War, democracy and the US Constitution

Vivjen said:
I know the Russians were allies too; however some of that was to enable them to take over Eastern Europe; US had no desire to take over Western Europe; I don't think!

I have gratitude to all the allies; Canadians; West Indies; Anzac troops, and all the others....free Poles included; but the end result for them was not quite so good...
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I just looked it up and the Soviet Union had a non-aggression pact with Germany until Germany started invading Russia in 1941 and a four year conflict then began between the two of them. During the time they weren't fighting each other, the Soviets invaded invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and part of Romania, Poland and I think Finland.

Later, in 1945 or thereabouts, Stalin met with Roosevelt and Churchill and they began a two fronted attack which 'ended' when they reached Berlin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II


One thing that I have been totally amazed by is the willingness of governments all across the world to change sides and make enemies of the friends of enemies, 'just because'. And the unfortunate victims for all these official manipulations is the soldiers who get sucked into the fights and of course the civilians. I read one article a while back that says 95% of deaths in war are civilians. So much for protecting the people from the maraudings of others eh?
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Japan was trying to surrender? That's news to me.
Do you have a solid link?
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Yes, as a matter of fact I do.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ence/kent-csi/vol9no3/html/v09i3a06p_0001.htm

You will notice that the second link is from the CIA and opens by stating the the Japanese put out peace feelers in January of 1945 and discusses in a bit of detail the talks that went on in that time. Hiroshima was bombed in August. I believe the biggest sticking point was that the Japanese were willing to concede to pretty much everything that was demanded of them except they wanted assurances that their emperor wouldn't be hurt or jailed or whatever. I don't know what it's like now, but at that time, the Japanese revered their emperor as a 'Divine personage' which was why they were insistent on protecting him. America initially wouldn't give that assurance but after the bombs were dropped, apparently that concession was finally made.

And the following link is a pretty good timeline of how that year went down. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/truman.html
 

Germany and Japan were actively engaged in nuclear programs in WWII.... Perhaps it was to beat them to it, before they drop a bomb on the US or England?
 
QuickSilver said:
Germany and Japan were actively engaged in nuclear programs in WWII.... Perhaps it was to beat them to it, before they drop a bomb on the US or England?
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No it wasn't. The bomb was dropped for several reasons, two of which being that they didn't want to waste the development money and they wanted to impress upon the Soviet Union that they had this power. Although it was apparently clear to America throughout 1944 that Japan was on it's knees or would be soon and despite Japan actively trying to surrender since January 1945 the bomb was dropped in August anyway. The beauty of the Internet and Freedom of Information acts and declassification is that the facts are now available for the public to see. If you check out the links that I left for DW, it's all there.

The following CSIS link explains it all quite clearly. http://csis.org/blog/understanding-decision-drop-bomb-hiroshima-and-nagasaki


Ending the war at the earliest possible moment - The primary objective for the U.S. was to win the war at the lowest possible cost. Specifically, Truman was looking for the most effective way to end the war quickly, not for a way to not use the bomb.

To justify the cost of the Manhattan Project - The Manhattan Project was a secret program to which the U.S. had funneled an estimated $1,889,604,000 (in 1945 dollars) through December 31, 1945.

To impress the Soviets - With the end of the war nearing, the Soviets were an important strategic consideration, especially with their military control over most of Eastern Europe. As Yale Professor Gaddis Smith has noted, “It has been demonstrated that the decision to bomb Japan was centrally connected to Truman's confrontational approach to the Soviet Union.” However, this idea is thought to be more appropriately understood as an ancillary benefit of dropping the bomb and not so much its sole purpose.

A lack of incentives not to use the bomb - Weapons were created to be used. By 1945, the bombing of civilians was already an established practice. In fact, the earlier U.S. firebombing campaign of Japan, which began in 1944,killed an estimated 315,922 Japanese, a greater number than the estimated deaths attributed to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The firebombing of Tokyo alone resulted in roughly 100,000 Japanese killed.

Responding to Pearl Harbor - When a general raised objections to the use of the bombs, Truman responded by noting the atrocities of Pearl Harbor and said that “When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him as a beast.”


(it should be noted that there are theories galore on the question of Pearl Harbour and whether or not America knew in advance that Japan was coming but I haven't looked into that so I can't say one way or the other and will leave that one alone.)
 
I think our economy is dependent on war and that still does not include anything close to full employment. Too many in congress and the country who think we ought to intervene at every opportunity. We will outrun our money supply some day.
 
I think we have already outrun much of our value in today's markets. In the last 8 years we have gone from about $7 trillion debt and possibility to pay down, as Clinton had tried to do and did, but after Reed and Pilosi took over in Bushes last two years they ran the unjustified debt up to $10 trillion and then our current government ran it on up to near $20 trillion. Way too much debt if the government ever intends to get back on a pay as you go basis. We have some very long years coming at the US with some hard years for the country coming soon.
 
