What is socialism?

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oldaunt said:
Socialism is the AXE body spray of political ideology. It never does what it claims to do, but people too young to know better keep buying it anyway.
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That’s hardly true. Let’s do this . . . tell me, since the “official name” of N. Korea is “The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” (DPRK), do you believe it is a democracy or a republic?
 

Irwin said:
I wasn't really trying to start a debate on the merits of socialism; I was just looking for a good definition. :unsure:
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The definition will be determined by the preferences of the source and what serves their interests. An anti-socialist source will, of course, give you a negative and troubling “definition”. And I don’t know of any objective non-anti-socialist source. So I think if you want the real meaning of it you need to go to a source that favors socialism. But to trust such a source you would probably need to spend a good year researching and learning some history. Maybe more than a year. I’ve been doing it since 1973. And I think I can give you a definition that would be hard to refute with factual truth. So here it is…..

* Socialism is the antithesis of capitalism. There can be no such thing as a “mix” of the two.

* Socialism puts an end to private profit based on private ownership of the “means of production”.

* Socialism has always been promoted and advanced as “the liberation of the working class from capitalist exploitation”.

* Karl Marx said “democracy is the road to socialism” because democracy is government of the people, by the people, for the people as socialism must be, by definition, or it isn’t “socialism”.

* Socialism is workers’ collective democratic ownership and control of the means of production, by definition.
 
AI and robotics are eventually going to render the working class obsolete, as well as much of the professional class. At that point, capitalism will be an anachronism, as will socialism, communism, and every other kind of economic system in place right now. We're going to have to come up with a new system that will provide people with a place to live and food to eat, but what will be their reason to live? Perhaps we'll just live to fight each other. That seems to be what we're best at.
 
Casting Socialism as the antithesis of Capitalism is not helpful. Look at the Mondragon corporation in Spain. It is entirely employee owned by over 84,000 workers. It is the 7th largest company in Spain in terms of asset turnover. Recently in the US the owner of Bob's Red Mill just gave the entire company to the employees.

There is clearly a difference between the US and the Nordic countries in terms of the greater emphasis on government run social structures, e.g., healthcare. I would call that socialist in the sense of all citizens contributing towards the good of all, regardless of whether each individual benefits personally. But those countries are fundamentally capitalist in their economic systems.
 
I don't want to jump into the middle of a heated debate, the fundamentals of which I'm not solid enough on to do so. However, communism and even anarchy have interested, fascinated me. On research (meaning a quick Google) I've found that it is actually socialism, rather than communism, I find to be a beautiful ideal, on paper, but not so much in practical application.

I know so little about this, so grain of salt and all that. But I think that, as lovely as these utopias we can create in thought experiments might be, we are simply not far enough along in our social/intellectual evolutionary arc to support them. In short, where power can be taken, it will be. Sadly.
 
Murrmurr said:
Socialism is the ideal government for an ideal society. It hasn't really worked because it hasn't yet found an ideal society.
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I think it takes more than an ideal society.

To maximize social good we need some way of identifying the right jobs for people and the right people for jobs. And then we need a way to incentivize people to do their best. I think capitalism will always do a better job of that than socialism. Its just human nature.
 
Alligatorob said:
I think it takes more than an ideal society.

To maximize social good we need some way of identifying the right jobs for people and the right people for jobs. And then we need a way to incentivize people to do their best. I think capitalism will always do a better job of that than socialism. Its just human nature.
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It's human nature, right now. That's what I'm trying to get across when saying that this, our current situation in that capitalism may or may not be the only workable (well doable) social structure is because we as a race are not yet ready for a higher form of society.
 
Ceege said:
My understanding is that if I pay my share of taxes, I will benefit by receiving certain benefits, when I need them, and being able to share in these programs>>>
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What angers me is when some people and corporations do not pay their fair share, or in some cases do not pay any taxes, but still benefit from these programs.

55 major companies paid $0 in federal taxes on their 2020 profits: report https://fortune.com/2021/04/02/55-companies-paid-zero-in-federal-2020-taxes-itep-report/
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There is the buzz word 'some' people use.....'Fair Share'.......What is that really? That is a code phrase that means a tax rate that a group people feel is fair, not what is truly fair.
If paying 'fair share' was truly in the sprite of the phrase, then successful people would pay less taxes, seeing as the top 1% pay 80% of the taxes. And those companies you mentioned? They are what keeps peoples retirement funds going so the elderly can live a normal life, and those 'corporations' employ 100's of thousands of families that live in nice homes, raise their families, afford braces for their children and send their kids to school and live the American dream. "fair share" is just another democrat buzz word that is not fair at all.
And Rey Marchayekhi, the author of the article, is a hardcore Democrat.
 
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Alligatorob said:
I think it takes more than an ideal society.

To maximize social good we need some way of identifying the right jobs for people and the right people for jobs. And then we need a way to incentivize people to do their best. I think capitalism will always do a better job of that than socialism. Its just human nature.
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Socialism is pretty much what communes had back in the 60s, here in the US. It's true that some where chosen to farm and others were chosen to build a school and such, but people weren't chosen for these jobs willy-nilly. This one and that one stepped forward and said "I'll farm" or "I'm a carpenter" and "I can cook" and whatever.

By "ideal society" I meant ideal people.

If I remember correctly, capitalism called, and commune's numbers declined rapidly within a decade. Most of us want to achieve personal success. Indeed, that's human nature.
 
Murrmurr said:
Socialism is pretty much what communes had back in the 60s, here in the US. It's true that some where chosen to farm and others were chosen to build a school and such, but people weren't chosen for these jobs willy-nilly. This one and that one stepped forward and said "I'll farm" or "I'm a carpenter" and "I can cook" and whatever.

By "ideal society" I meant ideal people.

If I remember correctly, capitalism called, and commune's numbers declined rapidly within a decade. Most of us want to achieve personal success. Indeed, that's human nature.
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Wouldn't it be wonderful if a person's sense of success and fullfillment came from the success of the whole? - I know I'm just dreaming, but still, maybe we'll get there eventually.
 
Medusa said:
Wouldn't it be wonderful if a person's sense of success and fullfillment came from the success of the whole? - I know I'm just dreaming, but still, maybe we'll get there eventually.
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I think it does, for some people, at least in part.

I know I am happier knowing my friends and neighbors are successful and happy. I suspect a lot of us are. The question is what are we willing to sacrifice to make that happen.
 
Alligatorob said:
I think it does, for some people, at least in part.

I know I am happier knowing my friends and neighbors are successful and happy. I suspect a lot of us are. The question is what are we willing to sacrifice to make that happen.
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That's the thing, it's not that we don't have the capacity to take pleasure in other's successes within us, as individuals. What we need is to rise to that level consistently, as a race.
 

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