What is socialism?

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@ElCastor, when I replied to your post earlier, I wasn't disputing the information in the WaPo article. I was questioning your interpretation of that information that it was a failure of socialism. Maniacal, oppressive, murderous, power-hungry leaders who take control of all aspects of the economy may claim that it's socialism, but what it really is is government run capitalism. Norway is far more socialistic than any regimes under the rule of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et. al., but using them as examples of the failure of socialism is standard right-wing spin.
Stalin, Mao, and PolPot were all acting in the name of Socialism. Socialists inherently hate and fear those they view as the enemy, anyone who can be counted on to oppose their policies. As for Norway it is NOT, repeat NOT, Socialist. It has a thriving Capitalist Free Market economy combined with the generous trappings of a welfare state. Read all about it …
https://scandinaviafacts.com/is-norway-socialist/

I have visited Norway and was impressed by a country that in physical terms resembles New England. So why does the Norwegian system work so well? I think the answer is obvious, but you aren’t going to like it. The Norwegian population is ethnically, racially, historically, and intellectually consistent and in numbers considerably less than that of New York City. Obtaining universal agreement on selected welfare features like universal free education is a far easier task in Norway than in our far more diverse population.
 

Stalin, Mao, and PolPot were all acting in the name of Socialism. Socialists inherently hate and fear those they view as the enemy, anyone who can be counted on to oppose their policies.
Just like capitalists inherently hate and fear those they view as the enemy, anyone who can be counted on to oppose their policies. The U.S. has destroyed the economies of many countries out of hatred for their socialistic policies. Cuba, Guatemala, South Vietnam, and Iran are a few examples. Along with crippling sanctions, we also deposed their leaders... all because of our hatred and fear of socialism, plus to help out powerful corporations whose profits were hurt due to socialistic policies of those countries.

As for Norway it is NOT, repeat NOT, Socialist. It has a thriving Capitalist Free Market economy combined with the generous trappings of a welfare state. Read all about it …
https://scandinaviafacts.com/is-norway-socialist/
Norway is one of the most socialistic countries in the world. It's economy and government are considered Democratic Socialism since their policies are chosen in a democracy by the people.

Here's a brief description:
The Nordic model is underpinned by a mixed-market capitalist economic system that features high degrees of private ownership,[35][36] with the exception of Norway which includes a large number of state-owned enterprises and state ownership in publicly listed firms.[6]​
The Nordic model is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large percentage of the population employed by the public sector, which amounts to roughly 30% of the work force, in areas such as healthcare and higher education. In Norway, Finland, and Sweden, many companies and/or industries are state-run or state-owned[37][38][39][40] like utilities, mail, rail transport, airlines, electrical power industry, fossil fuels, chemical industry, steel mill, electronics industry, machine industry, aerospace manufacturer, shipbuilding, and the arms industry.[41] In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies", while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."[8][42] Some economists have referred to the Nordic economic model as a form of "cuddly capitalism", with low levels of inequality, generous welfare states, and reduced concentration of top incomes, contrasting it with the more "cut-throat capitalism" of the United States, which has high levels of inequality and a larger concentration of top incomes, among others social inequalities.[15][43][44]​

I have visited Norway and was impressed by a country that in physical terms resembles New England. So why does the Norwegian system work so well? I think the answer is obvious, but you aren’t going to like it. The Norwegian population is ethnically, racially, historically, and intellectually consistent and in numbers considerably less than that of New York City. Obtaining universal agreement on selected welfare features like universal free education is a far easier task in Norway than in our far more diverse population.
That's true. I've posted something similar previously, probably in this same thread. It's one of the problems with the U.S. economy and government. Some call it a feature, some call it a bug. :ROFLMAO:
 
Once again, Norway is Not Socialist! It is a thriving competitive competitive free market capitalist economy whose small intelligent high quality population has wisely adopted welfare policies and institutions that function well in their uniquely compatible environment. The United States is unfortunately not Norway, but properly designed and sold, which our would be Socialists seem incapable of, many of the welfare trappings of Norway could well work here.
 

That's true. I've posted something similar previously, probably in this same thread. It's one of the problems with the U.S. economy and government. Some call it a feature, some call it a bug. :ROFLMAO:
How about the history and culture of Norway plus choices made after WWII?

