What is your perspective on American history?

People are showing their biases in this thread without even knowing it because of the way history was written during the Cold War. People equate the economic and political systems of the Soviet Union and China to Marxism and Communism, when what they actually had wasn't at all communism. The Soviet Union had and China has state run capitalism — not communism or Marxism. Marxism/communism means that the workers control the means of production. Countries that we designate as communistic have dictators; the people or workers have no control of anything, so communism in those countries is impossible. A dictator is incompatible with communism.

Schools should teach what Marxism really is. The flour I recently bought — King Arthur brand — is made at a co-op which is 100% employee owned. That is Marxism. The flour is top rated by users and testers, but of course, they can't call themselves Marxists because of the negative connotations of that word because of all the disinformation and fear mongering.

Co-ops are gaining in popularity because capitalism is failing society, and it's failing spectacularly, which is evidenced by the masses of homeless people in most major cities, skyrocketing inflation, housing shortages, food shortages, environmental disasters, and many other problems that don't exist in more modern nations such as Scandinavian countries that have highly socialized economies.
 

Murrmurr said:
It varies from state to state, but most public schools have tossed out the old textbooks on American History and teach only what are considered the most relevant and imortant facts, like when and how the US gov't was established, the most crucial wars and conflicts the US was involved in (mainly nation-building ones), the establishment of state-hoods, and important discoveries and inventions.
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Yes, when I was a kid I was taught that the Catholic Church is the one true religion and go enter another church of a different faith was to commit a SIN. Of course, in this multi-national and multi-cultural and multi-religious world the only people who believe that their religion is the one true religion are fanatics and I would stay away from them.
 
mellowyellow said:
I think we all started out a bit like China – brainwashing school children into believing only the positives and the very best of our history – wiping out lots of the nasty stuff you discover later on. Is it worth getting upset about? Probably not.
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I believe that every country does this. Not only the US but Canada, England, Russia, China, etc. We are always taught that we are so good and so wonderful and all the bad guys are somewhere else; like Russia or China.
 

Irwin said:
People equate the economic and political systems of the Soviet Union and China to Marxism and Communism, when what they actually had wasn't at all communism.
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You make a good point, the Soviet and Chinese systems were totalitarian and maybe communist but more totalitarian.

Communism does not require dictatorship, it could work in a democracy, if the majority supported it. Parts of Italy, like Bologna, have been fairly communist, but nothing like the Soviets or Chinese.

I think both communism and its cousin socialism are not sound economic systems. I am a believer in capitalism. However communism or socialism are ok by me, if that's what the majority of the people want. Just won't get my vote here.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
Unfortunately history belongs to the victors, and victors are always the 'good' guys. I think there's enough real history in "history" to give an inkling of the truth. Myths are just as vital to a nation as the truth. I'm a Civil War nut. If you read the accounts of the regiments, they were in three different places on the battlefield at the same time, and the outcome of the war rested on what they did. History is what people remember, and people's memories are not infallible. Biases, egos, and agendas are factors in history as well as the facts.
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Here is a good book on the Civil War, I have it in my Library, not sure you will be able to find it, Copyrighted 1888
 

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fuzzybuddy said:
I'm a Civil War nut. If you read the accounts of the regiments, they were in three different places on the battlefield at the same time
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Yep, lots of versions of things out there. My great-great grandfather William Daly Burtchaell was a captain serving under General Pickett in the infamous charge at Gettysburg.

He was captured and remained a prisoner for the rest of the war. We of course have many family oral histories about him, in some he was promoted to colonel, LOL. However he left a diary and some writings of his own, I think they are more accurate. Here is a wiki link to his page, it includes reprints of some of his writings: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burtchaell-141

He took my grandfather to the 50th anniversary of the battle in 1913, I grew up hearing that story from my grandfather many many times. Story goes that the only Yankee my grandfather did not greet warmly at the reunion was General Sickles, he refused his handshake. I think Sickles was the only surviving general officer at that time.
 
Irwin said:
People are showing their biases in this thread without even knowing it because of the way history was written during the Cold War. People equate the economic and political systems of the Soviet Union and China to Marxism and Communism, when what they actually had wasn't at all communism. The Soviet Union had and China has state run capitalism — not communism or Marxism. Marxism/communism means that the workers control the means of production. Countries that we designate as communistic have dictators; the people or workers have no control of anything, so communism in those countries is impossible. A dictator is incompatible with communism.
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What you're missing is that, theoretically, in a communist society, the State IS The People.
So, theoretically, The People/the workers "own" all manufacturing, farms, land, etc. All the people do. Nothing is literally "owned" by one person; you don't own a house or a business or a factory, everything belongs to the State, meaning all the people, and theoretically, all the products and revenue from all enterprises is fairly and equally distributed among all the people.

