Why do we believe in God

[Jambo]

Stuart Chase: “For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” If this is the case why do we try?
Stuart Chase was an American economist, social theorist, and writer. His writings covered topics as diverse as general semantics and physical economy.

There's a couple of questions that puzzle me. When I ask how did the universe start I usually get the big bang answer. When I ask how did the big bang happen, I get told gasses. When I ask how did the gasses come about I usually get an annoyed stare. Nobody has ever explained to me how something like gasses or whatever, existed.

The other question is infinity. The universe must be infinite, meaning no end, because if it's finite what's at the end of it? So if infinity in space exists, does it exist in time, too?

Are you familiar with the theory that the universe has always been there...never actually started and will never end? I think the idea is that it sort of pulses (like a heart?) expansion, contraction - big bang...start all over again. Ergo - nobody made it. Since we have absolutely no way of knowing for sure I'm staying stuck here on the fence.

 

[bobcat]

Are you familiar with the theory that the universe has always been there...never actually started and will never end? I think the idea is that it sort of pulses (like a heart?) expansion, contraction - big bang...start all over again. Ergo - nobody made it. Since we have absolutely no way of knowing for sure I'm staying stuck here on the fence.

It's an intriguing possibility. If one could believe in an eternal being, then why not eternal particles, or eternal energy that can become mass (particles). The first law of Thermodynamics (The Conservation of Energy) postulates that energy can't be increased or decreased in a closed system.

I guess we just don't know if the universe is a closed system. There is so much we don't know, and may never know.

 

[papa tiger]

I met a young woman at a Cash Register today that said she would never beget a Child.

She wants to "spend her life until likely into her 80's just growing up," .. "it is so much fun."

I thought most would agree that after the 60's the 70's - 80's mostly sucked! ... twit ...
_______________________
Of course I didn't take her seriously. She just needs the right I am a Man Guy with a good future.

 

[MarkD]

Another one of these mr ed god threads that members hijacked into other topics without (IMO) actually answering the OP's topic.

OP>>>"Why do we believe in God"

So which question are members addressing?

• Why do humans adults generally believe in God?
• Why do children believe in God?
• Why do some scientists believe in God?
• Why do some scientists not believe in God?
• Why does the OP believe in God?
• Why does [insert member name] believe in God?
• Why does [insert member name] not believe in God?

And which "God" are we talking about?

• The Gods Mesopotamian primitives in earliest civilizations conjured up 5000 years ago?
• Osiris of ancient Egypt?
• Aztec polytheistic Gods?
• Greek and Roman theology Gods? Zeus of course!
• Brahma?
• The ancient Chinese supreme deity, Shangdi?
• The Israelite Christian God?
• Allah the god of Islam?
• Casper, the Friendly Ghost?

Since this is a talking horse thread, we know where his past lies, thus which one.

Most Christian children believe whatever because they are taught so while being brought up within religious families and communities following specific denominations. So that for the largest numbers of people, answers the OP's question. This is the same reason people believed thousands of years ago. But doesn't address why the parent adults may still believe. Nor does it answer why people increasingly doubt whatever beliefs or stop believing. In ancient days, adults continued to officially believe lest they end up skewered up on long sharp poles outlet orifice to inlet orifice or working in their overlord's copper mines.

As I sometimes relate as a metaphor, "In this worldly existence, I'm like a tiny wooden twig floating along bobbing up and down, in and out, of the muddy surface in the vast Mississippi River during spring flood."

And in like manner a child is raised as a believer until they reach an age where behaviors they desire may grate against acceptable cultural and religious behaviors.

• So Billy now wants to have relations with most of the females in his high school classes while Mommy says he will be allowed just one wife.
• Damon wants to daily fantasize relations with and self pleasure himself over myriad porn females.
• Mason the capitalist, wants to go to [insert name of socialist country] and bomb them.

As for some of the above questions, this person will avoid stepping into the pig sty but may engage others in future threads on more focused posed related questions. Like why ancient intelligent entities likely inhabit the universe, may have visited, are possibly addressed in the Bible, and why they avoid interacting with we modern technology era Earth monkeys.

I tend to see a conversation as an open and evolving enterprise. I haven't seen hide nor hair of Mr Ed here for some time. But I've enjoyed talking to some on common aspects of interest. I take it that doesn't include you.

 

[bobcat]

DNA is a "code" in terms of a descriptive sense, but some could argue against it in reality.

But how does it point to a "planning mind at work"? It's purely chemical.

You may very well be right. Here's a short, but interesting article with a bold claim.
Perhaps it could be a missing piece of the puzzle. Best to keep an open mind.

