Why do we believe in God

[MarkD]

I spent quite a bit of time on the thread you started on that site. It's interesting that there are enough people there to create a website that holds to what is traditionally a fundamentalist concept, but still make allowances for science in Christianity. I can actually relate to this, while disagreeing with them at the same time.

I came from a fundamentalist (Baptist) extended family that shared a house with two separate flats. Grandparents upstairs, and my immediate family downstairs. My grandmother first laid out her religious truths when I was in the youngest of my formative years. And she didn't wait for me to learn how to think. I don't know how old I was, but I only have a few memories that are old enough for me not to have yet developed a sense of time and my place in it. I remember her telling me about the most important thing in life, and I remember it vividly because it was an absolute horror story, and the first time I ever heard about God and his grand plans.

My father and uncle had been indoctrinated years earlier and I attribute much of my father's misery and depression to her teachings, although much of his problems may have been due to chemical imbalance, so I'll just say Grandmother didn't help. My mother was not a fundamentalist, and must have put her foot down and told my father that her children were not going to be raised that way, so in the downstairs flat we settled on the less horrifying Lutheran Church. But Grandmother's first introduction to the "true" god was now well ingrained deep in my psyche. My mother must have had words with my grandmother about taking responsibility for my religious upbringing, but all I really know is there was some bad blood between them, which was never discussed in detail.

So around the age of 5, I started to question religion. Some of it made no sense, and the situation was not helped by absurd Bible stories, but I managed to hang on to a faith over the years by making up a new Christianity and continually modifying it, much like the YEC people in your forum do. I considered myself a Christian, but not a Lutheran, Baptist, or even Bible Christian. I was never able to reconcile Bible Christianity with the reality around me. In my early 50s, I had a dramatic insight. I was an atheist, and probably had been for years, while trying to pass as a believer, because atheist is an ugly sounding description to me.

It's not that Bible Christianity, Christianity, Mormon, my modified versions, or Buddhist religions were absolutely wrong. It was just that I could find no compelling evidence to believe in any of them.

Your guys don't seem too bad, actually. And for what it's worth, my two closest friends where I have settled in the last 15 years are a married fundamentalist couple.

I thank you for checking it out. I understand your feelings in this. While I have found the crew there overall welcoming there have been some who had a very strong reaction against me. Disagreement is taken as an insult to their deity by some Christians even if it is their feelings that fuel their response.

I have a friend in Germany who has posted at both Biologos and here who has a similar religious orientation to me who was treated pretty roughly. I'd say we are both examples of people who come to religions as the perennial philosophy of which Aldous Huxley wrote, something that recurs outside of tradition. In some ways, never having been a practicing Christian as an adult as in my case was less of an affront that someone they saw as apostate. Most of the moderators are outstanding and I consider them friends.

The way I see it, traditional religion serves us all by way of keeping alive the idea that there is a hidden dimension to life imbedded in what is seen. Though I never read the Bible or attended a church past early elementary school my imagination was still fed some potent archetypes which strongly shaped who I've become. One reason I can coexist well with Christians is I recognize the gift I was given and the other came from reading the American Jungian psychologist, James Hillman who wrote a lot about the soul in a psychological sense.

Hillman advocated embracing belief if you had it and not letting a modernistic mindset stop you if you didn't. After all when it comes to dreams, pathologies, or other products of the psyche, everything we experience has an as-if quality. Dreams have no empirical implications and neither must the archetypes and deities one may experience. Those who have a good relationship to the deeper, productive levels of their psyches are better off in terms of fulfilling their humanity and finding meaning and fulfillment - those not being arbitrary things we just make up. They're their and we just have to be on good enough terms with our deeper self to reap the rewards.

I've never felt the need to tell anyone their belief is wrong and I don't think it is -quite the contrary as Hillman suggests. I learned to speak of sacred things in a way not offensive to Christians. Not so much to ask, only the thin skinned and more literally minded objected that I just wasn't one of them. In the beginning instead of saying God I would refer to the something greater I always intuited was there inside us as 'that which gives rise to and still supports God belief'. I could truthfully say of that that I thought it was real, dynamic and important.

Another thread I started there which has been the source of many good books for me I called "Pithy quotes which give us pause to reflect" which is the 197th post in the thread. Here Merv who is a mod and a very fair minded and intelligent thinker shares a book called Holy Envy by Barbara Brown Taylor which I enjoyed tremendously and later shared other quotes from too.