"The Nordic Model traces its origins back to a 1930s compromise between workers and employers. It was spearheaded by farmers—which was how most people in the region, and indeed most of the world, made their money back then—and the workers parties that represented them.

"The key feature of the Nordic Model is the social partnership. That's centralised coordination of wage negotiation and rights between employers and workers.

"Agreements such as the Danish Kanslergade Agreement in 1933 and the Swedish Saltsjöbaden Agreement of 1938 set out a means for employers and unions to bargain on matters such as wages. In addition, both employers and workers have a framework to lobby the government to come to an arrangement on legislation affecting employment in terms of conditions and regulation.

"One outcome of this, that certainly diverts from the left-wing playbook, is that there is no national minimum wage in Sweden, Denmark or Norway.


https://www.lifeinnorway.net/scandinavian-socialism/

And adding to that, unionization of labor in Norway stands at 51%!!!!!

I think that is key.

By the way, Scandinavian counties seem to say that Nordic countries that have "cuddly capitalism" are not examples of democratic socialism, but rather are cases of social democracy.

Interesting too how so many people see the word "social" in that and instantly assume it means "socialism". Yeah like "social media" is a form of socialism? A "social club" is socialist? LOL!!!
 
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Ben, here is what Norwegians say about that ...

Is Norway a socialist country?
I never said Norway is a socialist country, although I did say that they have a democratic socialism system, which may not be accurate since democratic socialists are anti-capitalism and Norway does have elements of capitalism along with elements of socialism in what is known as a mixed economy. The U.S. also has a mixed economy. Norway just has a lot more socialist programs than we do as I detailed above in this post:
https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/what-is-socialism.61207/post-2273282

There are few successful pure socialistic countries but there are no successful pure free market countries. Bolivia is considered a relatively successful socialist country. Its political and economic systems are considered democratic socialism.
In recent history, Bolivia has consistently led Latin America in measures of economic growth, fiscal stability and foreign reserves.[140] Bolivia's estimated 2012 gross domestic product (GDP) totaled $27.43 billion at official exchange rate and $56.14 billion at purchasing power parity. Despite a series of mostly political setbacks, between 2006 and 2009 the Morales administration spurred growth higher than at any point in the preceding 30 years. The growth was accompanied by a moderate decrease in inequality.[141] Under Morales, per capita GDP doubled from US$1,182 in 2006 to US$2,238 in 2012. GDP growth under Morales averaged 5 percent a year, and in 2014 only Panama and the Dominican Republic performed better in all of Latin America.[142] Bolivia's nominal GDP increased from 11.5 billion in 2006 to 41 billion in 2019.[143]
Bolivia in 2016 boasted the highest proportional rate of financial reserves of any nation in the world, with Bolivia's rainy day fund totaling some US$15 billion or nearly two-thirds of total annual GDP, up from a fifth of GDP in 2005. Even the IMF was impressed by Morales' fiscal prudence.[142]
Here's more on Bolivia:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1cb3ae-e6f6-11e9-b0a6-3d03721b85ef_story.html
 
Why do you not see that it makes excellent capitalist sense, when conditions grow negatively and the public begins to object and resist them, to implement a carefully designed and strategically created set of programs that offer some benefits to the public to buy them off and put their potential for rebellion to rest? ..... --to buy more time for capitalism?

Remember, FDR at the end of his last term said "I saved capitalism".
I don't buy any of this, it is much more complicated than this...
 
Here is a definition that might be helpful in our discussion. What we consider capitalism is a market economy. Socialism is a command economy. What are known as "blue laws" are part of a traditional economy.
  • A market economy is one in which almost all economic activity happens in markets with little or no interference by the government. Because of the lack of government intervention, this system is also often referred to as laissez-faire, which is French for 'let well alone'.
  • A command economy is one in which all economic activity is directed by the government.
  • A traditional economy is one in which production and distribution are handled along the lines of long-standing cultural traditions. For example, until the caste system was abolished in India during the last century, the production of nearly every good and service was permitted only by someone born into the appropriate caste. Similarly, in medieval Europe, people were usually unable to be part of the government or attain high military rank unless they were born into the nobility.
Because nearly every modern economy is a mixture of these three pure forms, most modern economies fall into the very inclusive category called mixed economies. With the exception of a few isolated traditional societies, however, the traditional economy part of the mixture has tended to decline in significance because most production has shifted to markets and because traditional economic restrictions on things like age and gender have become less important (and more illegal).

