Trying to imagine thinking without language

bobcat

bobcat

Well-known Member
Location
Northern Calif
I had read somewhere once that language is processed in a different area of the brain than thought, but I'm having a hard time trying to imagine thought without language. It must be possible because early humans had thought before language evolved, and even animals do it, but maybe with us, language is so interwoven with thought that it almost seems impossible.

I know we have awareness, but it just seems different than thought. My whole inner world is just a stream of words. Maybe animals don't think like we do. Perhaps it's more like association and response. IDK
 

Aunt Bea said:
I think it would probably take the form of a video, similar to our dreams.

We would visualize our needs, desires, etc…

I also think about people from other countries that speak fluent English, do they think in English or do they convert their thoughts to French, German, Spanish, etc… 🤔
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That's something that never occurred to me, but an excellent question, to which I have no answer.
 
IrishEyes said:
Kind of funny when you think about animal communication and ours. They communicate by sound and body language
and seem to read the signs well.
We have all these words and languages, print, on and on and STILL we misunderstand people in so many ways!
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It seems some animals must have thoughts of some sort, and even go so far as do deceive other animals, so they must be doing some sort of mental exercise. An octopus seems like an intelligent creature, but are they really thinking (Processing), or just waiting to respond to whatever happens?
 
911 said:
I think we all have an imagination, which we use when are deciding on a design when men mostly need to build a shelf, rack or anything of use. Imagination of thought uses no language, just thought.
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I assume by imagination, you mean picturing something in your mind. I can follow that. It's just a mental image there.
It would seem though, that any thoughts about that image would involve inner dialogue (Language), no?
 
I asked my resource helper perplexity.AI about this :

Yes, this understanding is accurate—and now widely recognized in mainstream Western psychology and neuroscience. Hindu and Buddhist traditions have for thousands of years differentiated between the stream of thoughts (including language) and a deeper, nonverbal awareness—a distinction at the core of many meditative practices. Techniques like meditation in both traditions are specifically designed to cultivate this state of mindful awareness, where one witnesses thoughts and emotions as passing phenomena rather than identifying with them.mindfulnessnow+2
In the West, only in the past century has this distinction gained scientific and cultural acceptance. The adaptation of these Eastern practices led to the adoption of the word "mindfulness," especially since the 1970s with programs like Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) by Jon Kabat-Zinn. This secular mindfulness focuses on being consciously aware of thoughts and emotions, rather than being carried away by them—directly inspired by Buddhist “sati” and Hindu states of meditative presence.chibs+2
Today, “mindfulness” in the West often refers to cultivating this nonjudgmental, present-moment awareness. While the terminology is new in Western psychology, the underlying experiential practice comes directly from ancient Hindu and Buddhist wisdom—traditions that have long understood how to live without being dominated by thought or language.thriveglobal+2

  1. The History and Origins of Mindfulness - MindfulnessNow
  2. What Are The Origins Of Mindfulness - Thrive Global
  3. https://pillow.app/article/cultural-and-historical-contexts-of-mindfulness-practices
  4. Buddhism and Hinduism - Wikipedia
  5. The Origins of Mindfulness — Chibs.co
  6. https://positivepsychology.com/history-of-mindfulness/
  7. Sakshi and Dhyana: the origin of mindfulness-based therapies - PMC
  8. https://www.clarku.edu/human-resources/2021/11/22/history-of-mindfulness/
  9. https://www.hinduamerican.org/blog/...hinduism-has-a-deep-meditation-tradition-too/
 
I'm trying to imagine a primitive people without language. Maybe their communication consisted of grunts, gestures, and facial expressions, probably similar to apes and other primates. Even though one may conclude that body language and such is still language, how do they think thoughts in their head using body language, or is it just association of a gesture with hopeful results?
 
bobcat said:
I assume by imagination, you mean picturing something in your mind. I can follow that. It's just a mental image there.
It would seem though, that any thoughts about that image would involve inner dialogue (Language), no?
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Not necessarily. I can imagine a picture of something before I add the dimensions of whatever it is I am going to build. I imagine what I want it to look like and then I draw it on paper and then I add the dimensions.
 