In the 432nd post in the same thread I shared a quote from Wendell Berry's novel Jayber Crow in which he describes a human soul more beautifully than anything else I've read. This recommendation came to me in a list of 20 most recommended books shared by another moderator Phil who is older like me, probably less adventurous in his reading habits but just as fair minded. There are many others in there too but it is a huge thread.

If you decide to give it a try I hope you get a better reception than my friend Rob did. I've taken a couple breaks from it because sometimes a young gun apologist comes along that just wants to bag me so bad that it becomes unbearable. I think Christianity may be the only religion that is hell ben on converting everyone or maybe Islam is another.

 

[JustDave]

If you decide to give it a try I hope you get a better reception than my friend Rob did. I've taken a couple breaks from it because sometimes a young gun apologist comes along that just wants to bag me so bad that it becomes unbearable. I think Christianity may be the only religion that is hell ben on converting everyone or maybe Islam is another.

It's interesting to know groups like that exist, and of course, it's inevitable that there will be those ready to reject you harshly if you are not an "inner member" or not accepting the right philosophy in the "correct" manner. Your personal attitude is also quite unique, and I've noticed that you will engage people graciously in this forum that I would ignore. But then you have at least tangential spiritual values. I have none.

I understand that most people need to be spiritual, or are taught they need to be, as I was, but my best honest self appraisal is that I gain nothing from spirituality. I'm a much smaller subset of society, but one that is growing. I'll never make it to that majority, but I'm never alone either.

 

[DaveA]

I'm not sure that I believe in Poughkeepsie, NY ? I don't know anyone, personally, that's happened to go there. Like the Bible, there's maps and books that describe it, but do I KNOW if it's a real place?

I don't KNOW- - - -I only assume it is until someone can give me concrete evidence that it's not there. I guess I'll just plan to end my days there and in the meantime, until someone convinces me otherwise, I'll plan on settling in.

 

[Knight]

Ask anything of the Lord and then just be quiet........and Listen.

Tried that with the power ball, didn't win. I'll try again.

 

[rbtvgo]

Most do not believe what you just said. Maybe they know the 'god of their belief is a benevolent, forgiving god, merciful. I don't know.

Why does he need to be benevolent or merciful ? He can be and often is, but he is still GOD. His son got hammered to a cross and bled. Why did God sacrifice his son ? For what?
To pay the price of our sins.
God will not be mocked. God will not discuss with his creation why he does what he does. He simply wants us to believe in him, trust in him and acknowledge are need for him. Fight with him, ignore him, thumb your nose at him and sooner or later you will be calling out to him.

Why bother calling out to a God that you do not believe exist. Call out to your mother, or father, or your best friend when your facing the end. They can help you?

No offense to anyone but doesn't it make you wonder why?

 

[rbtvgo]

I thank you for checking it out. I understand your feelings in this. While I have found the crew there overall welcoming there have been some who had a very strong reaction against me. Disagreement is taken as an insult to their deity by some Christians even if it is their feelings that fuel their response.

I have a friend in Germany who has posted at both Biologos and here who has a similar religious orientation to me who was treated pretty roughly. I'd say we are both examples of people who come to religions as the perennial philosophy of which Aldous Huxley wrote, something that recurs outside of tradition. In some ways, never having been a practicing Christian as an adult as in my case was less of an affront that someone they saw as apostate. Most of the moderators are outstanding and I consider them friends.

The way I see it, traditional religion serves us all by way of keeping alive the idea that there is a hidden dimension to life imbedded in what is seen. Though I never read the Bible or attended a church past early elementary school my imagination was still fed some potent archetypes which strongly shaped who I've become. One reason I can coexist well with Christians is I recognize the gift I was given and the other came from reading the American Jungian psychologist, James Hillman who wrote a lot about the soul in a psychological sense.

Hillman advocated embracing belief if you had it and not letting a modernistic mindset stop you if you didn't. After all when it comes to dreams, pathologies, or other products of the psyche, everything we experience has an as-if quality. Dreams have no empirical implications and neither must the archetypes and deities one may experience. Those who have a good relationship to the deeper, productive levels of their psyches are better off in terms of fulfilling their humanity and finding meaning and fulfillment - those not being arbitrary things we just make up. They're their and we just have to be on good enough terms with our deeper self to reap the rewards.

