"This is your real father", (what should be said to children asserting otherwise)

[grahamg]

This thread is intended for a very kind new member to read, who concerns herself about my welfare as an excluded father, and divorcee, (so no need for others unlikely to welcome my starting another thread on this topic to respond!).

I believe children, "at any age" should be told the following, if they assert, (or behave), as though someone other than this kind of man is their "real father".

Quote:
"He planned a family with your mother long before they were married to one another"!

"He found it within himself to show love and commitment towards you for many years, even after the marriage disintegrated for reasons outside his control"!

"He did not doubt he was your father, and hence is unique and irreplaceable in that regard, (as much as your mother is irreplaceable using the same criteria)"!

"When being usurped as a husband and then as a father by someone motivated to keep themselves in your mothers good books, he did not abandon you, nor did he allow any new partner he found, (or their children), to take over your place in his life, or interfere with your relationship and contact with him in any way"!

"Anyone judging him as a father does not love you as he does, hence their right to judge you should be constrained, and they shouldn't be allowed to assume they know better than he, what may be in your interests, and what should be said to you when you speak disloyally about your loving father"!

" Many children have fathers/parents who do not love them for whatever reason, or are unable to find sufficient love within themselves, and those children suffer as a result, "a law protecting your right to be heard in court proceedings, should not cause more potentially loving fathers/parents to abandon their interests in their own children because they feel they cannot win against such a legal system""!

"This man is your real father whatever anyone ever says to the contrary, (including yourself), and no one has the right or power to saw otherwise without just cause, and the English language does not need to be changed to pander to any feelings you might express on this subject, so whether you like it or not"!

"By denying this man who is your real father any recognition you may automatically cut off your children from a loving grandparent"!

"These are the things this state believes anyone acting on its behalf should be saying to any child they encounter in your circumstances"!

(please note I am serious about not wishing to stir up those likely to respond negatively to this thread, so please feel free to ignore it, because it isn't intended for you!)

 

[Blessed]

I would guess you are speaking to me. I have been open and honest in other discussions to you.

I would say in your circumstance you were treated unfairly through no fault of your own or the child in question. Your wife handed out the greatest vindictive punishment SHE could come up with. What she did not and does not understand that she is responsible for a great injury to her child. This is the way of some parents that harbor ill intent to the spouse they have decided to discard.

I can't understand why an adult could be so cruel that they would harm their own child in order to make their ex suffer. The child will suffer all their life. Unable to trust, be committed, in the truest sense of the word when they are an adult.

It is possible that someday, this grown adult child will see how they were manipulated by said parent and turn their back to that parent. There is always hope that the child will see the light at some point and try to build a relationship with the parent that was cast aside. I have seen it happen. I would suggest the mistreated parent keep in contact with the child. If only a Christmas card, wish them a Happy Christmas and sign love Dad. That is all, don't bring up the past, don't talk ill of the other parent. This will let them know you loved them then, and love them now. That is all you can do. You will at least let them know you have always loved them. At this point it has nothing to do with the other parent, it is up to the child to see the light.

 

[grahamg]

I would guess you are speaking to me. I have been open and honest in other discussions to you.
I would say in your circumstance you were treated unfairly through no fault of your own or the child in question. Your wife handed out the greatest vindictive punishment SHE could come up with. What she did not and does not understand that she is responsible for a great injury to her child. This is the way of some parents that harbor ill intent to the spouse they have decided to discard.

I can't understand why an adult could be so cruel that they would harm their own child in order to make their ex suffer. The child will suffer all their life. Unable to trust, be committed, in the truest sense of the word when they are an adult.

It is possible that someday, this grown adult child will see how they were manipulated by said parent and turn their back to that parent. There is always hope that the child will see the light at some point and try to build a relationship with the parent that was cast aside. I have seen it happen. I would suggest the mistreated parent keep in contact with the child. If only a Christmas card, wish them a Happy Christmas and sign love Dad. That is all, don't bring up the past, don't talk ill of the other parent. This will let them know you loved them then, and love them now. That is all you can do. You will at least let them know you have always loved them. At this point it has nothing to do with the other parent, it is up to the child to see the light.

