Trade agreements in the US--how they have and continue to hurt us.

Carla

Carla

Senior Member
Location
Pa
We cannot compete with cheap labor from foreign countries without tariffs to make our own products competitive. GATT now WTO, have reduced or eliminated tariffs. As far back as the late 70's, Japaneese began dumping steel here, eventually leading to the closing of steel plants and related industry. China and a few other countries began importing clothing until we lost most of our garment industry.

Companies began leaving the US to take advantage of cheaper labor. They did not have to worry about things like employee safety, healthcare or other benefits. They did not have to pay overtime or be concerned with child labor laws. They then could send these products back to the US duty-free and still charge the same price as if it was manufactured here.

We have had and still have enormous trade deficits here in the US. Currency manipulation (mainly by Japan and China) causes US goods and services to cost more. America has lost millions of jobs! This new agreement
(supposedly) will help correct the manipulation but what about the deficits?

Aren't our trade agreements truly job killers? It seems there was little concern initially about loss of millions of jobs here in our country--maybe it has worked out better in other countries but if that competitive edge ( tariff) has been eliminated, it seems a bit unfair. Large corporations moving outside the US are profiting while manufacturing in this country has been greatly reduced.

I remember George Bush saying we would be left with the good-paying jobs as so many companies were leaving the states. I think he mumbled something about retraining people...

Just wondering what others feel about this and if it has affected you either directly or indirectly during your working years? I do have hope that things will improve. I am not against trade, but it is not fair trade when it impacts our economy. We have to get back into making things here for our economy and autonomy.
 

Yes, I believe the trade agreements are serious job killers, and that they, along the movement of so many of our manufacturing companies overseas, are the biggest causes of our crap economy; and I think it's dangerous that we're heading toward the point where we depend on other countries for most everything.

I am not a doomsday theorist, but I worry that if we ever get in a situation like WWII where we can't get the things we depend on from other countries (like China and Japan, etc.), we could find ourselves in a very serious situation. Could we even make our own tanks, planes, engines, munitions, etc., and other war materiel ourselves without steel and other things from other countries who might become hostile to us? And would we have the skilled labor force to manufacture such things even if we had the raw materials to do so? To me, that's a pretty scary scenario.
 
Dear Carla,
I think we've got threads on this topic covered between us haven't we!

The last time I looked (and it is some time ago, maybe five years), the US had the vast majority of the top 100 companies in the world.

So, with that caveat in place, if the US still has the richest companies in the world or the majority of them then it is important not to exaggerate the results flowing from trade deals isn't it?

In addition, consumers in the west probably benefit most from the global competition driving down prices (I admit I'm facing both ways on this competition in regard to agricultural production).
 

Last edited:
You obviously are not from the US or any other country with a similar economy. Wealth distribution is lopsided and very unequal and I don't care how Forbes or any other company manipulates facts and figures to conjure up a "per capita" rate--it's just not the reality. If you were to understand what I posted we could have a discussion but I cannot debate something with someone that doesn't understand. Yes, we have some rich people who have benefited greatly from GATT and WTO and our trade agreements. The fact remains, it has not helped the working class without college degrees or trade skills. So, reading something on the Internet can be very misleading when you do not really understand how these numbers are being computed.

Want to talk about averages? The minimum wage under Federal guidelines is $7.25 an hour. We seem to have plenty of those jobs available. An example--McDonalds restaurants--CEO earns 8.75 million a year but pays its workers $7.25 an hr.

We have, on the other hand, adapted to some of this economy. But this playing field has not been fair or level for many years. The rich have gotten much richer and some people are doing quite well. Opportunities still not abundant or fair to a lot of others as they struggle to survive. Please don't even try to argue about figures that do not add up.
 
Dear Carla,
I freely admit I'm no economist and really only have a rudimentary knowledge on trade deals, though generally in the UK the BBC tells us all how they are a good thing :)

In a sense that's why I started this thread or my thread (I mean - this one's yours of course) - to try to learn a little.

The Brexit vote in the UK brings into question "whether the UK will retain access to the free market in the EU(?)"

I did once purchase a very very thick book entitled "One world, ready or not" about "globalisation" of trade and admit have never managed to read it (I also bought the three volumes of Karl Marks book "Das Kapital" many years ago and found it so imprenetrable I gave up and gave it to my very bright nephew who did read it - so not a total loss economically).

Finally, regardless of my knowledge or lack of it on the subject of economics don't kid yourself that you necessarily have the best insight here, because 62 years on this planet, listening to everyone from my father/grandfather to clever friends and other people here I've met all means I know some things you may not. My grandfather lived to the age of 97 (born in 1885) so lived through the great depression, not to mention two world wars, and represented his locality as a councillor for thirty years. His view was that "slumps" as he called depressions were bound to come again!
 