Under Deng Xiaoping, the party leader who succeeded Mao, China experimented with capitalism. It's what he called Capitalism with Chinese Socialist characteristics. He defined socialist capitalism as "Planning and market forces to control economic activity." Deng insisted that China could pursue socialist modernization by incorporating elements of capitalism. The CCP believed then, as it does now, that "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" is their path to world domination.
 
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Murrmurr said:
What you're missing is that, theoretically, in a communist society, the State IS The People.
So, theoretically, The People/the workers "own" all manufacturing, farms, land, etc. All the people do. Nothing is literally "owned" by one person; you don't own a house or a business or a factory, everything belongs to the State, meaning all the people, and theoretically, all the products and revenue from all enterprises is fairly and equally distributed among all the people.

Under Deng Xiaoping, the party leader who succeeded Mao, China experimented with capitalism. It's what he called Capitalism with Chinese Socialist characteristics. He defined socialist capitalism as "Planning and market forces to control economic activity." Deng insisted that China could pursue socialist modernization by incorporating elements of capitalism. The CCP believed then, as it does now, that "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" is their path to world domination.
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I'm not missing that at all. In a pure democracy, the state is the people. But obviously, if you have a dictatorship, the people have no say in government policy, in which case, the "state" is one person. That is far removed from true communism.
 
Irwin said:
I'm not missing that at all. In a pure democracy, the state is the people. But obviously, if you have a dictatorship, the people have no say in government policy, in which case, the "state" is one person. That is far removed from true communism.
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Also (as you probly know) the CCP calls itself a Republic....with Chinese characteristics, of course. ;)
 
As occasionally happens, I save tabs to comment on specific posts, but later can't find them. Will try again.
However, I want to pose this question to anyone who wants to reply, but mostly @Irwin (his comments on bias) and @Murrmurr (his comments about CCP):

Along with various other "shady" goings-on, a somewhat-popular celebrity "encouraged" Black American men to not become involved in the military, but if either Russia or China were to begin a war with the United States Black American men should side with them (Russia or China) against the United States.

Do you guys or anyone else here think this is o.k.?

(P.S. despite comments on other threads, no I'm not talking about Muhammed Ali!)
 
JaniceM said:
As occasionally happens, I save tabs to comment on specific posts, but later can't find them. Will try again.
However, I want to pose this question to anyone who wants to reply, but mostly @Irwin (his comments on bias) and @Murrmurr (his comments about CCP):

Along with various other "shady" goings-on, a somewhat-popular celebrity "encouraged" Black American men to not become involved in the military, but if either Russia or China were to begin a war with the United States Black American men should side with them (Russia or China) against the United States.

Do you guys or anyone else here think this is o.k.?

(P.S. despite comments on other threads, no I'm not talking about Muhammed Ali!)
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Sure. I think it was Malcolm X who encouraged Black men to refuse to serve in the US military back in the late 60s. To avoid the draft, he said all Black men should register for colleges and universities, and suggested they major in law, social studies, and/or humanities, and become lawyers, policemen and politicians. Today we see Black men (and women) in law enforcement, Black attorneys and judges, Black mayors, senators, and governors, and we've had a Black president. So that worked out.

Neither Russia nor China have a shortage of military personnel, and both have very strict immigration laws. China especially. In fact it's impossible to become a Chinese citizen unless you're Chinese, and there's no dual citizenship there, plus they are generally very prejudiced against Blacks. So it would be interesting to see how that goes. In any case, that celebrity obviously doesn't have even half the intelligence Malcolm X had.
 
Murrmurr said:
Sure. I think it was Malcolm X who encouraged Black men to refuse to serve in the US military back in the late 60s. To avoid the draft, he said all Black men should register for colleges and universities, and suggested they major in law, social studies, and/or humanities, and become lawyers, policemen and politicians. Today we see Black men (and women) in law enforcement, Black attorneys and judges, Black mayors, senators, and governors, and we've had a Black president. So that worked out.

