massachusetts proposed gun control

Uh-oh, I gotta go talk to the President. Iraq is coming unglued. We're gonna lose the whole thing. I don't want nothing more to do with these people. Regardless they're goning to be fighting for ever more. Those are not terrorist, those are what was there when we first got there and they want their terrirtory back. Woe to those Suni. They want their country back and that oli money. Let 'em have it Mr' Prez. Tell 'em we gave at the office.
 

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Davey if your going after (overlooking your pun) the big guns the NRA, you still missed the point. The NRA is me, my neighbor the guy down the street. Each time the 40 million active shooters buy something at any sporting goods store we are asked if we want to throw in an extra dollar. In a lot of cases the store, Cabalas, Bass will even match the dollar donation to the NRA-ILA (ILA is probably the one you really want). All these people believe in the 2nd amendment and by joining together we can act as one. Isn't democracy great. God I love this country!!
 

While I usually don't like ad hominem attacks, I dislike having to make the same point over and over.

The 2nd amendment is not about hunting, target shooting, or plinking.

I would like to add one more --- Its not a popularity contest!!!!!!!
 
I hope that we focus more on the root cause of all these shootings, on the psychological causes and try to find some solutions that will reduce these crazyness. Taking away guns doesn't solve much of anything, the crazy is still there. My mother used to say that every rape and killing always happened in California but that is because she was watching a show that was based on California police events. Same thing with these killings - we only see what the media choose to sensationalize. We have to look at the big picture (and no- i do not own a gun). Perhaps too many meds going around idk...
 
Mirabilis said:
I hope that we focus more on the root cause of all these shootings, on the psychological causes and try to find some solutions that will reduce these crazyness. Taking away guns doesn't solve much of anything, the crazy is still there. My mother used to say that every rape and killing always happened in California but that is because she was watching a show that was based on California police events. Same thing with these killings - we only see what the media choose to sensationalize. We have to look at the big picture (and no- i do not own a gun). Perhaps too many meds going around idk...
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Good post.
 
Ad hominem
An attack upon an opponent in order to discredit their arguement or opinion. Ad hominems are used by immature and/or unintelligent people because they are unable to counter their opponent using logic and intelligence.

Guess this mean both of us,ya think rt3?
 
Dame Warrigal said:
This thread is very interesting to read because of the diverse opinions being expressed.
I have nothing to add except to say that I'm learning heaps. :applause:
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Learning heaps? try this one it kinda goes both ways re guns.

This amendment is VERY controversial - some people argue about every word. It is commonly accepted that Americans have the right to own guns, but under what conditions, what types of guns, and how many often becomes a focus of debate. Did the founding fathers actually mean machine guns could be owned by citizens for shooting rabbits? Of course not, there weren't any machine guns yet. But exactly what they did mean has been the center of the storm on gun control for at least 200 years.
  1. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Some would argue that "A well regulated militia" means that the right to bear arms protected states and not individuals. They say that since we now have standing armies (the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines), we no longer need militias, and if we don't need militias, then people have no need for guns. Do you believe that Americans need guns?[/FONT]
  2. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]There are those who believe that we need guns to protect ourselves and our families from criminals. Is this a good reason to have a gun in the house?[/FONT]
  3. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]There are those who believe that people need guns to protect themselves and their families from government. Does this sound like a good reason to keep a gun in the house?[/FONT]
  4. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]What about the type of gun the amendment protects? Should the government have the right to say that there are certain guns that people cannot have? What if you are a gun collector, and you have every gun ever made from 1921-1999 except for the AK47. You don't want to shoot anybody, but you collect guns and want an AK47. Should the government be allowed to tell you that you can't have this model gun?[/FONT]
  5. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]What problems arise from having guns in the home? Who is most likely to get shot by that gun?[/FONT]
  6. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Is there anyway to prevent the tragedy of little children being shot accidentally in their homes? Does the government have a duty to protect children from accidentally being shot?[/FONT]
  7. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]What if someone breaks into a home and steals a gun collection? What prevents those guns from being used later in a crime?[/FONT]
  8. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]What about hunters rights? In some parts of the country hunting is very popular. Are the people who enjoy hunting responsible gun owners, practicing gun safety?[/FONT]
  9. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]There is a lot of talk right now about registration and trigger locks, and smart guns. Should the government be allowed to pass laws about the ownership of guns? Is it OK for the government to make people wait 30 days to get a gun so they can do a background check?[/FONT]
  10. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]A popular saying is, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns." Do you believe this is true?[/FONT]
  11. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]If the government required everyone over 18 to carry a gun at all times, would criminals be less likely to commit crimes? If people did not know who had a gun, would they be less likely to start a fight? Some places have tried to do this, and make people carry a gun. How successful do you think this plan would be?[/FONT]
  12. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Rewrite the 2nd amendment to make it say what you believe we should do about guns.
    [/FONT]
 
