US sending controversial cluster bombs to Ukraine risking escalation & collateral damage

Just heard on news...Putin "has lost the war with Ukraine".
I don't think anyone told the Russians yet.

Last night, Russians launched multiple Iranian strike drones and cruise missiles on a residential area in east Ukraine, killing an 85 yr-old lady and injuring 4 other citizens.
 

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I understand that the U.S. and a few other NATO countries are considering sending F-16's to Ukraine and some of the countries are already training pilots. This is NOT good news for anyone. Russia made comments that if they do this, they will consider an act of war and will respond. With all of the NATO countries having to join in when the $hit hits the fan, what do you think Putin's next move will be? I have a pretty good idea.

Let's be clear about this. Putin cannot take on all of NATO, so his options will be limited if he wishes to prevail. On the other hand, his Army may have had enough and just quit. The soldiers know that to continue fighting all of NATO, (if from the ground), many, many will be killed. I doubt if they can whip 31 countries. (I know, 32, if we count Sweden.)
 
I understand that the U.S. and a few other NATO countries are considering sending F-16's to Ukraine and some of the countries are already training pilots. This is NOT good news for anyone. Russia made comments that if they do this, they will consider an act of war and will respond. With all of the NATO countries having to join in when the $hit hits the fan, what do you think Putin's next move will be? I have a pretty good idea.

Let's be clear about this. Putin cannot take on all of NATO, so his options will be limited if he wishes to prevail. On the other hand, his Army may have had enough and just quit. The soldiers know that to continue fighting all of NATO, (if from the ground), many, many will be killed. I doubt if they can whip 31 countries. (I know, 32, if we count Sweden.)

Are we to believe that there are 32 countries in NATO able and willing to be a factor against Russia? It seems likely that it will fall to a few with varying degrees of assistance here and there from others.

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NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg intended to make NATO's current military spending target of 2% of national GDP a minimum requirement rather than a goal to aim for.

In 2023, even the old target will be met by only 11 of the 31 members of the alliance, according to NATO estimates. The goal was set in 2014, when NATO leaders agreed to increase spending towards 2% of their GDP on defence within a decade.

The 11 in question are the United States, Britain, Poland, Greece, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Latvia and Slovakia.

Bringing up the rear are Canada, Slovenia, Turkey, Spain, Belgium and Luxembourg, whose defence spending was under 1.4% of GDP.

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-...ast-2-their-gdp-defence-diplomats-2023-07-07/

 
Are we to believe that there are 32 countries in NATO able and willing to be a factor against Russia? It seems likely that it will fall to a few with varying degrees of assistance here and there from others.

---

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg intended to make NATO's current military spending target of 2% of national GDP a minimum requirement rather than a goal to aim for.

In 2023, even the old target will be met by only 11 of the 31 members of the alliance, according to NATO estimates. The goal was set in 2014, when NATO leaders agreed to increase spending towards 2% of their GDP on defence within a decade.

The 11 in question are the United States, Britain, Poland, Greece, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Latvia and Slovakia.

Bringing up the rear are Canada, Slovenia, Turkey, Spain, Belgium and Luxembourg, whose defence spending was under 1.4% of GDP.

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-...ast-2-their-gdp-defence-diplomats-2023-07-07/

2% of our GDP would be much greater than all of the other countries in NATO. This is why we always get hosed when joining the organizations we do, like NATO, W.H.O. and the CDC. We still have the largest economy in the world, but I can't figure that one out, either. According to Google, our GDP at the end of 2022 was $25.5 trillion. Sweden was at $565 Billion. Canada is only $2.2 trillion. Huge differences. Besides that, we pay up. Some of these countries never get paid up. No surprise there.
 
Are we to believe that there are 32 countries in NATO able and willing to be a factor against Russia? It seems likely that it will fall to a few with varying degrees of assistance here and there from others.

---

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg intended to make NATO's current military spending target of 2% of national GDP a minimum requirement rather than a goal to aim for.

In 2023, even the old target will be met by only 11 of the 31 members of the alliance, according to NATO estimates. The goal was set in 2014, when NATO leaders agreed to increase spending towards 2% of their GDP on defence within a decade.

The 11 in question are the United States, Britain, Poland, Greece, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Latvia and Slovakia.

Bringing up the rear are Canada, Slovenia, Turkey, Spain, Belgium and Luxembourg, whose defence spending was under 1.4% of GDP.

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-...ast-2-their-gdp-defence-diplomats-2023-07-07/

Maybe the countries that don't help with the fighting or pay their fair share can buy the body bags. We are going to need quite a few.
 
Are we to believe that there are 32 countries in NATO able and willing to be a factor against Russia? It seems likely that it will fall to a few with varying degrees of assistance here and there from others.
There are several countries supplying weapons and other supplies to Ukraine. That has so far seemed to work, but what has been avoided, and probably rightly so, is furnishing actual military personnel, which Russia would likely deem an act of war. Thus no NATO membership for Ukraine at this time, but aircraft to be flown by Ukraine pilots, maybe so.
 
I understand that the U.S. and a few other NATO countries are considering sending F-16's to Ukraine and some of the countries are already training pilots. This is NOT good news for anyone. Russia made comments that if they do this, they will consider an act of war and will respond. With all of the NATO countries having to join in when the $hit hits the fan, what do you think Putin's next move will be? I have a pretty good idea.