"Well picked up on", and thank you for your very kind and thoughtful response once again.
In defence of my ex.,(why defend someone who has indeed done many of the things you've described), she was the "better parent"! So she was confident in herself, loving towards our child, and 100% the right parent of the two to bring up our child, and for someone who does not believe in "shared care",(or 50%:50% care, because in my view it deprives the child of even one parent being a constant presence in their life following divorce), who is the better parent is obviously crucial to the whole equation!

 

[Blessed]

Who can say who was or could have been a better parent, if both are not allowed to parent. Both love the child and should have the child's best interest at heart. The best interest of a child is to know both of their parents. I speak, because I know, my father died when I was three. I was lucky enough to be able to see my Grandparents and Uncle's family once a year on vacation. Those visits were the highlight of my childhood.

A child should never should be torn between parents but given the chance to receive the love and guidance of both, as well as extended family.

 

[grahamg]

Who can say who was or could have been a better parent, if both are not allowed to parent. Both love the child and should have the child's best interest at heart. The best interest of a child is to know both of their parents. I speak, because I know, my father died when I was three. I was lucky enough to be able to see my Grandparents and Uncle's family once a year on vacation. Those visits were the highlight of my childhood.
A child should never should be torn between parents but given the chance to receive the love and guidance of both, as well as extended family.

There are other aspects here you're perhaps ignoring, if you dont mind my saying, (and "if I could not know who was the better of the two parents who could?", is a better question than yours I think).
I chose my future wife knowing how capable she was, and that she genuinely wanted a child, (my child as I've stated many times, and not just that, my ex told me her two daughters with her next husband were "not like our child" - what a confession that was to make to me of all people!).
Then there is the fact my ex was so bossy both before we married, and "low and behold" it only got worse after, so it should have been of no surprise to me how much of a leading role she would insist on taking in our child's life. In fact I believe had our marrigae endured by some miracle, then my relationship with my daughter could not have flourished easily, (or maybe at all), because I would always have been slipping into second place and deferring to the mother all the time, (hard for a child to know the "real you" in those circumstances I feel, let alone you get to know yourself and what you are able to do, (such as love your child!).

The law cannot be designed to cope with every broken marriage, hence compromises have to be made somewhere, that is undoubted, but again if you dont mind my saying "the narrative you've put forward above", (about the best interests of children etc.), is the same narrative used by fathers rights groups claiming they know better than our government or courts what should be done, and yet all of you ignore the flaws in your own thinking.

I'll leave it there, because I'll be boring you by repeating my arguments here, but will just mention a few notable people, who have spoken on this topic:
Mnookin declared, "Deciding what may be in a child's best interests is no less a question than the meaning of life"!

Goldwater, (a young female Canadian lawyer), declared: "There is a need for privacy in close personal relationships", (like parent and child one presumes, and this is denied by our courts in the UK once a marriage fails and they are called upon, "even where there is no suggestion of abuse").

Sir Geoffrey Howe, former chancellor of the exchequer and foreign secretary, (when made a member of the House of Lords, sorry dont know his title there) in 2003 said: "Family law based solely on the bet interests of the child was not working"! (his views being dismissed by a former top lawyer called Vera Baird, who spoke for the Labour government of prime minister Tony Blair).

 

[grahamg]

Mentioning my ex., (again intended for the kind new member all this stuff), puts me in mind of that great book by Alexander Solzinitsin called "Anna Karenina ", where a woman bored and unhappy with her marriage turns to the affections of Oblonsky, (or was it written by Tolstoy,..., I only got half way through forty or so years ago, is my excuse for memory fade!).

Anyway, you'll be thoroughly familiar with the tale of love, betrayal, the behaviour of the jilted husband, seemingly buoyed up by his loss of a wife I seem to remember, and being a moralistic tale it all ends badly I believe for Anna Karenina, (apologies if I've made a hash of such a hugely influential time!).

