In your opinion, what do we owe our adult children? or grandchildren?

I cannot add anything new to what has already been said. We are responsible for our children until adulthood, then they take responsibility for themselves. We owe them nothing...and they owe us nothing.
 

Rosemarie said:
I cannot add anything new to what has already been said. We are responsible for our children until adulthood, then they take responsibility for themselves. We owe them nothing...and they owe us nothing.
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Why have children in the first place if what you assert it true? :sneaky:

Families owe each other a great deal, if they've been loving towards one another in my view, "if there's no love involved I'll accept your assertion. :censored: .
 
I am truly, deeply sorry for people who have difficult relationships with their children. Mine are among the greatest joys of my life. We laugh, talk, commiserate and share our lives with each other.

If I wouldn't lend them a hand when they need it, to whom would I ever feel moved to lend it? My children aren't grasping or greedy. If they came to us for money it would be under extraordinary circumstances, and only for necessities. In cases like that, why wouldn't we share our resources? (They'll eventually get everything anyway.)

My mother and parents-in-law were generous with their time, talents, advice and (on rare occasions) money. We were kind, respectful, nearby, helpful and available to our parents. We cared for and protected them when they were no longer able to do so for themselves, and did so without complaint or resentment.

We didn't owe them - we loved them. Love carries certain obligations that the soul craves to carry out, including caring for them when Caring for others in need is among them. By my observation, this is how it works in most families.

Remember the Hollies song?

It's a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we're on the way to there
Why not share?
And the load
Doesn't weigh me down at all
He ain't heavy, he's my brother
He's my brother

Or my child. Or my parent. Or my neighbor. Or my friend.
 

grahamg said:
I'll have to find some comments to add to this thread, as I feel this is "my subject", (or one I keep banging on about anyway), but I'd first like to endorse most of the above comments.

It will be too easy for me to repeat things I've said before, or in fact very hard for me to avoid doing so completely, but if I state a few facts, perhaps that will be helpful to someone, ("as an excluded parent of twenty four years and counting"!).

My daughter aged twelve stated: "that even if a judge ordered her mother to allow me contact with her, she would not come".

My daughter has stated on many occasions: "He ruined my life until the age of twelve, dont let him ruin any more of my life".

My daughter stated: "He never took me anywhere interesting on contact visits", and her mother and "new daddy" stated: "It was cruel to take my daughter to church when she did not wish to go".

My daughter stated: "Every letter he sends me makes me more pleased I dont have to see him anymore".

In spite of all the above, my daughter, possibly persuaded by her husband, allowed me to be present when she brought her six months old son to visit the farm where my father lived, a year before he died, so four years ago. My daughter chose to stand beside me at my father's funeral, in a large church where there was plenty of room to stand elsewhere, and although I'd tried to let her know the funeral details I'd no idea she was going to attend. My daughter remains as the sole beneficiary of my will, although she'll never need any money I might leave, and in my opinion she had a wonderful childhood, added to by my ten or so years of contact with her after my wife broke up the marriage, (a time when she repeated often "Keep coming daddy", though she did not have to say this).

Therefore, when you ask "what do we owe our adult children? or grandchildren?", I'm left thinking why it is so abhorrent to people in western countries to suggest our children owe loving parents and grandparents a great deal?

Why is the focus always so much the other way, and is this a good thing, (I'd suggest not, and a change in family law to reflect at least a more balanced view, is well overdue:unsure: ?
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I find your story compelling in an unusual sort of way.
 
Phoenix said:
I find your story compelling in an unusual sort of way.
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When you're going through it you often think your own situation is unusual too, but I discovered some four years on from the break down in contact with my daughter, that not only were there many parents/fathers in the same boat, there were some unbelievably striking similarities you just couldn't make up.

I stayed in a small guest house in London, where I found in my room a magazine featuring a story about the former England rugby captain, Will Carling, (he was supposed to have had a short affair with Princess Diana, or at least Wills first wife Lisa believed so, and it split them up). Will Carling then met a married woman with two young children, broke up that marriage apparently, and the story in the magazine focussed on the difficulties the jilted husband had seeing his two children.

Those two children were reported as using the exact same words towards their dad, "I hate you!", or " You are horrible!".,..., as my own child stated about me so often, to anyone who might listen, (my child then stating "Keep coming daddy", blissfully unaware of the contradiction).

Another statement my daughter used to make about contact with me was, "Its all political"....., (what do you think she meant by that statement?)!