I've never felt the need to tell anyone their belief is wrong and I don't think it is -quite the contrary as Hillman suggests. I learned to speak of sacred things in a way not offensive to Christians. Not so much to ask, only the thin skinned and more literally minded objected that I just wasn't one of them. In the beginning instead of saying God I would refer to the something greater I always intuited was there inside us as 'that which gives rise to and still supports God belief'. I could truthfully say of that that I thought it was real, dynamic and important.

Another thread I started there which has been the source of many good books for me I called "Pithy quotes which give us pause to reflect" which is the 197th post in the thread. Here Merv who is a mod and a very fair minded and intelligent thinker shares a book called Holy Envy by Barbara Brown Taylor which I enjoyed tremendously and later shared other quotes from too.

In the 432nd post in the same thread I shared a quote from Wendell Berry's novel Jayber Crow in which he describes a human soul more beautifully than anything else I've read. This recommendation came to me in a list of 20 most recommended books shared by another moderator Phil who is older like me, probably less adventurous in his reading habits but just as fair minded. There are many others in there too but it is a huge thread.

If you decide to give it a try I hope you get a better reception than my friend Rob did. I've taken a couple breaks from it because sometimes a young gun apologist comes along that just wants to bag me so bad that it becomes unbearable. I think Christianity may be the only religion that is hell ben on converting everyone or maybe Islam is another.

Faith in your creator includes realizing that the information he gives you is all he wants to give you. You go from that point. So your conclusions are devoid of the information you were not given. You don't know God, you haven't taken the time. You know...........and you pass it on.

Know what! read the Bible, ask God for understanding and then poniificate. READ THE BIBLE FROM BEGINNING TO END, then give us your views. The wisdom of the wise ( 1 Corinthiansm 1:19).

 

[MarkD]

Whatever it is, it's not god.

I would always have said the same but for very subtle but to me undeniable reasons, I no longer feel that way now. I'd say it just depends on what you think God refers to, if it is a cosmic size, human like master then no, I don't think so either.

 

[Jambo]

Ditto.

I absolutely, emphatically do NOT believe in God...but I go to church every Sunday (just in case)
Let's face it, we don't know. There is no hard evidence (that we can comprehend) either way. So believe what you feel most comfortable with, as long as you don't try to force your beliefs on others. Dogmatism is not a pretty thing.

 

[MarkD]

Whoever created this universe made us believe in the creator.

I sort of agree except I don’t think there is any separation between the created and the creator and I don’t think we are forced to do anything, most especially not forced to believe in God. Entirely optional as we can see by the variety of what people believe in.

 

[MarkD]

But then you have at least tangential spiritual values. I have none.

Funny but I don’t think I am the least bit spiritual. Of course I have values as we all do but like “God” I only recognize what “spiritual” is by seeing how the way others use the word maps on to my experience.

My favorite psychologist, the late James Hillman, distinguishes between “spirit” and “soul”. Like him, I am a soul man and regard much spirituality as largely escapist.

 

[bobcat]

There is no human explanation. We simply do not have the facts. The fact that so many try to understand is testament to the need to understand. The teacher, GOD, imparts on his creation, YOU AND ME, the knowledge that he wants us to have. Nothing more. Not all, just what he wants to give each one of us.

Maybe the issue is the concept of "A" God. In the Bible God says "I AM" period! What does that mean? Think about it.

We are all masters of our own universes...........until we are not. We understand how the world works until we do not...............
We follow the rules, obey the laws and we still end up trying to understand why things didn't go are way. Babies die, our love ones pass. Where is the justice? Where is God?

There is much in just simply asking him and then being silent and listening.

Ask anything of the Lord and then just be quiet........and Listen.

Just curious here. Have you ever met anyone in your lifetime that claims they actually heard the voice of God.
I'm not talking about voices in their head, or words on a page, but actually heard audibly from God.
If so, please share the details.
I've never encountered anyone, and I have no idea if those individuals exist, but it would be interesting, if not fascinating, to hear their story.

 

[Radrook]

I'm not sure that I believe in Poughkeepsie, NY ? I don't know anyone, personally, that's happened to go there. Like the Bible, there's maps and books that describe it, but do I KNOW if it's a real place?

I don't KNOW- - - -I only assume it is until someone can give me concrete evidence that it's not there. I guess I'll just plan to end my days there and in the meantime, until someone convinces me otherwise, I'll plan on settling in.