machine guns are not allowed in any state for the hunting of anything by state agencies
no crimes or killings using machine guns have been committed in the US for since they were banned, the ones that were used by criminals who stole them from Armories, (darn guys didn't register those guns).
private ownership of machine guns is currently prohibited by federal law.
#1 this was decided by the supreme court recently in McDonald- an individual has the right to protect themselves. This struck down Chicago's draconian gun laws.
#2 this was struck down by the supreme court in McDonald also, if the individual feels the need yes, it is not a group right.
#3 VERY GOOD REASON
#4 the government already tells you what guns you can have and can't have. If you have a class 10 lic. (I think-- could be 3) you can have a tank.
#5 domestic violence statistics are not a part of this consideration as it is weapon of opportunity and will occur regardless of the presence of guns
#6 as much as they have a duty to protect them from swimming pool drownings which are 50 times for frequent
#7 guns don't kill people -- people kill people
#8 every state has a hunters safey program - passing is a requirement for lic.
#9 3 questions decide what your asking
#10 another popular saying, "its not a question of prying the gun from my dead hand, its a question of if you are willing to die trying to take it. Do you believe this is true?
#11Police chief of Detroit thinks it is , and armed society is a polite society
#12 retired supreme court judge (simmons) has just wrote a book on that, as he was an advocate. If the Obamanistas get their way it probably will be at least tried.
ignoring the 900+ sheriffs across the US who have already sent a statement stating they will not enforce any thing against the constitution.
 
My husband's an NRA member, and believe that all law abiding Americans have the right and freedom to own any type of guns they choose for collection, protection, hunting, target practice, or no reason at all. An armed society is a polite society, and if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. I'd rather not be a victim of a criminal or gang member who's packing if I can help it. I keep a loaded gun in my home to be ready for any intruders who wish to do harm to me or my family, luckily I have never had cause to use it, but better have it and not use it, than not have any protection at all. As they say, when seconds count, police are minutes away.

In past history, families have had guns and rifles in their homes, especially in rural areas. They were all kept loaded and ready to go if needed. Children were taught to respect guns, and learned the safe and proper way to use them. The guns are not the problem here, the people are.
 
re:several of which are loaded and ready in various places.

That kinda scares the hell outta me,I just hope you dont have any youngsters in that house.
 
SeaBreeze said:
I'm an NRA member, and believe that all law abiding Americans have the right and freedom to own any type of guns they choose for collection, protection, hunting, target practice, or no reason at all. An armed society is a polite society, and if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. I'd rather not be a victim of a criminal or gang member who's packing if I can help it. I keep a loaded gun in my home to be ready for any intruders who wish to do harm to me or my family, luckily I have never had cause to use it, but better have it and not use it, than not have any protection at all. As they say, when seconds count, police are minutes away.

In past history, families have had guns and rifles in their homes, especially in rural areas. They were all kept loaded and ready to go if needed. Children were taught to respect guns, and learned the safe and proper way to use them. The guns are not the problem here, the people are.
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I'm not SeaBreeze, but I think you made a point as to why more gun control is needed. I grew up in a rural area and was taught to respect guns and the safe and proper way to use them as were my siblings.

You state the guns are not the problem, but the people are. People are much, much more numerous than way back when. Now there are so many violent movies, videos and so many poor people. Our population has grown and along with it a family can rarely live on one income alone, thus in a middle class working family many of them are at their wits ends when it comes to keeping their children in line. Also some of those working class people can't have the time to keep up on what is really going on in the world around them and get lax about safety when it comes to their collective possessions...may we say, possibly, of guns. Certainly, in that case one could say the people are the problem, but then having those guns in existence is certainly a problem also.
 
I think that Seabreeze has put this in a good perspective, as well. We do not have any guns at this time, but only because my husband does not want one around; so I respect his feelings on that. Otherwise, I have been around guns all of my life. My parents lived on a farm, and Mom always told the story about the big old bear trying to get into the house, the dogs treed it; and she shot it out of the tree.
My parents helped people have meat to eat during the Great Depression because they were both great marksmen, and the game warden gave then extra bullets to bring home a deer for families who did not have a capable hunter.
Even after we moved into town, my dad went hunting in the fall and usually brought home a deer for us to eat that winter, which we shared with the family next door.

People here in America grew up in much the same way as I did, and except for criminals,and mobsters killing off each other, we have not ever had much of this senseless killing until the last ten years or so.
It is not just the guns, something else is changing. Whether it is the graphic movies and video games, parents not being home to educate their children as much, or maybe that our children are being medicated with mind-altering drugs right from the time they start school; some , or all of this, is affecting people in such a way that seemingly normal people suddenly go berserk and starting shooting up their school or work place.
I would not even be surprised if some of it does not come from the government mind-control projects.

But, one way or the other, it is not just because there are people with guns. There have always been people with guns, and they didn't do this.
In fact; most of the shootings, they actually tell us on the news that the shooter just acquired the gun to go on the shooting rampage. They were not someone that already had their guns, and knew how to care for and use a weapon.
 
Davey Jones said:
re:several of which are loaded and ready in various places.

That kinda scares the hell outta me,I just hope you dont have any youngsters in that house.
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Why are you so scared of guns, Davey? Respect them yes, but they are not to be feared.