Neither Russia nor China have a shortage of military personnel, and both have very strict immigration laws. China especially. In fact it's impossible to become a Chinese citizen unless you're Chinese, and there's no dual citizenship there, plus they are generally very prejudiced against Blacks. So it would be interesting to see how that goes. In any case, that celebrity obviously doesn't have even half the intelligence Malcolm X had.
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I don't see what your second paragraph has to do with anything, nor was I referring to Malcolm X and didn't know what he said on the topic, but don't agree that progress had anything to do with him.

Did you miss the part about encouraging the young to side with those countries against the U.S. when it appeared there was a very real threat of war with them?
 
In a war between the U.S. and Russia, I think a lot of Americans would side with Russia, including a former president and many other politicians who favor authoritarianism. To say any more would be delving into politics, so I'll leave it at that.
 
JaniceM said:
I don't see what your second paragraph has to do with anything, nor was I referring to Malcolm X and didn't know what he said on the topic, but don't agree that progress had anything to do with him.

Did you miss the part about encouraging the young to side with those countries against the U.S. when it appeared there was a very real threat of war with them?
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No, I didn't miss that part. That's what the second paragraph was about.

I know you didn't refer to Malcolm X...I did because, in my opinion, it's pertinent. My point was that the things Malcolm X said scared people, but it did effect change, and it was progressive. They were changes for the better, and that's not what most people expected.
 
I have decided to step away from this conversation because it has gotten somewhat away from the original topic and more on the United States and the differences in other governments, but one thing is the United States stands for is the Freedom of Speech and the people should be able to peacefully express those thoughts whether it be on a forum such as this or in a demonstration or march.
 
Signe The Survivor said:
I have decided to step away from this conversation because it has gotten somewhat away from the original topic and more on the United States and the differences in other governments, but one thing is the United States stands for is the Freedom of Speech and the people should be able to peacefully express those thoughts whether it be on a forum such as this or in a demonstration or march.
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I apologize to you specifically if my posts awhile back seemed like I was talking in circles or vague, but I was trying to get your input on something specific without "naming names."
 
Chapter 1
The Making of a New Nation

The beginning of the United States
Today the United States is one of the strongest nations in the world. It is also one of the youngest. Until 1776 there was no United States. There were just thirteen colonies that belonged to Great Britain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So begins my sixth grade history book Our New Nation. 1952 edition. The year I read it was about 10 years or so later. This is where I learned much about American history, the other being Walt Disney and my parents and grandparents & older sister.
 
JaniceM said:
As occasionally happens, I save tabs to comment on specific posts, but later can't find them. Will try again.
However, I want to pose this question to anyone who wants to reply, but mostly @Irwin (his comments on bias) and @Murrmurr (his comments about CCP):

Along with various other "shady" goings-on, a somewhat-popular celebrity "encouraged" Black American men to not become involved in the military, but if either Russia or China were to begin a war with the United States Black American men should side with them (Russia or China) against the United States.

Do you guys or anyone else here think this is o.k.?

(P.S. despite comments on other threads, no I'm not talking about Muhammed Ali!)
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Why didn't you cite the Black celebrity's name? Could it be... Dick Gregory?

I'm guessing the event you described occurred during the '60s or '70s when there was a lot of civil unrest and racial strife. Well, maybe not, since you used Russia instead of the Soviet Union, although the two have been used interchangeably by some during the Cold War with Russia being the metaphorical center of the Soviet Union.

I guess if conditions became so horrendous and suffering was pervasive and entrenched in society because of our leaders' policies, there might be some legitimate rationale for supporting the invasion and takeover of the United States by another country. It would be like people in Germany during the rise of the Nazis supporting a foreign power, which no doubt was the case since lot of Germans fought as partisans against Nazi Germany.

It could be that Black leaders at various times in history believed that they'd be better off if the Soviet Union or China invaded our country. That could be what the celebrity you cited believed and was telling other Blacks to do, and what was their perspective on American history, which is the topic of this thread. A lot of Black slaved before emancipation undoubtedly and understandably would have supported the overthrow of our government by a foreign power if that would have resulted in their freedom.
 
Irwin said:
In a war between the U.S. and Russia, I think a lot of Americans would side with Russia, including a former president and many other politicians who favor authoritarianism. To say any more would be delving into politics, so I'll leave it at that.
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I completely (and respectfully) disagree. I can't imagine an American civil servant who favors authoritarian leadership would allow a foreign power take it. Also, the average Russian doesn't hate America and neither does their president. It's obvious he thinks our leaders are stupid a lot of the time, but I honestly don't believe he has any interest in overthrowing our gov't or going to war against us. (Not saying that couldn't change, tho)
 

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