What is socialism?

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My understanding is that if I pay my share of taxes, I will benefit by receiving certain benefits, when I need them, and being able to share in these programs>>>
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What angers me is when some people and corporations do not pay their fair share, or in some cases do not pay any taxes, but still benefit from these programs.

55 major companies paid $0 in federal taxes on their 2020 profits: report https://fortune.com/2021/04/02/55-companies-paid-zero-in-federal-2020-taxes-itep-report/
These types of things on this list are not what we in the UK would call "socialist" programs. These are socialised programs. We perceive the word socialist & socialised as two very different things.
 

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https://www.lifeinsweden.net/is-sweden-socialist/


"The economy of Sweden is an open market style with intense competition and high liberalization. Financially, Swedes are taxed at a much higher rate (almost 62 percent on personal income, and 25 percent on consumer purchases) but their money is redistributed through public systems. Pension, health care, unemployment insurance, education, child care, leaves of absence from work, and public holidays are all supported through tax money. These systems have traditionally been seen as coming from socialist policies, but they are simply benefits that Swedes receive from their higher rates of taxation. The good that Sweden has taken from supposedly socialist ideas does not make them a socialist country in the way that many view socialism. The Sweden that exists today simply is not a socialist Sweden. So when asked, “is Sweden socialist?” your answer can be a resounding “no.”"
 
One factor, generally overlooked by the unfortunates 'sucked in', is that those behind the push for what they start off calling 'Socialism' are looking further down the road.....considerably further......they are/were to politics what Bernie Madoff was to investing.

I'll wager that the average person who supported the Russian Revolution wasn't thinking of Gulags, the Cheka, Dachas and roads no-one else drove on for those in power, but rather the promise of a piece of the pie..........turned out that said 'pie' was "In the sky" and they weren't going up there.
 

That is communism, not socialism.
In what way might we differentiate communism from socialism?

The best I've come up with is that communism is Marx/Engel's description of a perfect socialist society, combined with a historical theory of the tension between workers/capitalists.

It's therefore a specific socialist reaction against capitalism.

Socialism is simpler, more organic. It's closer to what traditional family structures have evolved to, with a combining of assets to be shared for the benefit of that particular group (family).

I've thought about this a lot. In college I was of course a big fan of socialism because, well, that was the way to think, back then.

Later, I rejected socialism as even being possible, before I considered that no, it was possible, and it's what the Plains Indians practiced, and what many primitive societies still practice. And it may be true that all human societies at one point passed thru a socialist stage.

Further, I realized that the core indispensible attributes of socialism are surpluses and trust. If it gets bad enough, and it's strictly hand-to-mouth, this puts practical pressure on the system for simple survival everyday. Of course I'm talking about very dire times--extended famine. Something that human cooperation cannot overcome. It is strictly individual survival.

Now assuming modest, regular surplus, which is collected and distributed for the good of all, you MUST trust all participants in the system. Trust those who handle collection of the surpluses, and those who receive more from the surpluses than they have contributed. You can only do this thru personal visibility of the entire process. You have to be able to see that the collectors do not syphon off some for themselves or favored others, and that the recipients really and truly do need extra help due to any of a number of intuitively understandable reasons: old age, lack of health/intellect, etc.

In short, if it appears that they are capable of contribution, they are expected to contribute, otherwise they are of special status, which now immediately suggests that the members of the society are not equal. Once this is recognized, mistrust sets in and must be overcome by persuasion, external coercion (a group of collectors), or internal coercion (guilt).

This seldom comes to this at the family/clan/tribal levels, and can still work at a "national" level for uniformly ethnic states, where all are of the same "type" and there is no easily discernible difference in background. The less closely related the individuals are by ethnicity/race/etc., the more important it is that the surpluses be large.

But in large multi-ethnic states there's a natural mistrust of others who are perceived to be different, so there will be suspicion about how much they contribute and how much they receive as compared to other groups.

Because of the way political power is passed here in the US, by popular vote of some sort, it has been to the benefit of unscrupulous, short-sighted, or ideologically narrow political leadership to make sharp distinctions between the various groups inhabiting the US. From this follows cultivation of grievances against groups other than one's own.