Scientists Solved the Nagging Mystery of How Genes Emerge From Nothing​

MSN

 

[papa tiger]

Are you familiar with the theory that the universe has always been there...never actually started and will never end? I think the idea is that it sort of pulses (like a heart?) expansion, contraction - big bang...start all over again. Ergo - nobody made it. Since we have absolutely no way of knowing for sure I'm staying stuck here on the fence.

I can go with you some there on a fence! ..... ..... But what if there are Trillions or more than many universes of unexplained or even able to imagine the size of. Thas most likely a fact! Sure their light will never reach ours. So vast, unimaginable the Trillions of Trillions of Trillions of lights size of vastness. There are most likely no bounds to area, just the fact that the big bangs only last for so long and then fade to vastness of another area screwed up place where energy has changed, maybe dark or a big bang has the crazy space to happen into again some vast spance of time later?

Maybe all of the universe's of stuff arrive at the same place at the same time and go boom. Maybe there is a Quantum Coagulation of stuff smacking the same tiny spot? Occurs in Empty of Physical stuff, all of it in Sub atomic state? ... ...

It's easy to get an immortality of Energy if it happens that a way. Energy just constantly changing, never destroyed.

So again, its just stuff constantly evolving.

 

[Judycat]

Why do we think flowers are pretty?

 

[papa tiger]

Why do we think flowers are pretty?

They are wonderful, beauty undefinable and fleeting in time passing measurements.

 

[rbtvgo]

There is no human explanation. We simply do not have the facts. The fact that so many try to understand is testament to the need to understand. The teacher, GOD, imparts on his creation, YOU AND ME, the knowledge that he wants us to have. Nothing more. Not all, just what he wants to give each one of us.

Maybe the issue is the concept of "A" God. In the Bible God says "I AM" period! What does that mean? Think about it.

We are all masters of our own universes...........until we are not. We understand how the world works until we do not...............
We follow the rules, obey the laws and we still end up trying to understand why things didn't go are way. Babies die, our love ones pass. Where is the justice? Where is God?

There is much in just simply asking him and then being silent and listening.

Ask anything of the Lord and then just be quiet........and Listen.

 

[rbtvgo]

A very tricky topic to discuss. Thanks everyone for the very civil discourse.

hope all is well.
bob

 

[Radrook]

Never been observed? Well here is one that I inherited from my father. I can wiggle my right ear, and so could he. A valuable trait instilled by some unknown universal intellect? Neither valuable, or in my unalterable opinion, not the product of some DNA “coder” lurking in the depths of the Universe. Another example of a far more useful inherited evolutionary trait is the remarkable intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews, which can be explained without reference to some mysterious coder.

Mysterious coder? Well, the nature of the coder is totally irrelevant to the fact that a coder is needed. Seems as if you are more focused on who the coder might chance to be than on the proven fact that codes don't code themselves. That is and has been and will always be the relevant issue at hand and which you continue to conveniently ignore by deviating the issue to who the coder might be.

Explained you say?

Well, that isn't anything unusual. You see, the ability to explain away what is obviously true means absolutely nothing. Why? Simple! Because humans have the ability to offer ridiculously illogical and convoluted explanations to explain away anything or everything that they are averse to admitting. In fact, they will silently spend weeks coming up with some excuse and making it seem like a logical reason to reject anything that they wish to reject. Now, whether these explanations actually make any sort of sense is an entirely different matter. In the case of DNA, they don't because they ignore what information science has already established, that coded information is always traceable to a mind. That you choose to ignore this established fact does not refute its validity.

 

[papa tiger]

There is no human explanation. We simply do not have the facts. The fact that so many try to understand is testament to the need to understand. The teacher, GOD, imparts on his creation, YOU AND ME, the knowledge that he wants us to have. Nothing more. Not all, just what he wants to give each one of us.

Maybe the issue is the concept of "A" God. In the Bible God says "I AM" period! What does that mean? Think about it.

We are all masters of our own universes...........until we are not. We understand how the world works until we do not...............
We follow the rules, obey the laws and we still end up trying to understand why things didn't go are way. Babies die, our love ones pass. Where is the justice? Where is God?

There is much in just simply asking him and then being silent and listening.

Ask anything of the Lord and then just be quiet........and Listen.

Most do not believe what you just said. Maybe they know the 'god of their belief is a benevolent, forgiving god, merciful. I don't know.

 

[Radrook]

You may very well be right. Here's a short, but interesting article with a bold claim.
Perhaps it could be a missing piece of the puzzle. Best to keep an open mind.