The result is that most mixed economies today are a mixture of the other two pure types: the command economy and the market economy. The mixtures that you find in most countries typically feature governments that mostly allow markets to determine what's produced, but that also mix in limited interventions in an attempt to make improvements over what the market would do if left to its own devices.

I assume business regulations fall under the category of command economy.
 
So, you do lie! You said you put me on ignore...or did you forget?
So you are stupid! You think there's some rule or logic that says I can't check to see anything you've said from then on, . . . --including when it involves an attack on me! LOL!!!!
 
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Here is a definition that might be helpful in our discussion. What we consider capitalism is a market economy. Socialism is a command economy. What are known as "blue laws" are part of a traditional economy. .....
  • A market economy is one in which almost all economic activity happens in markets with little or no interference by the government. Because of the lack of government intervention, this system is also often referred to as laissez-faire, which is French for 'let well alone'.
  • A command economy is one in which all economic activity is directed by the government.
  • A traditional economy is one in which production and distribution are handled along the lines of long-standing cultural traditions. For example, until the caste system was abolished in India during the last century, the production of nearly every good and service was permitted only by someone born into the appropriate caste. Similarly, in medieval Europe, people were usually unable to be part of the government or attain high military rank unless they were born into the nobility.
Because nearly every modern economy is a mixture of these three pure forms, most modern economies fall into the very inclusive category called mixed economies. With the exception of a few isolated traditional societies, however, the traditional economy part of the mixture has tended to decline in significance because most production has shifted to markets and because traditional economic restrictions on things like age and gender have become less important (and more illegal).

The result is that most mixed economies today are a mixture of the other two pure types: the command economy and the market economy. The mixtures that you find in most countries typically feature governments that mostly allow markets to determine what's produced, but that also mix in limited interventions in an attempt to make improvements over what the market would do if left to its own devices.

I assume business regulations fall under the category of command economy.
BUT!! .......

There is no "pure" economy ...... --an economy that lacks reforms and lacks modifications. There is no capitalist economy that is as pure as the textbook ideal. Education very often involves learning the ideal first, then studying variations. Learning to fly a fighter jet as taught by an instructor is a process of learning the ideal. Later, with experience, a person can vary practice into variations like stunt flying and methods of the test pilot, and yet they are still jet pilots; they are not qualified to operate high-speed rail or even a freight train.

Again, there is no ideal form of capitalism on earth except in textbooks. And yet there are many forms of capitalism, complete with modifications. They remain systems in which individuals may create privately-owned businesses for their own private profit. Capitalist textbooks say that is the minimal definition of capitalism. Private ownership for private profit can never be socialism, which is defined by socialists as a system of worker ownership that bans private ownership and private profit. And so we see there is no socialist country on this planet. There are countries that have tried, an some that continue to try, to create a socialist system but none have gotten there yet. Try naming one.

In ancient Roman slave systems there were cases of people raising crops on land owned by others for an established agreement, yet the system was not feudalism.

In ancient Roman slave systems there were people manufacturing tools and weapons for others to use, and they did so for an agreed-upon benefit. Yet the system was not capitalism.

In feudalism there were private businesses, yet the system remained feudalism.

In capitalism we have had sharecroppers and slave systems, and yet we did not have a slave society. We have the equivalent of slavery today in many prisons, and yet this is not a slave society.

So what is the deciding factor? Logically and obviously the deciding factor is the predominant economic model plus the dominant government orientation in what it predominantly facilitates, protects, and promotes.

A society's economic system is indicated by it's dominant economic form.

Roman society was not a mix. It was a slavery system with non-slave supportive activities.

Feudal society was not a mix. It was predominantly a feudal system with non-agricultural activities in support of the feudal system.

Capitalist society is not a mix. It is predominantly a capitalist system with supportive, socially-beneficial programs. So it is identified as "capitalism".

Did the US begin a path to socialism when FDR signed the New Deal and other programs into law? Let him answer that. At the end of his term he said "I saved capitalism".