So ultimately, there is insufficient mutual trust to have a voluntary socialist society in the US. Groups who consistently contribute tend to believe that groups who consistently receive more than they contribute are gaming the system, while those who receive think that those who contribute are hiding or withholding "their fair share", and have very likely cheated in some fashion to have gotten to their present financial position.

If this is accurate, any large-scale socialist programs require external coercion and/or individual guilt to keep them going.
 
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As anyone who follows this thread now knows, there are endless definitions of socialism. For me it is government ownership of the means of production, distribution, transportation and residential housing. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, this definition has failed to work, as shown by the necessity and success of free enterprise in China and Eastern Europe. So what is it? I believe there is no definitive definition, just a lot of opinions and wishful thinking.
 
As anyone who follows this thread now knows, there are endless definitions of socialism. For me it is government ownership of the means of production, distribution, transportation and residential housing. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, this definition has failed to work, as shown by the necessity and success of free enterprise in China and Eastern Europe. So what is it? I believe there is no definitive definition, just a lot of opinions and wishful thinking.
Hah!

Humans are an unruly lot, aren't they?

There's no satisfactory fit at this stage in our evolution. Public sentiment appears cyclical in nature.
 
As anyone who follows this thread now knows, there are endless definitions of socialism. For me it is government ownership of the means of production, distribution, transportation and residential housing. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, this definition has failed to work, as shown by the necessity and success of free enterprise in China and Eastern Europe. So what is it? I believe there is no definitive definition, just a lot of opinions and wishful thinking.
That's the classic definition of Communism.
 
https://www.lifeinsweden.net/is-sweden-socialist/


"The economy of Sweden is an open market style with intense competition and high liberalization. Financially, Swedes are taxed at a much higher rate (almost 62 percent on personal income, and 25 percent on consumer purchases) but their money is redistributed through public systems. Pension, health care, unemployment insurance, education, child care, leaves of absence from work, and public holidays are all supported through tax money. These systems have traditionally been seen as coming from socialist policies, but they are simply benefits that Swedes receive from their higher rates of taxation. The good that Sweden has taken from supposedly socialist ideas does not make them a socialist country in the way that many view socialism. The Sweden that exists today simply is not a socialist Sweden. So when asked, “is Sweden socialist?” your answer can be a resounding “no.”"
Hah!

The taxation is therefore like an enforced savings program run by a trusted administrator.

I think that ideally, there has to be a resounding public buy-in for a category of subsistence needs that in the case of any individual it can be objectively shown that the individual cannot provide for him/herself. This would be a sort of "from those who can to those who cannot" category open to only those who objectively cannot.

All other public programs would need to be available to all members of society equally, regardless of assets/abilities. These would be like roads, etc.
 
This is an interesting thread for many reasons.

WRT Marx, it's important to note that while I was growing up in the 50s, communism had about as much positive association as cannibalism, and Karl Marx might well have been Charles Manson's great grandfather, in terms of reputation.

But Marx did a great job in clearly identifying the social tension between those with wealth and those without. Dead on the money.

Where he fell down was in his prescriptive ideas. This idea of cooperative and benevolent "workers' councils" deciding on how to manage production, this never came to pass, anywhere, so far as I know. Marx greatly misjudged basic human nature, and characteristics like ego and personal ambition, competition--which ironically are important attributes of capitalists.

So one should not simply discount content because the purveyor of the content has a bad reputation. S/he may well have some solid ideas/observations.

It's up to us to weed thru them and analyze them for validity.
 
"The goal of socialism is communism."
Vladimir Lenin

Another quote, not by Lenin, but along the same lines is "Softly Softly Catchee Monkey".........or, as the Arabs might say, "Shway, Shway"... a little bit at a time.
huh? Care to spell that out in clear language? I think I detect misunderstanding followed by incorrect assumptions.
 
https://www.lifeinsweden.net/is-sweden-socialist/


"The economy of Sweden is an open market style with intense competition and high liberalization. Financially, Swedes are taxed at a much higher rate (almost 62 percent on personal income, and 25 percent on consumer purchases) but their money is redistributed through public systems. Pension, health care, unemployment insurance, education, child care, leaves of absence from work, and public holidays are all supported through tax money. These systems have traditionally been seen as coming from socialist policies, but they are simply benefits that Swedes receive from their higher rates of taxation. The good that Sweden has taken from supposedly socialist ideas does not make them a socialist country in the way that many view socialism. The Sweden that exists today simply is not a socialist Sweden. So when asked, “is Sweden socialist?” your answer can be a resounding “no.”"
THANK YOU! That is an excellent take-down of an all-too-common confused way of thinking. In fact, here’s a mystery for any American who disagrees: FDR established more socially-beneficial programs for Americans than any other president, but at the end of his last term he proudly stated “I saved capitalism”.