Where are the similarities to my ex you're wondering, (I imagine?), well she was certainly very bored in our marriage, so sought excitement outside it, (as so many do let's face it!), and unhappy in the marriage, I can't doubt that either.

Whether the man she went off with fits the bill as a "dashing new love" I'll leave you to decide, (he's now married four times, my ex being the third).

There are aspects that don't fit at all, such as my then wife having me in a state where I was psychologically afraid of her, (as my dad used to say, "You might as well shoot a man as worry him to death", has resonance here!).

Then there is the fact my ex seems to have harmony in her life, with her now three daughters, and grandchildren around to enrich her life enormously you'd have to say, (even if the man she left "Oblonsky" for didn't work out!).

I've tried to give some colour to the description of my life/marriage/divorce etc., and how much is just foolishness its hard to say, not least because "closing down" memories of what it was like to be in a marriage that failed, is probably a necessary defence mechanism, and anyone in authority asserting couple who can't get on should somehow miraculously rub along okay, isn't dealing with the reality! This person you once married and loved is now your "psychological enemy" whether you like it or not, and will use every means at their disposal, (and they'll be well armed having been married to you!), to "put you down"!

 

[Lavinia]

Who can say who was or could have been a better parent, if both are not allowed to parent. Both love the child and should have the child's best interest at heart. The best interest of a child is to know both of their parents. I speak, because I know, my father died when I was three. I was lucky enough to be able to see my Grandparents and Uncle's family once a year on vacation. Those visits were the highlight of my childhood.

A child should never should be torn between parents but given the chance to receive the love and guidance of both, as well as extended family.

You two seem to be having a private conversation but, as it is public, I feel entitled to contribute.
The daughter of grahamg is now an adult....a highly intelligent, educated woman with a professional job. She is fully capable of forming her own opinions and her own judgements. She has decided she does not want her father in her life, and doesn't want him to be part of her children's lives. What does that indicate?

 

[Blessed]

In my mind we are not having a private conversation. You are more than welcome, at least by me, to take part in any thread on the board.

 

[grahamg]

You two seem to be having a private conversation but, as it is public, I feel entitled to contribute.
The daughter of grahamg is now an adult....a highly intelligent, educated woman with a professional job. She is fully capable of forming her own opinions and her own judgements. She has decided she does not want her father in her life, and doesn't want him to be part of her children's lives. What does that indicate?

You'd better tell us, as you seem to have made your mind up beforehand!

 

[grahamg]

In my mind we are not having a private conversation. You are more than welcome, at least by me, to take part in any thread on the board.

I admit to using your good self as a means of avoiding the torrent of criticism often directed at any discussions I kick off regarding fathers/parental rights, (so apologies for that, though you've been exceptionally kind in all your posts, thus encouraging me to discuss things I probably wouldn't have otherwise, so thank you for that, and I hope you don't feel "used/abused" too much! ).

Oh, and apologies for my ignorance earlier, Anna Karenina was of course written by Leo Tolstoy.

 

[JaniceM]

You two seem to be having a private conversation but, as it is public, I feel entitled to contribute.
The daughter of grahamg is now an adult....a highly intelligent, educated woman with a professional job. She is fully capable of forming her own opinions and her own judgements. She has decided she does not want her father in her life, and doesn't want him to be part of her children's lives. What does that indicate?

I do not have all the facts on their specific situation, but if, as it appeared, it was a matter of Parental Alienation/Parental Alienation Syndrome, what it 'indicates' is regardless of the girl's current age, PAS does not simply "go away" with time or maturity. PA is, in the truest sense of the word, brainwashing.. and it'd take a lot of competent mental health assistance to ever overcome it. In other words, she's no more capable of making her own 'judgments' and 'decisions' on this matter now than when she was a child.

 

[Pepper]

In other words, she's no more capable of making her own 'judgments' and 'decisions' on this matter now than when she was a child.