Please note that the bible doesn't tell us to believe in God merely because it tells us to believe. As I keep pointing out, the Bible specifically tells us that the evidence for the existence of a creator is evident in the creation itself. This is especially compelling ever since the concrete evidence of a DNA code was discovered. The Bible also recognizes that there are people who will stubbornly remain unconvinced despite the evidence in nature and it tells us that such persons are inexcusable. So the popular idea that believers in a creator believe in a creator only because the Bible tells us so, and nothing more, is incorrect.

BTW
Proclaiming things as insufficient evidence is easy. However, disqualifying such evidence without constantly resorting to all kinds of glaringly obvious fallacious reasoning, is an entirely different matter.

 

[JustDave]

Funny but I don’t think I am the least bit spiritual. Of course I have values as we all do but like “God” I only recognize what “spiritual” is by seeing how the way others use the word maps on to my experience.

My favorite psychologist, the late James Hillman, distinguishes between “spirit” and “soul”. Like him, I am a soul man and regard much spirituality as largely escapist.

I suppose it's semantics, but from my perspective, if you believe you have soul, you qualify as spiritual (IMO).

 

[MarkD]

I suppose it's semantics, but from my perspective, if you believe you have soul, you qualify as spiritual (IMO).

Again it depends entirely on what you think that is. I don't think of it as anything immortal and it isn't based on the Christian idea. Does it have a meaning for you? For me it is just something essential to who one really is. But it isn't anything you decide on but rather something you have to discover.

 

[rbtvgo]

I sort of agree except I don’t think there is any separation between the created and the creator and I don’t think we are forced to do anything, most especially not forced to believe in God. Entirely optional as we can see by the variety of what people believe in.

your right. you are not forced to believe. Your choice

 

[rbtvgo]

Just curious here. Have you ever met anyone in your lifetime that claims they actually heard the voice of God.
I'm not talking about voices in their head, or words on a page, but actually heard audibly from God.
If so, please share the details.
I've never encountered anyone, and I have no idea if those individuals exist, but it would be interesting, if not fascinating, to hear their story.

I don't know what you mean by the "voice of God". Have no idea what that would sound like.
I simply talk to him and then wait. Words come back to me that are not mine. we can all conjure up a dialogue with some one but this is different. It is not responses that I would impart in an imagined dialog. They surprise me and make me wonder where this is coming from. I will research and then realize that it was not me talking to myself but someone else. I don't know if this makes any sense but no matter. I am simply being honest.
God does not suffer fools. If you truly want to connect then you have to truly listen. You have to be open and then deal with what you may get back. Not everyone gets a response. God created us. Vessals for mercy and vessels for wrath. (9:22).
I suspect you are for mercy but it's not my call. Your question leads me to believe he is reaching out to you like he did to me.

 

[bobcat]

I don't know what you mean by the "voice of God". Have no idea what that would sound like.
I simply talk to him and then wait. Words come back to me that are not mine. we can all conjure up a dialogue with some one but this is different. It is not responses that I would impart in an imagined dialog. They surprise me and make me wonder where this is coming from. I will research and then realize that it was not me talking to myself but someone else. I don't know if this makes any sense but no matter. I am simply being honest.
God does not suffer fools. If you truly want to connect then you have to truly listen. You have to be open and then deal with what you may get back. Not everyone gets a response. God created us. Vessals for mercy and vessels for wrath. (9:22).
I suspect you are for mercy but it's not my call. Your question leads me to believe he is reaching out to you like he did to me.

Just wondering if you have ever heard reports of anyone hearing God's audible voice. The Bible says that he spoke at the baptism of Jesus, and he spoke to Saul of Tarsus, and he spoke to Moses, and Abraham, and others, so a voice was involved. But I've never met anyone who claimed that happened to them.

 

[JustDave]

Again it depends entirely on what you think that is. I don't think of it as anything immortal and it isn't based on the Christian idea. Does it have a meaning for you? For me it is just something essential to who one really is. But it isn't anything you decide on but rather something you have to discover.

For me: My closest synonym would be "magical." Faith in the unknowable, things not of this world, and heavily loaded with religious values. But it's one of many words that may be in transition, as it seems like people use it in different ways. Today it is common to use the word as an apology for not having normal religious affiliations of the past. I hear often, "I don't go to church, but I am a spiritual person." What that means I have to guess. Also, we cannot see, touch, or hear spirits, but by definition they must be of the spiritual world.