Capitalism and socialism are antagonistic. They are mutually exclusive. There cannot be an economic system that facilitates, promotes, and protects private ownership of business for private profit, AND also facilitates, promotes, and protects a ban on private ownership and private profit and/or collective ownership. They conflict because they each encroach on the other in detrimental ways. Hence, in the end, one of them would dominate and exclude the other.

We live in class society. We have a class of people who own and operate and control corporations and other business types for profit, and we have another class of people who only have their labor to sell. So all these questions have a class character to their existence and function. And the question then, is "what class is being served and how?"

The notion of capitalism consisting of a "mixture" of capitalism and socialism contributes to confusion. If it were true, then how can we have a socialist society? The answer would be "by installing more socially-beneficial reforms to capitalism". IOW by having a system increasingly dominated by socially-beneficial programs and policies. But FDR tried that and look where that is today, which the Republican Party openly stating a plan to eliminate even Social Security and Medicare! And since FDR the public has had to constantly fight to hold onto the gains of FDR's time.... and gradually lose them, one by one. Clearly socially-beneficial reforms didn't produce a viable mix of economies.

Any attempt to establish a socialist economy would be fiercely fought by capitalists, as it has been even when the attempt was not in the US, but in another country. And socially-beneficial reforms are temporary.
 
The idea that capitalism and socialism cannot coexist is based on extremes-total capitalism OR total socialism. There's nothing in the rule book that prevents using capitalist theories and approaches when beneficial, nor using socialist theories, when appropriate. We do use hot and cold running water. It's rather inane to dismiss a working solution to a problem because of a theoretical extreme.
 
The idea that capitalism and socialism cannot coexist is based on extremes-total capitalism OR total socialism. There's nothing in the rule book that prevents using capitalist theories and approaches when beneficial, nor using socialist theories, when appropriate. We do use hot and cold running water. It's rather inane to dismiss a working solution to a problem because of a theoretical extreme.
You're posting your own opinions. I posted characterization of known history. And BTW I said basically what you said about coexistence of the two things, but I provided a logical explanation based on facts and history. I'd enjoy reading your logical and historical refutations of the major points of my post if you have any.
 
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There is no "pure" system and never has been. Ancient Roman slave society had scattered elements of feudalism and capitalism. Feudal society had a few elements of capitalism. Think of the blacksmith who made weapons, armor, and other items for society.

Capitalism has had elements of slave society and feudal society. And yet our system, even during days of legal slavery, was not a slave society.

The decisive factor is the question "what is dominant and most facilitated and protected and accommodated by government".

We have about 600 workers' co-ops in the US today. I like to call them "embryos of socialism". And yet our economy is not socialism. It is most definitely capitalism. Note that a system that facilitates and protects the hiring of employees for private profit in privately-owned businesses is not compatible with a system that facilitates and protects worker ownership and bans the hiring of employees for private profit.

Any newly formed socialist economy would have some privately owned businesses for private profit, --for a while. But they would be phased out over time and they would at no point be dominant.
 
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The idea that capitalism and socialism cannot coexist is based on extremes-total capitalism OR total socialism. There's nothing in the rule book that prevents using capitalist theories and approaches when beneficial, nor using socialist theories, when appropriate. We do use hot and cold running water. It's rather inane to dismiss a working solution to a problem because of a theoretical extreme.
I was just now rereading some of the replies on this page and I had another thought about your post. You’re right about using what works and I don’t think I commented adequately on your post.

When socialism is established that will not instantly switch the economy from capitalism to a worker owned-and-controlled socialist system. The transition will be gradual with the most essential changes coming first. In fact, in his “Critique of the Gotha Programme” Marx said "What we have to deal with here is a socialist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges."

The strategy then being to use what works, fix what needs to be changed, and thus improve with positive change.
 
"The goal of socialism is communism."
Vladimir Lenin

Another quote, not by Lenin, but along the same lines is "Softly Softly Catchee Monkey".........or, as the Arabs might say, "Shway, Shway"... a little bit at a time.
 
The original point of socialism was to curtail the rich from oppressing the poor to finance their luxury lifestyles while preserving the status quo. :unsure:
 
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