Scientists Solved the Nagging Mystery of How Genes Emerge From Nothing​

MSN

Really?

 

[ElCastor]

Mysterious coder? Well, the nature of the coder is totally irrelevant to the fact that a coder is needed. Seems as if you are more focused on who the coder might chance to be than on the proven fact that codes don't code themselves. That is and has been and will always be the relevant issue at hand and which you continue to conveniently ignore by deviating the issue to who the coder might be.

No interest on my part as to the identity of the coder. I don’t believe for a moment that there is, or ever was, a coder. But if Abiogenesis lights your fire here is something you might find interesting:
Abiogenesis - Wikipedia

 

[Jambo]

I can go with you some there on a fence! ..... ..... But what if there are Trillions or more than many universes of unexplained or even able to imagine the size of. Thas most likely a fact! Sure their light will never reach ours. So vast, unimaginable the Trillions of Trillions of Trillions of lights size of vastness. There are most likely no bounds to area, just the fact that the big bangs only last for so long and then fade to vastness of another area screwed up place where energy has changed, maybe dark or a big bang has the crazy space to happen into again some vast spance of time later?

Maybe all of the universe's of stuff arrive at the same place at the same time and go boom. Maybe there is a Quantum Coagulation of stuff smacking the same tiny spot? Occurs in Empty of Physical stuff, all of it in Sub atomic state? ... ...

It's easy to get an immortality of Energy if it happens that a way. Energy just constantly changing, never destroyed.

So again, its just stuff constantly evolving.

Say again?

 

[Radrook]

No interest on my part as to the identity of the coder. I don’t believe for a moment that there is, or ever was, a coder. But if Abiogenesis lights your fire here is something you might find interesting:
Abiogenesis - Wikipedia

My response to your abiogenesis idea is this:

 

[JustDave]

I can go with you some there on a fence! ..... ..... But what if there are Trillions or more than many universes of unexplained or even able to imagine the size of. Thas most likely a fact! Sure their light will never reach ours. So vast, unimaginable the Trillions of Trillions of Trillions of lights size of vastness. There are most likely no bounds to area, just the fact that the big bangs only last for so long and then fade to vastness of another area screwed up place where energy has changed, maybe dark or a big bang has the crazy space to happen into again some vast spance of time later?

Maybe all of the universe's of stuff arrive at the same place at the same time and go boom. Maybe there is a Quantum Coagulation of stuff smacking the same tiny spot? Occurs in Empty of Physical stuff, all of it in Sub atomic state? ... ...

It's easy to get an immortality of Energy if it happens that a way. Energy just constantly changing, never destroyed.

So again, its just stuff constantly evolving.

I actually understand this. I've had the same thought myself.

But what happens when we encounter questions that are not resolved? Well, we come up with ideas, each of us with different ideas. Then someone else says, "No that's not right. It has to be this way, or it can't be that way." That's what happens when we deal with the unknown. No one really knows the answer.

I remember reading a book by Stephan Hawking, where he was talking about sorting through his own ideas. I can't remember the specifics, but he was talking about thinking the Universe was a certain way, and then realized that it couldn't be that way. Now he had my attention. Why couldn't it be that way?

But he never said why, which seemed like the most important part of falsifying an idea. Boy was that disappointing. And I wasn't even invested in the idea he rejected. I just wanted to know WHY! Humans are just not very good at handling unknowns.

 

[Topoff]

Personally, I think there has to be some sort of intelligence behind what we see before our eyes. Apparently, everyone throughout history felt the same way. I suppose the most popular notion, since our beginning, was to attribute this apparent intelligence, or things that just couldn't be explained, to some higher being, or even object for that matter, calling them/it god. I mean, who else was standing around to take credit for everything?--besides those who sometimes did underhandedly try to take credit, that is. Bottom line, we only know what we've been told.

Seems things haven't changed much either. To this day we still (as a whole) literally deify others, e.g., actors, athletes, presidents, preachers, kings, etc., etc. Go figure! Maybe a stage in our evolution?

For my view, I know there is an intelligent cause, and I know we are its effect, if thru no other means than intuition. I just call whatever it is The Great Spirit, for lack of anything better.

 

[Pepper]

How do you explain the balance of nature? How do you explain our very existence and we can find no one else. How do you justify all that is passed in your life and you are still alive?

Whatever it is, it's not god. There is no god. Discussions like this are merely college bull sessions without alcohol or drugs. It is curiosity entertaining itself. Round & round & round we go discussing nothing.

 

[Mr. Ed]

I spent quite a bit of time on the thread you started on that site. It's interesting that there are enough people there to create a website that holds to what is traditionally a fundamentalist concept, but still make allowances for science in Christianity. I can actually relate to this, while disagreeing with them at the same time.