Because of the array of usages, I wouldn't put total authority in the hands of Merriam Webster. The definition you gave doesn't say much to me, because while it may be essential to who you are, it doesn't tell me who you are, especially if you deny being spiritual. I also agree that it may not be something you decide, but just discover. This is the same way one arrives at atheism. It's discovered, not chosen or decided.

 

[MarkD]

Faith in the unknowable

I think everyone has faith in something that isn't entirely knowable as in completely justifiable. It is like the postulates which organize our understanding of the world. But the postulates themselves cannot be grounded in finer and simpler underlying truths. A human being is more than reason, there is also feeling, intuition, imagination and emotional intelligence. A human life always encompasses more than one can express or reason to but those who rely excessively on reason and science to the exclusion of the rest may not recognize what it is they hold on faith. None of this can be argued for simply and none of what can be said in its defense can overcome firmly entrenched bias. Meaning, purpose and values are all entirely natural and depend on direct experience, not magic.

But I assume you are telling me what is true for you in your experience and I try not to undermine people's faith, whatever they may place that in.

 

[JustDave]

I think everyone has faith in something that isn't entirely knowable as in completely justifiable.

I presume that you defend the belief in your soul on the basis of faith. Is there a certain degree of faith involved in that, or is faith a quality without degrees? Is there any room for justifiable doubt about your soul?

 

[Mr. Ed]

Why does he need to be benevolent or merciful ? He can be and often is, but he is still GOD. His son got hammered to a cross and bled. Why did God sacrifice his son ? For what?
To pay the price of our sins.
God will not be mocked. God will not discuss with his creation why he does what he does. He simply wants us to believe in him, trust in him and acknowledge are need for him. Fight with him, ignore him, thumb your nose at him and sooner or later you will be calling out to him.

Why bother calling out to a God that you do not believe exist. Call out to your mother, or father, or your best friend when your facing the end. They can help you?

No offense to anyone but doesn't it make you wonder why?

I don’t think god is gender privy

 

[Mr. Ed]

Why not? Why does this needs any discussion?

Why do we believe in Santa Claus?
Why do we believe in tooth fairy?
Why do we believe in aliens?
Why do we believe in UFOs?
Why do we believe in Bermuda triangle?
Why do we believe in Constitution?
Why do we believe in the President?

...

The list is endless.

Yet we question the creator when a visible creation stares us in our faces constantly.

Utter foolishness!

Why do we believe in Santa Claus?
Why do we believe in tooth fairy?
Why do we believe in aliens?
Why do we believe in UFOs?
Why do we believe in Bermuda triangle?
Why do we believe in Constitution?
Why do we believe in the President?


Tell me you haven’t questioned the things you mentioned here?

To question is to learn and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[MarkD]

I presume that you defend the belief in your soul on the basis of faith. Is there a certain degree of faith involved in that, or is faith a quality without degrees? Is there any room for justifiable doubt about your soul?

Some things are better left out of skepticism. Where I see soul operating is in creative endeavors. A less tainted term might be one's "muse". Perhaps I have no talent whatsoever. What good could come of that line of inquiry? Perhaps there is no meaning in the world nor purpose in living? Why go there? In all creative enterprises one must be receptive. Skeptical analysis only takes things apart, it cannot put them back together.

"Soul", "God" and "Faith" are all words I'd emptied of meaning early in life when I felt everything real must arise naturally in a merely physical world. I now realize the folly in that. It was a lot of work to get to the point where I could see faith in physicalism and faith in something greater which is not reducible to atoms and determinism were both possible choices. Now I strive to build up my belief in whatever it is which feeds the muse, not question it.

That doesn't mean I don't value science, reason or the careful use of language. I just recognize that in seeking to make things clearer and more certain there is a risk of merely removing important things from ones own view. Belief isn't risk free but belief in something is unavoidable. It is part of the human condition.

 

[JustDave]

Some things are better left out of skepticism.

Ok, it sounds then like faith is not a matter of degree. It's on or off. Am I right? I'm only pushing for clarification. It's not a challenge.

 

[MarkD]

Ok, it sounds then like faith is not a matter of degree. It's on or off. Am I right? I'm only pushing for clarification. It's not a challenge.

I think you're right except I don't think having faith turned off is sustainable. Faith is just the ability to keep putting one foot in front of the other while trusting that the ground beneath you is solid and what you sense, feel and understand are reliable.

In creative endeavors and matters of the heart rationality and science almost don't apply. Wrong tool for the job. Since I want those things in my life I put my faith in my muse or whatever that something greater is inside that allows one to recognize what is right or better.