If I'm out of the house by the workshop or garage and see something amiss, I don't have to go to the house to get a gun. Youngsters around here also grew up with guns.

Last summer when the grandkids came we set up targets and shot a variety of guns.
 
I never said I was scared of guns,did I?
I own one and its always fired at the shooting range.(Beretta PX4)
Its all these damn new rules ,regulations,laws etc that keep popping up now and then and most have little enforcement for any of it.
Years ago you had to be very careful crossing a street in traffic,nowadays you're crossing the street with a showoff with his holstered gun.
So what should I be afraid of, the car or that guy ?
 
Davey Jones said:
I never said I was scared of guns,did I?
I own one and its always fired at the shooting range.(Beretta PX4)
Its all these damn new rules ,regulations,laws etc that keep popping up now and then and most have little enforcement for any of it.
Years ago you had to be very careful crossing a street in traffic,nowadays you're crossing the street with a showoff with his holstered gun.
So what should I be afraid of, the car or that guy ?
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Good points....the regulations need to be enforced.

We need to be able to go to a theater without being scared of the guy with a gun strapped to his leg.

Children need to be able to go to school without fear of being shot.

We need to be able to go to the mall without fear of being shoot.

Where are those rights?

Are people in gun controlled countries able to walk in crowds without this fear?
 
I've read the article, Seabreeze, and I followed the link to the statistics contained in it.
It's easy to play with numbers to minimise a problem.

It's also easy to select an example why a problem is still alarming.
I submit this example
Last August, for example, a gun discharged in a 5-year-old’s backpack while students were waiting for the opening bell in the cafeteria at Westside Elementary School in Memphis. No one was hurt.
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A five year old has access to a loaded gun? :eek:
And then there is this:
Schools generally are much safer than they were five, 10 or 15 years ago, Stephens said. While a single death is one too many, Stephens noted that perspective is important. In Chicago there were 500 homicides in 2012, about the same number in the nation’s 132,000-plus K-12 schools over two decades.

“I believe schools are much safer than they used to be but clearly they still have a good ways to go,” Stephens said.
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Clearly, because I can't think of a single instance of someone, some child, being shot in any school in my country.
You've had 500 homicides in schools in two decades ?

We've only just started installing security fencing around our schools but its purpose is to keep out weekend vandals.
That's when the gates get locked.
Our schools are much more likely to be burnt down than subject to gunfire.

I've selected both of these examples from this article: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/despite-increased-security-school-shootings-continue/ There is a lot of discussion about the causes of this problem which is always a good place to start when looking for a solution. The concluding paragraphs do not blame guns per se

“This is a societal problem, it’s not a school problem,” Duncan said.

Bond, who is now the safe schools specialist with the National Association of Secondary School Principals, said there was a time when he believed school shootings would stop. He’s come to a sad realization that gives him a “sick pit in my stomach” that they won’t end, he said.

“Schools are still part of the American society and the American society is violent,” Bond said.
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We will have to endure with what we've got because it is the law of the land, until some future date when an enlightened Supreme Court will rule we have misinterpreted the founding fathers all these many years. And that the Second Amendment was referring to the militia and not to the errant masses. Much like we have the Electorial College as a safeguard against the errant masses who might otherwise do something foolish during a national election.
 
drifter said:
We will have to endure with what we've got until some future date when an enlightened Supreme Court will rule we have misinterpreted the founding fathers all these many years. And that the Second Amendment wass referring to the militia and not to the errant masses. Much like we have the Electorial College as a safeguard against the errant masses who might otherwise do something foolish.
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Exactly my thought too. Now that you said "militia" expect a few here to straighten you out on that word.
:)
 
So regardless of how you choose to define "militia" it would likely be simple to form one. The militia the founding fathers were aware of was nothing more than a collaborative grouping of local civilians, farmers mostly; some might consider the local gun club, American Legion or even the NRA as such a collaborative grouping. You all can wish for some "hope and change" but the fact is it ain't gonna happen; however, if it ever did happen be prepared for a totalitarian, tyrannical government on a scale beyond comprehension.
 
"militia" today has been defined in hundreds of different ways by hundreds of different organizations here in the U.S.
Some of todays militia are disorganzed consortium of citizen soldiers.

I going to stick what our forefathers ment as " A well regulated militia" which in todays terms means our National Guard.
 
Opinion not fact; the SCOTUS has not defined the terminology " A well regulated militia", it had a few opportunities to do so as cited below but has so far chosen not to do so:

U.S. Supreme Court (1997): In Miller, we determined that the Second Amendment did not guarantee a citizen’s right to possess a sawed off shotgun because that weapon had not been shown to be "ordinary military equipment" that could "contribute to the common defense." Id., at 178. The Court did not, however, attempt to define, or otherwise construe, the substantive right protected by the Second Amendment.

U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit (2007): The Amendment does not protect “the right of militiamen to keep and bear arms,” but rather “the right of the people.” The operative clause, properly read, protects the ownership and use of weaponry beyond that needed to preserve the state militias.
 

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