Aunt Bea said:
I think it would probably take the form of a video, similar to our dreams.

We would visualize our needs, desires, etc…

I also think about people from other countries that speak fluent English, do they think in English or do they convert their thoughts to French, German, Spanish, etc… 🤔
Click to expand...
Long ago, I read that people personally differ on their primary learning modes. They can lean toward written, visual, oral, or audio orientated. There are probably other ways we learn too. I suspect those differences heavily influence how we think. For me, I think it's mostly words, but I remember on college exams, I would partially remember answers as they were written in the texts, and would visualize the sentences. It's not like I have a photographic memory. If I do, they're pretty fuzzy photographs. I can't look at a page of text and then file it away for reading later.

A side story I remember, is being told about a little girl in school who who read a text extremely fast and could answer all the questions about the text. Her teacher asked her how she could read so fast. The little girl who had never heard of anything like a photographic memory replied, "Well it's a trick. I look at the page, and just remember it so I can read it to myself when I need to find the answers."
 
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bobcat said:
I'm trying to imagine a primitive people without language. Maybe their communication consisted of grunts, gestures, and facial expressions, probably similar to apes and other primates. Even though one may conclude that body language and such is still language, how do they think thoughts in their head using body language, or is it just association of a gesture with hopeful results?
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Tell me we know everything about how the brain works. That's a long way down the road from here. I suspect the primitives were very limited in reasoning abilities. We stayed in that mode for a hundred thousand years until something happened where now we can't even keep up with all that is known. And almost all of that has happened in the last couple of centuries. Words are important.

I remember a documentary years back about experts in their fields categorizing the one hundred most influential people in the last 1000 years. Of the two hour program, as we approached the top 10 and the one named most influential, I was on the edge of my seat. They had named some pretty convincing picks, with only a few I would question, but who would be the most influential?

Johannes Gutenberg was the consensus. Words matter, and spreading knowledge through them matters.
 
I'm currently at page 200 of a 300 page 2022 best seller, Being You, A New Science of Consciousness by neuroscientist, Anil Seth. Highly recommended for those interested in understanding how our brains think while avoiding getting into brain anatomy or depths of current consciousness theories. Very up to date with latest research. Our human brains have greatly evolved by adding complex neural connections between many brain areas with connections to our cerebral cortex's cognitive executive control.

Google AI:

The language areas of the human brain are primarily located in the left hemisphere, although the right hemisphere also plays a role. These areas include:

Broca's Area: Situated in the inferior frontal gyrus of the left hemisphere, Broca's area is responsible for speech production and articulation.

Wernicke's Area: Found in the posterior superior temporal lobe of the left hemisphere, Wernicke's area is involved in language comprehension and processing spoken language.

Angular Gyrus: Located in the parietal lobe of the left hemisphere, the angular gyrus plays a role in integrating language with other cognitive functions, such as memory and attention.

Motor Cortex: Adjacent to Broca's area, the motor cortex controls the muscles involved in speech production.

Arcuate Fasciculus: A bundle of nerve fibers that connects Broca's area and Wernicke's area, facilitating communication between these two language centers.

It's important to note that these areas work together in a complex network to process and produce language. Additionally, the specific location and function of these areas may vary slightly between individuals.
 
bobcat said:
I'm having a hard time trying to imagine thought without language
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Me too. I remember after learning a bit about mindfulness that on a walk outside at work I tried to not have any words in my mind, it was really hard to do, but what happened was I shifted to noticing better the things that I saw (until I saw a cute guy and then 'he's cute' words popped into my head LOL).

When I was young I read the book "The Descent of Woman" (the aquatic ape hypothesis, regarding evolution of early hominids in late Pliocene or early Pleistocene eras) and I remember that the first language in that theory came from the need to communicate, this is the only quote CHATGPT will give me (tho I remember the book having a more humorous version where a frustrated apeguy smacks someone with a fish while trying to teach him what his 'fish' word meant):

“Gradually, over many generations, it became borne in on the hominid that the only time he got his reward while in the water was not when he bristled or scowled or swung his arms, but when a noise came out of his throat. And the frustration of wanting to indicate to another where food was to be found was the beginning of speech.”

