What happened to honesty?

@HermitHogan wrote:

"What about the local auto repair shop that rips off customers on a regular basis? Or conmen who steal from the elderly? Or people who misrepresent a product they're selling or a service they're providing... people who commit fraud. And corporations that rip off the government, and we have to pay for it with our tax dollars?

White collar criminals often don't make the national news because it's not blatant theft and not frightening like hoards of people ripping off a department store and breaking windows, but it's even more egregious because they don't need to be dishonest; they just don't see a problem with it so they do it and most of the time, get away with it. And if they do get caught, they just have to pay a little fine and that's the end of it while poor people get sent to prison for far less."

IMHO two cannot be compared, Hermit. Why? Caveat emptor. I agree it is dishonest to try to rip people off, but not being ripped off is one's own responsibility and there are going to be shysters forever, rich or poor. It is a flaw of greed.

I can't think of anytime or reason anyone would need a reason to be dishonest. Rich or poor!
I think dishonesty such as stealing is a character flaw, just like not accepting responsibility for one's actions is a character flaw.

Raised in poverty is no excuse for dishonest stealing from others.

And once one reaches the age of about 16-21, they have a choice whether to remain in poverty and do themselves a favor and shake off bad parenting mojo; one CAN make a choice to escape whatever background they came from.

Me and likely many on SF for example.

Your line of thinking reminds me of schools LOWERING expectations to get an A in a class or make graduation easier.

People/kids will rise to the level of what is EXPECTED of them. Like honesty. Poverty is an opportunity to BUILD character or tear it down, whichever an individual chooses.
 
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CooCooforCoCoPuffs said:
@HermitHogan wrote:

"What about the local auto repair shop that rips off customers on a regular basis? Or conmen who steal from the elderly? Or people who misrepresent a product they're selling or a service they're providing... people who commit fraud. And corporations that rip off the government, and we have to pay for it with our tax dollars?

White collar criminals often don't make the national news because it's not blatant theft and not frightening like hoards of people ripping off a department store and breaking windows, but it's even more egregious because they don't need to be dishonest; they just don't see a problem with it so they do it and most of the time, get away with it. And if they do get caught, they just have to pay a little fine and that's the end of it while poor people get sent to prison for far less."

IMHO two cannot be compared, Hermit. Why? Caveat emptor. I agree it is dishonest to try to rip people off, but not being ripped off is one's own responsibility and there are going to be shysters forever, rich or poor. It is a flaw of greed.

I can't think of anytime or reason anyone would need a reason to be dishonest. Rich or poor!
I think dishonesty such as stealing is a character flaw, just like not accepting responsibility for one's actions is a character flaw.

Raised in poverty is no excuse for dishonest stealing from others.

And once one reaches the age of about 16-21, they have a choice whether to remain in poverty and do themselves a favor and shake off bad parenting mojo; one CAN make a choice to escape whatever background they came from.

Me and likely many on SF for example.

Your line of thinking reminds me of schools LOWERING expectations to get an A in a class or make graduation easier.

People/kids will rise to the level of what is EXPECTED of them. Like honesty.
Click to expand...
1,000 upvotes. Steel on target.
 

CooCooforCoCoPuffs said:
@HermitHogan wrote:

"What about the local auto repair shop that rips off customers on a regular basis? Or conmen who steal from the elderly? Or people who misrepresent a product they're selling or a service they're providing... people who commit fraud. And corporations that rip off the government, and we have to pay for it with our tax dollars?

White collar criminals often don't make the national news because it's not blatant theft and not frightening like hoards of people ripping off a department store and breaking windows, but it's even more egregious because they don't need to be dishonest; they just don't see a problem with it so they do it and most of the time, get away with it. And if they do get caught, they just have to pay a little fine and that's the end of it while poor people get sent to prison for far less."

IMHO two cannot be compared, Hermit. Why? Caveat emptor. I agree it is dishonest to try to rip people off, but not being ripped off is one's own responsibility and there are going to be shysters forever, rich or poor. It is a flaw of greed.

I can't think of anytime or reason anyone would need a reason to be dishonest. Rich or poor!
I think dishonesty such as stealing is a character flaw, just like not accepting responsibility for one's actions is a character flaw.

Raised in poverty is no excuse for dishonest stealing from others.

And once one reaches the age of about 16-21, they have a choice whether to remain in poverty and do themselves a favor and shake off bad parenting mojo; one CAN make a choice to escape whatever background they came from.

Me and likely many on SF for example.

Your line of thinking reminds me of schools LOWERING expectations to get an A in a class or make graduation easier.

People/kids will rise to the level of what is EXPECTED of them. Like honesty. Poverty is an opportunity to BUILD character or tear it down, whichever an individual chooses.
Click to expand...
Once in a blue moon low level White collar criminals make the news but agree rarely unless they truly push it and then push it even more .