How can that be explained if the proliferation of socially-beneficial programs is the equivalent of establishing socialism?
 
THANK YOU! That is an excellent take-down of an all-too-common confused way of thinking. In fact, here’s a mystery for any American who disagrees: FDR established more socially-beneficial programs for Americans than any other president, but at the end of his last term he proudly stated “I saved capitalism”.

How can that be explained if the proliferation of socially-beneficial programs is the equivalent of establishing socialism?
but at the end of his last term he proudly stated “I saved capitalism”.

First, can we simply take someone's word when making a claim without testing or examining it?

But let's assume the claim is in some way correct. How can this claim be make sense in the historical perspective?

I think it can, but would like to hear the thoughts of others.
 
huh? Care to spell that out in clear language? I think I detect misunderstanding followed by incorrect assumptions.
OK...(typing slowly here)....you tell the gullible that they're getting 'A', and you slowly spoon feed them for a little while...then, one morning at 3 a.m. there's a knock on the door....it's Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.
 
OK...(typing slowly here)....you tell the gullible that they're getting 'A', and you slowly spoon feed them for a little while...then, one morning at 3 a.m. there's a knock on the door....it's Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.
After the breakup of the Soviet Union, it kinda amused me to think that if it was true that Lenin ever said something like:

"When it comes time to hang the capitalists, they will sell us the rope."

when the time did come, they didn't have the money to buy it.
 
" The main difference is that under communism, most property and economic resources are owned and controlled by the state (rather than individual citizens); under socialism, all citizens share equally in economic resources as allocated by a democratically-elected government."
https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-communism-and-socialism-195448
Nathan, do yourself a really, really big favor and toss your link to that website into your trash folder. The quote you posted is horribly, egregiously wrong! I can tell you right now that the writer of that article is confusing two entirely different uses of the word “communism”. But he is not referring to any notion of a communist society!

I really don’t want to lecture unless invited to do so, so for now just let me say that if you spend 5 minutes reading what Marx said about communism and what it is, or even check with wikipedia(!!), you will find that a future, theoretical communist society will be BY DEFINITION classless and stateless. So if it would be stateless, how can that author of that article say “under communism most property and economic resources are owned and controlled by the state”???? What “state”??? There would be none!!

Now, if you like I can explain how Marx said communism would develop and that will prove what I just said. It will also prove something quite remarkable that very few people who are not very familiar with Marx’s writings know. In fact it is often met with near-violent rejection and cursing and accusations. And here it is: communist society cannot be imposed by force or edict! And I can prove that, too, to anyone with an understanding of classes and class consciousness.
 
That's the classic definition of Communism.
Maybe so, but not a heck of a lot of difference between the two.

Here’s the Merriam-Webster definition of socialism …
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
 
but at the end of his last term he proudly stated “I saved capitalism”.

First, can we simply take someone's word when making a claim without testing or examining it?

But let's assume the claim is in some way correct. How can this claim be make sense in the historical perspective?

I think it can, but would like to hear the thoughts of others.
You may not get them. Look, it’s really quite simple. At the time there was a large labor union membership, there was a large and popular communist party, and there was one or more popular socialist party(s). And they were very active and protesting the treatment of workers with 12 and 14 hour days, weekend work, child labor, and very abusive treatment. The police and government had utilized Pinkerton thugs to attack and even kill workers who were on strike.

Along came FDR and he told corporate leaders they had better accept the reforms he offered because if they didn’t, the communist party had other ideas for them.

So FDR established programs and labor laws to alleviate much of the strife and general anger over conditions. He got the communist and socialist parties to “stand down” in return for his socially-beneficial programs. He calmed the waters. He saved capitalism.

If you can’t take someone’s word for it, look into it.
 

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