BS. IMO.

AND, he has never talked about reaching out to her, congratulating her on her motherhood, sending gifts to his grandchildren, asking for a short visit. What were HIS initiatives? IDK, that's his business, but if he didn't/doesn't than what he gets (nothing) is to be expected.

If he never reached out, or only did so briefly, than what she was told she might think has been proven. She needs to be contacted.

 

[JonSR77]

I would look into a professional therapist / counselor and what they might suggest.

 

[Blessed]

I admit to using your good self as a means of avoiding the torrent of criticism often directed at any discussions I kick off regarding fathers/parental rights, (so apologies for that, though you've been exceptionally kind in all your posts, thus encouraging me to discuss things I probably wouldn't have otherwise, so thank you for that, and I hope you don't feel "used/abused" too much! ).

Oh, and apologies for my ignorance earlier, Anna Karenina was of course written by Leo Tolstoy.

I don't feel used or abused at all. I know the feeling of being excluded, not in the same way but I know it can be a continual souce of pain. I am sorry for anyone it has happened to without proper cause.

 

[grahamg]

I believe children, "at any age" should be told the following, if they assert, (or behave), as though someone other than this kind of man is their "real father".
Quote: "He planned a family with your mother long before they were married to one another"!
"He found it within himself to show love and commitment towards you for many years, even after the marriage disintegrated for reasons outside his control"!
"He did not doubt he was your father, and hence is unique and irreplaceable in that regard, (as much as your mother is irreplaceable using the same criteria)"!

"When being usurped as a husband and then as a father by someone motivated to keep themselves in your mothers good books, he did not abandon you, nor did he allow any new partner he found, (or their children), to take over your place in his life, or interfere with your relationship and contact with him in any way"!

"Anyone judging him as a father does not love you as he does, hence their right to judge you should be constrained, and they shouldn't be allowed to assume they know better than he, what may be in your interests, and what should be said to you when you speak disloyally about your loving father"!

" Many children have fathers/parents who do not love them for whatever reason, or are unable to find sufficient love within themselves, and those children suffer as a result, "a law protecting your right to be heard in court proceedings, should not cause more potentially loving fathers/parents to abandon their interests in their own children because they feel they cannot win against such a legal system""!

"This man is your real father whatever anyone ever says to the contrary, (including yourself), and no one has the right or power to saw otherwise without just cause, and the English language does not need to be changed to pander to any feelings you might express on this subject, so whether you like it or not"!

"By denying this man who is your real father any recognition you may automatically cut off your children from a loving grandparent"!

"These are the things this state believes anyone acting on its behalf should be saying to any child they encounter in your circumstances"!

(please note I am serious about not wishing to stir up those likely to respond negatively to this thread, so please feel free to ignore it, because it isn't intended for you!)

Would anyone mind if I were to ask if you're cognisant that this is the thread topic, as listed above, (with a request those feeling negatively towards fathers/parents rights, or my posts on the topic in general try to restrain oneself from arguing or criticising "as per usual"!)!

 

[grahamg]

I don't feel used or abused at all. I know the feeling of being excluded, not in the same way but I know it can be a continual souce of pain. I am sorry for anyone it has happened to without proper cause.

Glad you don't feel "used or abused", (I won't do it to you again, or at least try my darnist not to! . ).

 

[Blessed]

Glad you don't feel "used or abused", (I won't do it to you again, or at least try my darnist not to! . ).

Let's leave off this subject now. I would like you to start a new thread and tell us about your work life. I would love to hear about the farms you work at and the animals you care for.

 

[grahamg]

Let's leave off this subject now. I would like you to start a new thread and tell us about your work life. I would love to hear about the farms you work at and the animals you care for.

Can do all that if you wish, (and allow others to respond to the OP should they wish).

Btw are you any kind of "cow girl" yourself, (I could tell you of "the time I roped a steer" though I'd be lying to you as we don't tend to rope our cattle as done in the wild west shows, but I have a story about being run ragged by a strong ewe, and banjaxed by a lamb! ).