'' 8th arrest made in Hammocks HOA fraud scheme involving $6 million theft''

8th arrest made in Hammocks HOA fraud scheme involving $6 million theft, officials say - WSVN 7News | Miami News, Weather, Sports | Fort Lauderdale
 
I went to the self checkout at Walmart and there was about $80 sticking out of the cash dispenser with no one around. I didn’t even touch it but called over the worker. She printed out the most recent transaction and clipped it to the money and thanked me. I hope it got back to the right person.

I wish just doing the right thing was instilled in the young people but I don’t think it is. I watch a lot of European tv shows, like on PBS, and I often wonder if people in other countries have a better moral compass. I see things like bicycles and strollers left in hallways, among other things and people there just expect that nothing will happen.
 
TinaM said:
I went to the self checkout at Walmart and there was about $80 sticking out of the cash dispenser with no one around. I didn’t even touch it but called over the worker. She printed out the most recent transaction and clipped it to the money and thanked me. I hope it got back to the right person.

I wish just doing the right thing was instilled in the young people but I don’t think it is. I watch a lot of European tv shows, like on PBS, and I often wonder if people in other countries have a better moral compass. I see things like bicycles and strollers left in hallways, among other things and people there just expect that nothing will happen.
Click to expand...
Our morals aren't fully developed until our late 20s, so that's part of it. Also, young people often don't have much money, so they have more financial incentive to be dishonest when they can get away with it than people with established careers.

Regarding the money you found at Walmart, I had something similar happen to me. I went to a self-checkout kiosk and noticed a $100 just laying there. I looked around to see if anyone was coming back for it, but there wasn't. So I picked it up and examined it more closely. Something didn't look right about it, so I turned it over and there was a bunch of religious crap warning about the end of times. I think it was Jehovah's witness propaganda or something. So I left it there for someone else to get a chuckle out of. :ROFLMAO:
 
@HermitHogan wrote: "Our morals aren't fully developed until our late 20s, so that's part of it."

I know for a fact this is simply not true.
Moral values have a genetic, environmental and social component. Moral values and knowing if something is right or wrong begins at between 16 MONTHS and 24 months; is almost complete by age 11.

@HermitHogan wrote: "Also, young people often don't have much money, so they have more financial incentive to be dishonest when they can get away with it than people with established careers."

WOW just WOW. Young people who are taught honesty and integrity consistently, by the age of 11 seldom stray from that moral teaching; in fact, part of moral teaching is doing what is RIGHT when authority is not around.

Thieving (and how to get away with) is a a LEARNED behavior, at a relatively YOUNG age. Thieving may happen due possibly to some peer pressure around age 12-14, but it is due to PEER experiences not due to poverty or not having enough money! :ROFLMAO:
 
CooCooforCoCoPuffs said:
@HermitHogan wrote: "Our morals aren't fully developed until our late 20s, so that's part of it."

I know for a fact this is simply not true.
Moral values have a genetic, environmental and social component. Moral values and knowing if something is right or wrong begins at between 16 MONTHS and 24 months; is almost complete by age 11.

@HermitHogan wrote: "Also, young people often don't have much money, so they have more financial incentive to be dishonest when they can get away with it than people with established careers."

WOW just WOW. Young people who are taught honesty and integrity consistently, by the age of 11 seldom stray from that moral teaching; in fact, part of moral teaching is doing what is RIGHT when authority is not around.

Thieving (and how to get away with) is a a LEARNED behavior, at a relatively YOUNG age. Thieving may happen due possibly to some peer pressure around age 12-14, but it is due to PEER experiences not due to poverty or not having enough money! :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
Research shows that moral development continues into the mid-to-late 20s, with age 27 often cited as when cognitive and moral reasoning capabilities fully mature. This aligns with neuroscience findings on prefrontal cortex development, which plays a key role in decision-making, impulse control, and ethical reasoning.

Childhood stress has an impact on moral development. Elevated cortisol levels during fetal development and childhood slow growth of the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus, and at the same time, accelerate amygdala growth. Stunted hippocampal volume often is associated with learning disabilities and memory issues. Larger than average amygdala often means emotional and anxiety issues.

Growing up in high crime-rate areas, unstable homes, or experiencing chronic stress can affect how moral reasoning develops. Chronic stress can lead to survival-based morality where actions are guided more by immediate consequences than ethical principles. People in high-crime environments might normalize actions that others would see as unethical. Also, those in unstable environments may develop a morality centered around loyalty to close groups rather than abstract moral principles.
 
Hmm, I honestly don't know what's happened to honesty... in the world around me, anyway.

As for "moral development"... I'm still learning.
 
HermitHogan said:
Research shows that moral development continues into the mid-to-late 20s, with age 27 often cited as when cognitive and moral reasoning capabilities fully mature. This aligns with neuroscience findings on prefrontal cortex development, which plays a key role in decision-making, impulse control, and ethical reasoning.

Childhood stress has an impact on moral development. Elevated cortisol levels during fetal development and childhood slow growth of the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus, and at the same time, accelerate amygdala growth. Stunted hippocampal volume often is associated with learning disabilities and memory issues. Larger than average amygdala often means emotional and anxiety issues.