Related to that, it seems like ocean mammals communicate with words, I remember recently something about whales having names for each other.

Nowadays sometimes I watch the YouTubes of people teaching their dogs and cats to communicate with word-buttons. The animals take such a long time to think it out.
 
I don't think I think in words.
I don't know how I think, but it's not in words.
Isn't "thinking in words" like talking to oneself silently? Wouldn't that take much MUCH longer to do? Don't we think pretty much instantaneously?

Edit: When I think "FIRE!!" I see the picture of the fire, not the stupid word.
Words are about communication.
 
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gruntlabor said:
I don't think I think in words.
I don't know how I think, but it's not in words.
Isn't "thinking in words" like talking to oneself silently? Wouldn't that take much MUCH longer to do? Don't we think pretty much instantaneously?

Edit: When I think "FIRE!!" I see the picture of the fire, not the stupid word.
Words are about communication.
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I guess in my mind, to think about something means to ponder it, or evaluate, or ruminate. To see a picture or image in my mind isn't really doing any of those things. It's just conjuring up a mental image. So I guess that's how I view the distinction between the two. JMO
 
Aunt Bea said:
I also think about people from other countries that speak fluent English, do they think in English or do they convert their thoughts to French, German, Spanish, etc… 🤔
Click to expand...
I asked my mother that question. She thinks in German when she is speaking German, and in English when she is speaking English.
She also said that a person is not fluent in a second language if they are still translating what they want to say from their native language.
 
Aunt Bea said:
I also think about people from other countries that speak fluent English, do they think in English or do they convert their thoughts to French, German, Spanish, etc… 🤔
Click to expand...
In my case, English is not my first language but my third. When I first arrived in the USA, I would think in my first language then translate my thought into English.
Being multilingual, I would often have dreams where words from other languages would appear. Sometimes ones I didn't recognize. It is like my brain was improvising across languages while I slept.
Now, after 47 years it is rare for me to think in a different language than English.
I often said to my husband that it would have been nice to be able to combine all these languages together in a sentence to describe a thought because some words in a certain language seem to have a more precise meaning.
 
bobcat said:
It seems some animals must have thoughts of some sort, and even go so far as do deceive other animals, so they must be doing some sort of mental exercise. An octopus seems like an intelligent creature, but are they really thinking (Processing), or just waiting to respond to whatever happens?
Click to expand...
@bobcat You might like to watch a documentary called "My Octopus Teacher" on Netflix. It is so interesting. A filmmaker forges a relationship with an octopus in South Africa.
 
bobcat said:
I guess in my mind, to think about something means to ponder it, or evaluate, or ruminate. To see a picture or image in my mind isn't really doing any of those things. It's just conjuring up a mental image. So I guess that's how I view the distinction between the two. JMO
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Yes, to ponder, evaluate, ruminate serious things I'm in trouble. For that I need words, maybe pencil and paper to clarify. But the mental calculations/thought needed to catch a ball are very complex too, and there's no time for words.
But thinking about our mental flow in normal, lighter fare is different, like, "What do I need to do/gather in order to go out and do my chores?" I don't say those words to myself, or any words, I don't think.
My brain is pretty smart, smarter than I am.
 
gruntlabor said:
Yes, to ponder, evaluate, ruminate serious things I'm in trouble. For that I need words, maybe pencil and paper to clarify. But the mental calculations/thought needed to catch a ball are very complex too, and there's no time for words.
But thinking about our mental flow in normal, lighter fare is different, like, "What do I need to do/gather in order to go out and do my chores?" I don't say those words to myself, or any words, I don't think.
My brain is pretty smart, smarter than I am.
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Yes, I think you're right. Many routine exercises like driving or mowing the lawn are handled by the subconscious, and therefore don't require thought (At least not that we're aware of anyway). However, if we chose to think about them, like "I wonder if the bakery is open yet?". It still seems like words come into the mind. Maybe it's just me, IDK.
 
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