I know my daughter sometimes felt guilty if she'd enjoyed the contact visit, and was acutely aware of the need to hide her feelings, if she had enjoyed herself. Some witnesses supporting my ex when contact broke down said they'd seen my daughter "appearing as though she hasn't enjoyed herself", (when they were in her mothers house, whilst I dropped my daughter off).

Hence my daughter may well have been right, my contact with her was "political", at least in the sense it was open to endless criticism, and the quality of contact and my relationship with my child could be misconstrued, either deliberately, or by well meaning busy bodies. :( .
 
This thread has served as a reminder for me that I need to get wills and "final matters" taken care of, for my wife and I. We each have a daughter and son, and I have an estranged adopted daughter from a previous marriage. Eventhough there are no longer hostilities between us, it wouldn't be fair to the other adult children to share inheritance with her.
 
The flip side to the question of what I owe them emerges when I think of all the times that my adult children have reminded me to let them know if my wife and I ever need help. They have expressed the desire for us to move out to Washington State so that will be easier for them to help us as we get older. I have seen several instances where adult children were extremely helpful to their aging parents (and a number who were not). I am confident that we will be among those who get help if we need it.

As to what I owe them, we will not be wasteful with our resources, and I expect to leave both of them with a sizable contribution to their retirement funds. Fair is fair on a question like this, I love them both and I intend to show it in a meaningful way.
 
grahamg said:
When you're going through it you often think your own situation is unusual too, but I discovered some four years on from the break down in contact with my daughter, that not only were there many parents/fathers in the same boat, there were some unbelievably striking similarities you just couldn't make up.

I stayed in a small guest house in London, where I found in my room a magazine featuring a story about the former England rugby captain, Will Carling, (he was supposed to have had a short affair with Princess Diana, or at least Wills first wife Lisa believed so, and it split them up). Will Carling then met a married woman with two young children, broke up that marriage apparently, and the story in the magazine focussed on the difficulties the jilted husband had seeing his two children.

Those two children were reported as using the exact same words towards their dad, "I hate you!", or " You are horrible!".,..., as my own child stated about me so often, to anyone who might listen, (my child then stating "Keep coming daddy", blissfully unaware of the contradiction).

Another statement my daughter used to make about contact with me was, "Its all political"....., (what do you think she meant by that statement?)!

I know my daughter sometimes felt guilty if she'd enjoyed the contact visit, and was acutely aware of the need to hide her feelings, if she had enjoyed herself. Some witnesses supporting my ex when contact broke down said they'd seen my daughter "appearing as though she hasn't enjoyed herself", (when they were in her mothers house, whilst I dropped my daughter off).

Hence my daughter may well have been right, my contact with her was "political", at least in the sense it was open to endless criticism, and the quality of contact and my relationship with my child could be misconstrued, either deliberately, or by well meaning busy bodies. :( .
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Human relationships, especially family relationships can be very complicated.
 
Phoenix said:
Human relationships, especially family relationships can be very complicated.
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I agree that people can speculate endlessly about the quality of someone's family relationships, or equally about their own, where they've every right to do so if they wish, (not that it always does any good in my view). However, the rub comes when busy bodies stick their noses into the affairs of others to the extent they sometimes do, like the ones I described above, and even in a small way, influence children who already believe their relationships with a parent aren't just "complicated", but "highly political", and there's an industry of professional busy bodies judging the parents, feeding off it all. :censored: !
 
StarSong said:
I am truly, deeply sorry for people who have difficult relationships with their children. Mine are among the greatest joys of my life. We laugh, talk, commiserate and share our lives with each other.

If I wouldn't lend them a hand when they need it, to whom would I ever feel moved to lend it? My children aren't grasping or greedy. If they came to us for money it would be under extraordinary circumstances, and only for necessities. In cases like that, why wouldn't we share our resources? (They'll eventually get everything anyway.)

My mother and parents-in-law were generous with their time, talents, advice and (on rare occasions) money. We were kind, respectful, nearby, helpful and available to our parents. We cared for and protected them when they were no longer able to do so for themselves, and did so without complaint or resentment.

We didn't owe them - we loved them. Love carries certain obligations that the soul craves to carry out, including caring for them when Caring for others in need is among them. By my observation, this is how it works in most families.

Remember the Hollies song?

It's a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we're on the way to there
Why not share?
And the load
Doesn't weigh me down at all
He ain't heavy, he's my brother
He's my brother

Or my child. Or my parent. Or my neighbor. Or my friend.
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Most impressed with your post, and can't fault it at all. :) .
I just wanted to mention or add something I've noticed "from the animal kingdom", to question whether or not it has any relevance(?).