Growing up in high crime-rate areas, unstable homes, or experiencing chronic stress can affect how moral reasoning develops. Chronic stress can lead to survival-based morality where actions are guided more by immediate consequences than ethical principles. People in high-crime environments might normalize actions that others would see as unethical. Also, those in unstable environments may develop a morality centered around loyalty to close groups rather than abstract moral principles.
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I do not doubt that moral "development" continues...it REFINES is what it does, and becomes more strong towards what gives the highest reward, psychologically and socially.

But I think you are crossing moral development and cognitive development, plus neurobiological principles of emotion, reward, reasoning, and consequences of stress hormones in fetal development and child development.

You are quoting something from theories about stress and moral reasoning, particularly as it relates to thievery.
Ethical principles are BEGUN with consequences before age 2; and if those consequences are not reinforced

What you are trying to say is that chronic stress causes kids to have poor moral reasoning.

I say it is hanging around with other kids that steal and who influence them, via peer pressure, watching adults who steal or do unethical things.

Not ALL people in high crime environments normalize actions that others see as unethical! Ask some people on SF...who may live in high crime environments.

The thieves and unethical actors may seek to normalize it..but the ethical people in the high crime areas certainly do NOT, just because they live in high crime districts!

Wherever you are getting your information from, I really would like to know. The loyalty referred to is loyalty due to being exposed to and in gangs, etc; and perhaps stealing is due to wanting to be accepted - peer pressure or a right of passage into a gang; as I mentioned in a previous post.

I still do not buy that poverty can be held up as an excuse for stealing.

Giving ANY excuse for theft is a slippery slope. Moral principles certainly are NOT "abstract". :ROFLMAO: A two year old understands moral principles of right and wrong.

By age 4 to 11 children understand it isn't consequences that guides but the harm it does others that guides them: conscience develops during the 7 years of brain crystallization that is usually complete by age 11, and certainly by puberty.

I gotta tell you, my graduate work field includes human cognitive and social development from birth to death.
Not saying am an expert, but pretty damn close and I've kept track of the research on it for years now.

My graduate exam had one task: Compare and contrast human cognition, intellectual reasoning and developmental theory using Piaget, Skinner, Erickson, Kohlberg, and Pavlov.

Please send me the source of your information, it sounds like someone has been trying to re-write long standing experts to fit some social engineering agenda to give people in poverty an excuse to steal, etc.
 
CooCooforCoCoPuffs said:
I do not doubt that moral "development" continues...it REFINES is what it does, and becomes more strong towards what gives the highest reward, psychologically and socially.

But I think you are crossing moral development and cognitive development, plus neurobiological principles of emotion, reward, reasoning, and consequences of stress hormones in fetal development and child development.

You are quoting something from theories about stress and moral reasoning, particularly as it relates to thievery.
Ethical principles are BEGUN with consequences before age 2; and if those consequences are not reinforced

What you are trying to say is that chronic stress causes kids to have poor moral reasoning.

I say it is hanging around with other kids that steal and who influence them, via peer pressure, watching adults who steal or do unethical things.

Not ALL people in high crime environments normalize actions that others see as unethical! Ask some people on SF...who may live in high crime environments.

The thieves and unethical actors may seek to normalize it..but the ethical people in the high crime areas certainly do NOT, just because they live in high crime districts!

Wherever you are getting your information from, I really would like to know. The loyalty referred to is loyalty due to being exposed to and in gangs, etc; and perhaps stealing is due to wanting to be accepted - peer pressure or a right of passage into a gang; as I mentioned in a previous post.

I still do not buy that poverty can be held up as an excuse for stealing.

Giving ANY excuse for theft is a slippery slope. Moral principles certainly are NOT "abstract". :ROFLMAO: A two year old understands moral principles of right and wrong.

By age 4 to 11 children understand it isn't consequences that guides but the harm it does others that guides them: conscience develops during the 7 years of brain crystallization that is usually complete by age 11, and certainly by puberty.

I gotta tell you, my graduate work field includes human cognitive and social development from birth to death.
Not saying am an expert, but pretty damn close and I've kept track of the research on it for years now.

My graduate exam had one task: Compare and contrast human cognition, intellectual reasoning and developmental theory using Piaget, Skinner, Erickson, Kohlberg, and Pavlov.

Please send me the source of your information, it sounds like someone has been trying to re-write long standing experts to fit some social engineering agenda to give people in poverty an excuse to steal, etc.
Click to expand...
Nobody said "poverty was an excuse to steal." It simply explains why some do, along with the other reasons I stated.
 
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TinaM said:
I went to the self checkout at Walmart and there was about $80 sticking out of the cash dispenser with no one around. I didn’t even touch it but called over the worker. She printed out the most recent transaction and clipped it to the money and thanked me. I hope it got back to the right person.

I wish just doing the right thing was instilled in the young people but I don’t think it is. I watch a lot of European tv shows, like on PBS, and I often wonder if people in other countries have a better moral compass. I see things like bicycles and strollers left in hallways, among other things and people there just expect that nothing will happen.
Click to expand...
The only thing that seems to trickle down these days is the dishonesty from the upper levels.
 

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