 

[grahamg]

I would look into a professional therapist / counselor and what they might suggest.

You're intending to get me some professional help, (well you wouldn't be the first to suggest it! )?

 

[grahamg]

BS. IMO.. AND, he has never talked about reaching out to her, congratulating her on her motherhood, sending gifts to his grandchildren, asking for a short visit. What were HIS initiatives? IDK, that's his business, but if he didn't/doesn't than what he gets (nothing) is to be expected.
If he never reached out, or only did so briefly, than what she was told she might think has been proven. She needs to be contacted.

Its too easy to criticise other parents.

Some do so wilfully who have never been a parent, or wished to be, and though you'd never believe me of course, I do declare, (as my own mother used to say when I criticised her), "I've done my best in all respects, and doubt I could have tried harder or done anymore that would have made a scrap of difference"!

 

[grahamg]

I do not have all the facts on their specific situation, but if, as it appeared, it was a matter of Parental Alienation/Parental Alienation Syndrome, what it 'indicates' is regardless of the girl's current age, PAS does not simply "go away" with time or maturity. PA is, in the truest sense of the word, brainwashing.. and it'd take a lot of competent mental health assistance to ever overcome it. In other words, she's no more capable of making her own 'judgments' and 'decisions' on this matter now than when she was a child.

Very well answered, (and thanks for the supporting post, though in my child's case I don't assert PAS was the case necessarily, in terms of something needing treatment of some kind). I'd suggest a change in attitude by those in authority, and slight change to our UK laws, allowing the merest hint of parental rights, or statute rights, would deal with everything as well as could be expected, (so the court officials are obliged to make statements similar to those laid down in the OP).

 

[morgan]

I am of the opinion (whether it is wanted or not) that grandchildren should have the right to know their grandparents. I undertand how you feel.

 

[grahamg]

I am of the opinion (whether it is wanted or not) that grandchildren should have the right to know their grandparents. I undertand how you feel.

They are moving that way in the UK, though its a very expensive process and all couched in terms likely to drive everyone nuts, (if there are no statutory rights for parents in the UK, and there are none at all, only "responsibilities" listed on the relevant government website, how can grandparents have any rights of any real substance?).

 

[Blessed]

Can do all that if you wish, (and allow others to respond to the OP should they wish).

Btw are you any kind of "cow girl" yourself, (I could tell you of "the time I roped a steer" though I'd be lying to you as we don't tend to rope our cattle as done in the wild west shows, but I have a story about being run ragged by a strong ewe, and banjaxed by a lamb! ).

No, not any kind of cow girl. I did grow up with a shetland pony in the backyard. His name was Sam and he did learn how to open the back screen door with his teeth. My Mom was not happy! My sister had a horse as a teenager but it was not nice for anyone but her. I did ride horses as a child but never hers. A neighbor would sometimes buy a calf and raise it in their yard. No one got attached to them because we knew it would be headed for the butcher. We also had a few chickens at one point, they were fun.

My older sister has chickens now, they are pets, but they do enjoy the eggs. She has large dogs but they don't ever bother the chickens when they are allowed to roam outside the coop. I don't have a clue how she managed that.

 

[grahamg]

No, not any kind of cow girl. I did grow up with a shetland pony in the backyard. His name was Sam and he did learn how to open the back screen door with his teeth. My Mom was not happy! My sister had a horse as a teenager but it was not nice for anyone but her. I did ride horses as a child but never hers. A neighbor would sometimes buy a calf and raise it in their yard. No one got attached to them because we knew it would be headed for the butcher. We also had a few chickens at one point, they were fun.

My older sister has chickens now, they are pets, but they do enjoy the eggs. She has large dogs but they don't ever bother the chickens when they are allowed to roam outside the coop. I don't have a clue how she managed that.

If you are good with horses you're ahead of me there!
Probably best to try to move these discussions to a different section of the forum, (I'll have a go later, because this old tablet computer won't allow me to cut and paste).