I came from a fundamentalist (Baptist) extended family that shared a house with two separate flats. Grandparents upstairs, and my immediate family downstairs. My grandmother first laid out her religious truths when I was in the youngest of my formative years. And she didn't wait for me to learn how to think. I don't know how old I was, but I only have a few memories that are old enough for me not to have yet developed a sense of time and my place in it. I remember her telling me about the most important thing in life, and I remember it vividly because it was an absolute horror story, and the first time I ever heard about God and his grand plans.

My father and uncle had been indoctrinated years earlier and I attribute much of my father's misery and depression to her teachings, although much of his problems may have been due to chemical imbalance, so I'll just say Grandmother didn't help. My mother was not a fundamentalist, and must have put her foot down and told my father that her children were not going to be raised that way, so in the downstairs flat we settled on the less horrifying Lutheran Church. But Grandmother's first introduction to the "true" god was now well ingrained deep in my psyche. My mother must have had words with my grandmother about taking responsibility for my religious upbringing, but all I really know is there was some bad blood between them, which was never discussed in detail.

So around the age of 5, I started to question religion. Some of it made no sense, and the situation was not helped by absurd Bible stories, but I managed to hang on to a faith over the years by making up a new Christianity and continually modifying it, much like the YEC people in your forum do. I considered myself a Christian, but not a Lutheran, Baptist, or even Bible Christian. I was never able to reconcile Bible Christianity with the reality around me. In my early 50s, I had a dramatic insight. I was an atheist, and probably had been for years, while trying to pass as a believer, because atheist is an ugly sounding description to me.

It's not that Bible Christianity, Christianity, Mormon, my modified versions, or Buddhist religions were absolutely wrong. It was just that I could find no compelling evidence to believe in any of them.

Your guys don't seem too bad, actually. And for what it's worth, my two closest friends where I have settled in the last 15 years are a married fundamentalist couple.

I like your thinking, I was compelled my parents to believe the Southern Baptist way as my father was the preacher who spread his nonsensical beliefs throughout the communities we lived in. He was very popular as far as the SBC goes. My mother believed could be made by going to church, my dad’s church.
my world view at the time was narrowly confined to the southern Baptist tradition, that was I knew which was injustice to me due the lasting effects of always being a lowly sinner, nothing more.
although I tried I could never become as most Christians describe as saved by Jesus, so recently I cut out the middle man and focused my faith in god, but not the god as christian and the Bible describe.
my rendition of god is simply that of a managing force that is in everyone who choose to believe that way, who keeps life, world and universe balanced and in order. i believe something keeps check of everything by the rules of survival of the fittest. The old and weak die away for new life in perpetual evolution.
I have doubts that sin and salvation truly exists, as not something ingrained from childhood and logic. Christian claim truth in the Bible by faith, but not logic. Faith is the belief in anything once you are convinced it is true by acceptance. This is beyond logic but many believe without question for fear of retribution, and that is sad.

 

[Radrook]

I actually understand this. I've had the same thought myself.

But what happens when we encounter questions that are not resolved? Well, we come up with ideas, each of us with different ideas. Then someone else says, "No that's not right. It has to be this way, or it can't be that way." That's what happens when we deal with the unknown. No one really knows the answer.

I remember reading a book by Stephan Hawking, where he was talking about sorting through his own ideas. I can't remember the specifics, but he was talking about thinking the Universe was a certain way, and then realized that it couldn't be that way. Now he had my attention. Why couldn't it be that way?

But he never said why, which seemed like the most important part of falsifying an idea. Boy was that disappointing. And I wasn't even invested in the idea he rejected. I just wanted to know WHY! Humans are just not very good at handling unknowns.

Well, humans are very good at tagging the known as being unknown, or else as being totally unknowable, whenever the known makes humans feel extremely uncomfortable. For example, it is an established fact that coded information, which requires meticulous planning for a communication purposes, is always dependent on the activity of a mind.

Yet, contrary to this evidence, we still have people claiming that this is totally unknowable despite the indisputable expert evidence presented. It seems similar to a mantra that is constantly being chanted in the hope that the disagreeable fact will somehow be forced to go away.

​

 

[MarkD]

Personally, I think there has to be some sort of intelligence behind what we see before our eyes. Apparently, everyone throughout history felt the same way. I suppose the most popular notion, since our beginning, was to attribute this apparent intelligence, or things that just couldn't be explained, to some higher being, or even object for that matter, calling them/it god. I mean, who else was standing around to take credit for everything?--besides those who sometimes did underhandedly try to take credit, that is. Bottom line, we only know what we've been told.