I can only tell you how it has affected working people here in our country. It doesn't require insight to acknowledge the fact it has resulted in the loss of many, many jobs. There is an enormous trade deficit-- no need for insight there either. No, insight would be if in the end, it would be beneficial to everyone. It has mainly benefitted the rich and has caused hardship both for individuals and our cities. It has not worked well for a whole lot of people. It may have worked well in other countries but tariffs were put in place for a legitimate reason. It doesn't take a genius or a lawyer to figure out why. If an item is being produced by a country using much cheaper labor and floods our market, it puts us out of business. Then, the company leaves the US to take advantage of this much cheaper labor and imports it back here again, with no tariff. After a while, they raise the price to reflect what it would cost to produce it here in our country. Can you figure out who is making the huge profit and benefitting by this arrangement? How is that good for everyone?

Yes, I have some understanding of a depression. You can argue the point it is cyclical but it can also be the result of greedy people and manipulation. My parents and grandparents lived through it too. We came close in 2008, a terrible recession. That was not cyclical either. Listen, you have your views and I have mine. I worked for nearly forty years before retiring in 2005. Maybe you think you know better for some reason, but the manipulation of currency is just another kick in the teeth.

These things are factual and not opinion. We have lost millions of jobs. Tariffs have been eliminated through GATT and WTO. Numerous corporations have left the US but continue to send product back to the US with no duty. We continue to have an enormous trade deficit. Manipulation of currencies. Huge profits by American companies that have left the US. The wealthy have gotten much wealthier and that is also an undisputed fact.
 
Here's my take on this subject.

Trade agreements are so complicated, I can't imagine many people truly understanding all the ramifications. Way above my pay grade for sure. Even those who write the agreements sometimes admit to unintended consequences. This is an issue where I have to follow the position of someone who understands them, and who I trust to have the best interest of the country in mind, and not just those of the business people. AND EVEN THEN you have to understand, in votes in Congress for example, the subtleties of why they vote the way they do.
 
I agree that we should buy products that are made in this country.

The problem that I see with it is the American people themselves, we all want low prices and high wages!

The higher the tariff on the products coming into this country the higher the prices we will pay for all goods and services.

I agree with NancyNGA these agreements are very complicated, we need to be careful what we wish for.
 
I just want to add something, and then I am done with this subject. I am not against trade, I favor fair trade. It has been anything but fair from the beginning. Lifting tariffs and allowing our market to be flooded with cheaper product is what started this cascade. (GAFF) We manufacture very little in this country anymore, it is almost impossible to buy American and even when you think you are, there is a good chance it was partially made somewhere else.

I had a brief conversation with an Asian woman prior to my retirement. She was a scientist from China, I am not certain the length of time she was here, but she was telling me how prosperous her country has become and that her children have told her about all the new infrastructure and industry--they were going hammers! She could hardly believe it herself--the expression on her face let me to believe their economy was doing exceptionally well. Of course I told her I was glad for her but at the same time, felt a bit sad for our country. So no, I am not against trade but it needs to work for all the countries involved.
 
Just to annoy you......

Carla said:
I can only tell you how it has affected working people here in our country. It doesn't require insight to acknowledge the fact it has resulted in the loss of many, many jobs. There is an enormous trade deficit-- no need for insight there either. No, insight would be if in the end, it would be beneficial to everyone. It has mainly benefitted the rich and has caused hardship both for individuals and our cities. It has not worked well for a whole lot of people. It may have worked well in other countries but tariffs were put in place for a legitimate reason. It doesn't take a genius or a lawyer to figure out why. If an item is being produced by a country using much cheaper labor and floods our market, it puts us out of business. Then, the company leaves the US to take advantage of this much cheaper labor and imports it back here again, with no tariff. After a while, they raise the price to reflect what it would cost to produce it here in our country. Can you figure out who is making the huge profit and benefitting by this arrangement? How is that good for everyone?

Yes, I have some understanding of a depression. You can argue the point it is cyclical but it can also be the result of greedy people and manipulation. My parents and grandparents lived through it too. We came close in 2008, a terrible recession. That was not cyclical either. Listen, you have your views and I have mine. I worked for nearly forty years before retiring in 2005. Maybe you think you know better for some reason, but the manipulation of currency is just another kick in the teeth.

These things are factual and not opinion. We have lost millions of jobs. Tariffs have been eliminated through GATT and WTO. Numerous corporations have left the US but continue to send product back to the US with no duty. We continue to have an enormous trade deficit. Manipulation of currencies. Huge profits by American companies that have left the US. The wealthy have gotten much wealthier and that is also an undisputed fact.
Click to expand...

As you have decided to quit this thread I will just surprise you by saying that I do agree with a lot of the things you've said (following the "Michael Moore" views on this - if you know what I mean?).

However, if this isn't too contradictory a statement, I think I agree more with the other posters on this thread :)
 

Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top