If the offspring of almost any higher species were to be attacked, or taken from their mothers by a predator, then a response of some kind is to be expected from the rest of the group. However, whilst they all might be alarmed, it is true that once the lion, tiger or whatever, has grabbed its meal, the rest of the herd knows they and their own offspring are safe for now.

Obviously, our children in western countries are mostly not likely to be predated upon by large meat eating cats, 🦁. My proposed analogy falls down before its started you might think therefore, but I would still argue even fathers like myself, are instinctively fearful of our children being lead astray, "when new alpha males" appear on the scene, and our partners head gets swayed enough to break up the marriage.

An old neighbour of mine, who knew both myself and my then wife, commented unequivocally when I discussed the issue of whether my daughters new stepfather might treat her as well as his own child, (my ex getting pregnant shortly after she left me). He stated my daughter would always come second in those circumstances to his own child, and the neighbour was no fool, and he had broad experience having fought in our army during WWII, raised his own family with his wife successfully, etc. etc.

"Predators come in all forms don't they", not just in the animal kingdom, and selling my ex the idea "it was best for our child to live with her mother in his house", was something he did early on, (whilst my ex was all too ready to believe it, though what it means now they've split I don't know?). :unsure: .
 
I quoted this in something I wrote recently.. the original source was a book published in 1978 (by Quentin and Emmy Lou Schenk):
"There is an egalitarianism in the mature, natural family.. when all members of the natural family are adults.."

That's the #1 thing I believe parents owe their adult-aged kids.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
I think we owe them our support (unless they do something illegal, which thankfully I don't have to worry about). I don't mean financially, not necessarily anyway. I think we owe them respect and to be treated as adults.
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"I feel it my duty to point out any weaknesses in seemingly sensible points of view", (or to stick my nose in at least).
When you're going through the family law process to try to maintain contact with your child one of the assessments made by court appointed officials is how adult your twelve year old child appears to be. If they appear more grown up for their age then the child's views on contact with their father is taken more seriously, or given more weight.

In other words if you've shown true love and care towards your child, built up their self esteem as much as you're able, all, then whatever the child says against you is going to be " listened to and taken seriously". If on the other hand, you happen to be one of those parents reluctant to allow your child to grow up, and don't allow them to make any decisions that matter the "infantilised child" isn't likely to be listened to as much by court appointed officials, and they're more likely to assume the child needs more parenting, not less!

I know I'm derailing or misconstruing your comments to make a point largely irrelevant to your arguments, and really I totally agree with your comments. I hope you can understand the arguments I'm making too, and forgive me for taking liberties with your post. :) !
 
grahamg said:
When you're going through it you often think your own situation is unusual too, but I discovered some four years on from the break down in contact with my daughter, that not only were there many parents/fathers in the same boat, there were some unbelievably striking similarities you just couldn't make up.

I stayed in a small guest house in London, where I found in my room a magazine featuring a story about the former England rugby captain, Will Carling, (he was supposed to have had a short affair with Princess Diana, or at least Wills first wife Lisa believed so, and it split them up). Will Carling then met a married woman with two young children, broke up that marriage apparently, and the story in the magazine focussed on the difficulties the jilted husband had seeing his two children.

Those two children were reported as using the exact same words towards their dad, "I hate you!", or " You are horrible!".,..., as my own child stated about me so often, to anyone who might listen, (my child then stating "Keep coming daddy", blissfully unaware of the contradiction).

Another statement my daughter used to make about contact with me was, "Its all political"....., (what do you think she meant by that statement?)!

I know my daughter sometimes felt guilty if she'd enjoyed the contact visit, and was acutely aware of the need to hide her feelings, if she had enjoyed herself. Some witnesses supporting my ex when contact broke down said they'd seen my daughter "appearing as though she hasn't enjoyed herself", (when they were in her mothers house, whilst I dropped my daughter off).

Hence my daughter may well have been right, my contact with her was "political", at least in the sense it was open to endless criticism, and the quality of contact and my relationship with my child could be misconstrued, either deliberately, or by well meaning busy bodies. :( .
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How old was your daughter when she made that statement?
 
JaniceM said:
How old was your daughter when she made that statement?
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Very young to have such an insight, stating issues surrounding contact, or her contact with me being "political", (in the sense I believe of her knowing she had to hide her feelings from her mother, plus others who might stick their noses in to criticise the quality of contact or just feel they had a right to form judgements about someone's personal life).