Let's be clear about this. Putin cannot take on all of NATO, so his options will be limited if he wishes to prevail. On the other hand, his Army may have had enough and just quit. The soldiers know that to continue fighting all of NATO, (if from the ground), many, many will be killed. I doubt if they can whip 31 countries. (I know, 32, if we count Sweden.)
You're right, Putin knows a war with NATO would be futile, and I'm sure he believes it would end his presidency.

I predict Putin will eventually pull his troops out of Ukraine, but first he needs to invent a story that makes him look like the better man, or at least not a war criminal, like the pull-out is a goodwill gesture, or generals on both sides came to a mutual agreement, or he was lied to from the get-go... He'll think of something.
 
There are several countries supplying weapons and other supplies to Ukraine. That has so far seemed to work, but what has been avoided, and probably rightly so, is furnishing actual military personnel, which Russia would likely deem an act of war. Thus no NATO membership for Ukraine at this time, but aircraft to be flown by Ukraine pilots, maybe so.
Yes, I was thinking of a bigger war caused by Russia, primarily with more ground troops and weapons. The war planes and pilot training can only be done by a select few. As to other things it seems only fair that all countries should contribute their fair share but some big ones have not. I'm fine with no Ukraine NATO membership for now, btw.
 
Yes, I was thinking of a bigger war caused by Russia, primarily with more ground troops and weapons. The war planes and pilot training can only be done by a select few. As to other things it seems only fair that all countries should contribute their fair share but some big ones have not. I'm fine with no Ukraine NATO membership for now, btw.
I certainly agree with no Ukraine NATO membership for now, and perhaps ever. An attack on a NATO member by Russia would require US troops to the defense, and that could draw the US into WW3. A war with Russia would likely mean nukes. Yikes!!
 
There are several countries supplying weapons and other supplies to Ukraine. That has so far seemed to work, but what has been avoided, and probably rightly so, is furnishing actual military personnel, which Russia would likely deem an act of war. Thus no NATO membership for Ukraine at this time, but aircraft to be flown by Ukraine pilots, maybe so.
If we send Ukraine the F-16's, Russia will most likely consider that as an act of aggression and take action. Doing so will most likely put the U.S. in very unenviable position for the citizens. I think Russia is getting very tired of talking and will soon up the ante. So far, Putin has done a lot of intimidating and using manipulation, but that will end if we and other nations send F-16's.
 
An attack on a NATO member by Russia would require US troops to the defense, and that could draw the US into WW3
Yep, that has always been the situation with NATO, its a common defense organization. The only thing new is that NATO membership has increased. NATO probably contained Soviet expansion in Western Europe for a long time.

I can understand not giving membership to Ukraine until after the war, I don't think NATO members are ready to go to war against Russia in Ukraine right now. However I don't know why Ukraine should be kept out long term.

My hope is that one day Russia will evolve into a country that would also join NATO.
 
If we send Ukraine the F-16's, Russia will most likely consider that as an act of aggression and take action. Doing so will most likely put the U.S. in very unenviable position for the citizens. I think Russia is getting very tired of talking and will soon up the ante. So far, Putin has done a lot of intimidating and using manipulation, but that will end if we and other nations send F-16's.
Ukraine will get the F-16s, or very similar fighting jets. I heard it's only 3 or 4, but it's a done deal, and Russia knows it.

Russia has nothing to up the ante with except nukes. But the US and a few NATO countries also have nukes, and nuke interceptors as well. Russia knows that, too.

Putin's only hope for staying in the Kremlin is the other weapon you mentioned; manipulation.

(an aside: it's election time in Russia next year. It's a faux democracy, so the people's votes don't count, but Russia does have electorates, and they are not at all happy with the way Putin's war is going. It's rumored that 2 of the electorates *disappeared* and the rest are anxious to see Putin similarly MIA)
 
I certainly agree with no Ukraine NATO membership for now, and perhaps ever.
It's unfortunate that Ukraine's president doesn't understand politics. He isn't a politician, after all. But he is learning.

I'm sure it's frustrating for Zelenskyy, but Ukraine asked for NATO membership years ago, too, and they were turned down because of Russia's puppet governments in the east and their meddling in Ukraine politics in general, and the civil unrest it was causing.

NATO needs absolute assurance that Russia has zero influence in Ukraine before they approve membership.
 
If we send Ukraine the F-16's, Russia will most likely consider that as an act of aggression and take action. Doing so will most likely put the U.S. in very unenviable position for the citizens. I think Russia is getting very tired of talking and will soon up the ante. So far, Putin has done a lot of intimidating and using manipulation, but that will end if we and other nations send F-16's.
No one's going to buy Russia crying "act of aggression" after their blatant act of aggression against Ukraine. That ain't gonna fly.

The F-16s will....unless Putin and his generals can come up with a better reason for pulling out than the one they had for going in.
 
No one's going to buy Russia crying "act of aggression" after their blatant act of aggression against Ukraine. That ain't gonna fly.

The F-16s will....unless Putin and his generals can come up with a better reason for pulling out than the one they had for going in.
You don’t understand war.
 
I don't think anyone told the Russians yet.
Yup, it's the lovable, bumbling, inept Russian army, on a laugh-a-minute riot through Ukraine. Except, the Ukrainians keep finding these dead Ukrainians. It's a war, and each side could potentially win. And in the end, guys in suits will sit around a table to bury the war.
 


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