous postings. :giggle:
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"@Medusa, of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women.
And because of that, I don't care about them. Late to the party, are you afraid I missed one of your numerous postings. "

I'm going to respond to this and then let it drop because it's coming periously close to personal attack and I'm not going there. To that end, I did not mean to offend you and if I have, I apologize.

As regards this: "...of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women...."
No one said that "they" don't care about anyone else or about women. I don't know where you're getting this. It doesn't even make sense, to be honest.

And this, "And because of that, I don't care about them." Again, I doubt they are concerned.

What you can do about my postings is not read them. As we are so far apart on this subject, I will do you the same courtesy and in doing so hopefully avoid any unnecessary, unkind words exchanged in future.
 
I have seen a few documentaries about transexual people who have gone from male to female. Even after hormone replacement therapy and facial reconstruction, many of them still look very manly and are constantly bullied for that, but they have said they still feel better about themselves than they did prior to the transition. I may not understand it, but I have tremendous respect for anyone who feels strongly enough about something to make a decision that may affect them for the rest of their lives. For those who are interested, here is a clip of celebrities who have transitioned. Some look amazing.

 
dseag2 said:
I have seen a few documentaries about transexual people who have gone from male to female. Even after hormone replacement therapy and facial reconstruction, many of them still look very manly and are constantly bullied for that, but they have said they still feel better about themselves than they did prior to the transition. I may not understand it, but I have tremendous respect for anyone who feels strongly enough about something to make a decision that may affect them for the rest of their lives. For those who are interested, here is a clip of celebrities who have transitioned. Some look amazing.

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I had no idea there were that many transgender celebs and some of them have made amazing transformations! As long as they're happy; which they have every right to be. :)
 
Medusa said:
"@Medusa, of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women.
And because of that, I don't care about them. Late to the party, are you afraid I missed one of your numerous postings. "

I'm going to respond to this and then let it drop because it's coming periously close to personal attack and I'm not going there. To that end, I did not mean to offend you and if I have, I apologize.

As regards this: "...of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women...."
No one said that "they" don't care about anyone else or about women. I don't know where you're getting this. It doesn't even make sense, to be honest.

And this, "And because of that, I don't care about them." Again, I doubt they are concerned.

What you can do about my postings is not read them. As we are so far apart on this subject, I will do you the same courtesy and in doing so hopefully avoid any unnecessary, unkind words exchanged in future.
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You are so kind. I would have had a different response. ;) Yes, best not to read any of his posts. At least I got his political post deleted (which he said wasn't political) so there's one less nasty post to create arguments in the forum.

Hope all is okay with you these days. I've been thinking about you!
 
Jan14 said:
I wonder how many people that have a hard time accepting that some people have gender/ethnicity issues, may become a whole lot more understand IF it were their child or grandchild. Things become real when it’s someone you love.
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Great point. That is pretty much the case with everything... race, religion, sexual preference, etc. There is always prejudice until you actually get to know someone or have them in your family.
 

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