So how old was she? ..........Under ten years old I think(?)
 
grahamg said:
Very young to have such an insight, stating issues surrounding contact, or her contact with me being "political", (in the sense I believe of her knowing she had to hide her feelings from her mother, plus others who might stick their noses in to criticise the quality of contact or just feel they had a right to form judgements about someone's personal life).

So how old was she? ..........Under ten years old I think(?)
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From posts you've made I kinda figured she was rather young at the time.
A ten-year-old child is not going to say "It's all political." With that kind of vocabulary, it's like the expression somebody "put words in her mouth."
 
JaniceM said:
From posts you've made I kinda figured she was rather young at the time.
A ten-year-old child is not going to say "It's all political." With that kind of vocabulary, it's like the expression somebody "put words in her mouth."
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Believe me this child was capable of using such words as "Its all political...", (in relation to contact with me!).

I'm glad you've come back with a response so quickly, as it gives me the chance to add more facts to the story I've presented so far, and resisted doing so in my last post to avoid it becoming too long and possibly confusing.

When my daughter was ten years old I managed to arrange a five day staying access or contact visit, so she could travel to my home in the south of England, (I brought my daughter down from her mothers home south of Manchester, two hundred miles away). During the almost ten years of contact I managed my daughter had only spent weekends away with me on four occasions, and one of these had only been agreed when a judge in the family court castigated my ex.wife's lawyers at the start, asked my ex whether I'd ever been invited into her house with her new husband, (knowing the answer would be " no"). Then the judge expressed the view my child spending a weekend with her dad, was really just an extension of the regular contact I'd maintained for about four years already. At this point my ex and her legal team capitulated.

You've had more detail there than really necessary, but I'm attempting to give you as much background as I can, before going on to the five day staying contact story.

Okay, my daughter had not said she wanted to come for this short holiday to stay with me, (previous short holidays my daughter has assented to, but done so in a way her mother wasn't sure about intentionally). My daughter attempted to contact her mother twice per day on my telephone, even though I'd told her she could use my telephone only once per day, (pre mobile phones of course).

On the first day at my home I took my to a restaurant run by a friend of mine. Half way through the meal my daughter stood up and announced in front of the staff and other visitors, "I want everyone to know I hate him!", and then sat down to continue her meal, (the staff who were friends if mine said they'd never seen anything like it in their lives!). A similar pattern of behaviour played out on a couple more occasions, but luckily abated thereafter, helped I think by my new girlfriend Jenny coming over to stay too, (my daughter checking btw we were socially distanced in sleeping arrangement though!).

My daughter took to Jenny quite well, (she was extremely laid back and friendly with children), and told her "She'd make a trendy mum", though quickly followed it up with, " Not as good as my mum", which Jenny happily accepted and reinforced, saying, "Of course not as good as your mum".

Have I told you enough to let you gain an insight this young child was well capable if figuring out the situation was "political", and in my view those outbursts at the restaurant and elsewhere were to ensure, " no one could assert or prove she'd enjoyed staying with me", (even though I do assert this was enjoyable no matter how it sounds to anyone to the contrary)? :unsure: .
 
grahamg said:
"I feel it my duty to point out any weaknesses in seemingly sensible points of view", (or to stick my nose in at least).
When you're going through the family law process to try to maintain contact with your child one of the assessments made by court appointed officials is how adult your twelve year old child appears to be. If they appear more grown up for their age then the child's views on contact with their father is taken more seriously, or given more weight.

In other words if you've shown true love and care towards your child, built up their self esteem as much as you're able, all, then whatever the child says against you is going to be " listened to and taken seriously". If on the other hand, you happen to be one of those parents reluctant to allow your child to grow up, and don't allow them to make any decisions that matter the "infantilised child" isn't likely to be listened to as much by court appointed officials, and they're more likely to assume the child needs more parenting, not less!

I know I'm derailing or misconstruing your comments to make a point largely irrelevant to your arguments, and really I totally agree with your comments. I hope you can understand the arguments I'm making too, and forgive me for taking liberties with your post. :) !
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I can't "forgive" you until you explain why you attached your reply to my reply?! It has nothing to do with what I said. Had me scratching my head like...WTH??!! Why are you trying to confuse an old lady?! :unsure::rolleyes::ROFLMAO: On the serious tip...sorry to read of the issues you've had with your daughter. Had your relationship been mended?
 
Mr. Ed said:
Owe our children/grandchildren is a poor choice of words. I do not believe we owe anybody, however; we choose to whom and what we share.
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I'm sorry but I think everyone who chooses to bring a child into the world has certain obligations to them until they reach maturity both physically and mentally.
 

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