I was with you until the last line which I've bolded. I'd say we only know what we experience and especially while we are experiencing it. I think words alone are thin residue of experience and never can convey it all.

For my view, I know there is an intelligent cause, and I know we are its effect, if thru no other means than intuition.

Nothing wrong with intuition for those who can still access it. I think we are an effect of something greater too.

I just call whatever it is The Great Spirit, for lack of anything better.

I'm fine with that terminology or God

I spent quite a bit of time on the thread you started on that site. It's interesting that there are enough people there to create a website that holds to what is traditionally a fundamentalist concept, but still make allowances for science in Christianity. I can actually relate to this, while disagreeing with them at the same time.

I came from a fundamentalist (Baptist) extended family that shared a house with two separate flats. Grandparents upstairs, and my immediate family downstairs. My grandmother first laid out her religious truths when I was in the youngest of my formative years. And she didn't wait for me to learn how to think. I don't know how old I was, but I only have a few memories that are old enough for me not to have yet developed a sense of time and my place in it. I remember her telling me about the most important thing in life, and I remember it vividly because it was an absolute horror story, and the first time I ever heard about God and his grand plans.

My father and uncle had been indoctrinated years earlier and I attribute much of my father's misery and depression to her teachings, although much of his problems may have been due to chemical imbalance, so I'll just say Grandmother didn't help. My mother was not a fundamentalist, and must have put her foot down and told my father that her children were not going to be raised that way, so in the downstairs flat we settled on the less horrifying Lutheran Church. But Grandmother's first introduction to the "true" god was now well ingrained deep in my psyche. My mother must have had words with my grandmother about taking responsibility for my religious upbringing, but all I really know is there was some bad blood between them, which was never discussed in detail.

So around the age of 5, I started to question religion. Some of it made no sense, and the situation was not helped by absurd Bible stories, but I managed to hang on to a faith over the years by making up a new Christianity and continually modifying it, much like the YEC people in your forum do. I considered myself a Christian, but not a Lutheran, Baptist, or even Bible Christian. I was never able to reconcile Bible Christianity with the reality around me. In my early 50s, I had a dramatic insight. I was an atheist, and probably had been for years, while trying to pass as a believer, because atheist is an ugly sounding description to me.

It's not that Bible Christianity, Christianity, Mormon, my modified versions, or Buddhist religions were absolutely wrong. It was just that I could find no compelling evidence to believe in any of them.

Your guys don't seem too bad, actually. And for what it's worth, my two closest friends where I have settled in the last 15 years are a married fundamentalist couple.

Sorry I missed your reply yesterday and thanks for sharing your experience. Your grandmother sounds like a regular horror. I hope that is an unusual initiation. More to say but I’m just about to drive my wife home from our morning walk. Then I’d like to say more.

 

[JustDave]

I was with you until the last line which I've bolded. I'd say we only know what we experience and especially while we are experiencing it. I think words alone are thin residue of experience and never can convey it all.



Nothing wrong with intuition for those who can still access it. I think we are an effect of something greater too.



I'm fine with that terminology or God


Sorry I missed your reply yesterday and thanks for sharing your experience. Your grandmother sounds like a regular horror. I hope that is an unusual initiation. More to say but I’m just about to drive my wife home from our morning walk. Then I’d like to say more.

 

[JustDave]

Sorry I missed your reply yesterday and thanks for sharing your experience. Your grandmother sounds like a regular horror. I hope that is an unusual initiation.

An added reason why her words impacted half my life so negatively, was because in every other way, I loved her, even until she died when I was senior in high school. By then, I was taking her introduction to faith with a huge grain of salt. But being deeply ingrained in my subconscious at such an early age, I dealt with the world with a great deal of fear for many years, although at the time, I thought that's just the way life is for everyone. I did finally clean enough of the religious doctrine out of my life to feel confident and comfortable. I believe it's all gone now, but who knows?

 

[Topoff]

I was with you until the last line which I've bolded. I'd say we only know what we experience and especially while we are experiencing it. I think words alone are thin residue of experience and never can convey it all.



Nothing wrong with intuition for those who can still access it. I think we are an effect of something greater too.



I'm fine with that terminology or God


Sorry I missed your reply yesterday and thanks for sharing your experience. Your grandmother sounds like a regular horror. I hope that is an unusual initiation. More to say but I’m just about to drive my wife home from our morning walk. Then I’d like to say more.

Exactly my point sir. Until we actually experience something, "...we only know what we've been told."