I totally agree with Dame Warrigal and if we Australians can take the time to remember your Presidents over the last few decades it would have been rather nice to think that some Americans could at least have the decency to remember some of our Prime ministers particularly very good ones like Gough Whitlam and without googling I do not recall a President of America called Pat Quin so why should we know who that person is. I didn't realise this forum would be one with rather distasteful and insulting people on it. I shall have to reconsider my choice of a senior forum to be a member of.
 
remembering latest US pres.

hmm
Clinton --- womanizer and impeached by Congress
Bush --- gave us weapons of mass destruction (nobodies found any yet) and nucular instead of nuclear
Obama -- can't show birth certificate (no guns for him can't pass a backround check)
 
Jenna said:
I totally agree with Dame Warrigal and if we Australians can take the time to remember your Presidents over the last few decades it would have been rather nice to think that some Americans could at least have the decency to remember some of our Prime ministers particularly very good ones like Gough Whitlam and without googling I do not recall a President of America called Pat Quin so why should we know who that person is. I didn't realise this forum would be one with rather distasteful and insulting people on it. I shall have to reconsider my choice of a senior forum to be a member of.
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Isn't that a funny coincidence. I read something about your Prime Minister Whitlam just this morning in the following article, entitled 'The Forgotten Coup'. All I can say is, nothing changes and the ripples in the 'pond of knowledge' just keep on spreading! http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40040.htm
 
Dame Warrigal:

You live on one of the many, many territories and colonies captured by one of the worlds

most ruthless colonizers in the history of mankind.

America is not the "Colonial Power" that set out to dominate all in the world who were weaker.

That would be England.

I get so tired of people trying to blame everything on America !

Americans are Saints by comparison, however I never hear this toxic past (still active in the 20th century)
mentioned or acknowledged.

When there is a disaster and people need help.

America is there, helping

All over the world Americans are trying to make a difference in combatting hunger, AIDS and now ISIS

We are on the front line of Ebola helping people,
trying to make vaccinations,
trying to contain its spread

An earthquake ..? America
A tsunami,, America


America is not a perfect nation, no nation is, or ever has been
but we do basically try to make a difference and to be of help to people in need.

America does far more good, then not good in the world.

And puppet people who just drone on about the things that America does wrong
are terribly, terribly boring.
 
Elyzabeth, I'm fully aware of the nature of colonialism but England was far from the most ruthless colonising power.
All empires from the Egyptians, Assyrians, Romans, the Mongols, Spanish, Chinese and the British have defended their power ruthlessly and subjugated weaker nations.

However, this thread is about the burden of being the most powerful nation of the modern era and whether it is inevitable that a high cost is paid to maintain that position. Perhaps it is also costly to step back from leadership. That is America's dilemma and I suspect the cause of much angst for it's people.

America is not a perfect nation, no nation is, or ever has been
but we do basically try to make a difference and to be of help to people in need.

America does far more good, then not good in the world.

And puppet people who just drone on about the things that America does wrong
are terribly, terribly boring.
Click to expand...

In this life no individual and certainly no nation is ever perfect.
All are flawed yet all may seek to move closer to perfection.
That should always be the aim of humanity.

"Puppet people"? Ouch!
Who is the puppeteer?
Who pulls the strings?
 
I don't know if the US wants to extricate itself. Our infostructure is crumbling but it seems all we can talk about is the next conflict. I expect someday we will probably wind up like the Romans who out lasted their money supply. We've got a Congress that's about growing their wealth, getting re-elected, and little else. Old war hawks who know everything about everything to hear them talk, but do little. They don't have to ; they makethe rules.

Yes, some of us know about your Gough Whitlam. Labor loved him; he helped the little man a great deal in a similiar manner of FDR. Like FDR, some of your Liberals were not so impressed. Incidently, I found out something about him today, something the CIA said that i thought should have remained sealed. Perhaps you read it, too. Cheers.
 
There has long been talk that the CIA brought him down but I very much doubt it. Some of his ministers were real liabilities. One was conducting a very public affair with his political advisor and another was trying to raise money from the dodgiest of sources, a Pakistani who seemed to be a very shady character. Whitlam was too clever by half in offering a senator from an opposing party an ambassadorship to Ireland but the Queensland and NSW premiers refused to follow convention and Whitlam ended up worse off, especially after a senator from his own party died and was replaced by a stooge of his enemies.

Rupert Murdoch who had helped get him into office turned nasty when Whitlam wouldn't dance to Murdoch's tune and his newspapers ran continuous front pages that were extremely damaging (just like he does to this day). Also Whitlam was in a hurry and introduced his reforms too quickly. The electorate became very nervous. This allowed his political opponents to confect a constitutional crisis and the drunken sot of a Governor General, who had ideas above his station, decided to sack him.

In the end he rose like a rocket and fell to earth like a stone but in the meantime he changed Australian society for the better and most of it has endured.

However, he was definitely not popular with the CIA who at that time thought all unionists were communists and by extension were very suspicious of the first Labor government in a quarter of a century. He did visit Communist China before Kissinger and Nixon and had a habit of calling everyone 'Comrade'.
 
Elyzabeth said:
Dame Warrigal:

You live on one of the many, many territories and colonies captured by one of the worlds

most ruthless colonizers in the history of mankind..........America is not a perfect nation, no nation is, or ever has been
but we do basically try to make a difference and to be of help to people in need.

America does far more good, then not good in the world.

And puppet people who just drone on about the things that America does wrong
are terribly, terribly boring.
Click to expand...


I understand your discomfort with America being portrayed as I and some others have been doing here. But we are only a few of the many who are saying these things and those other 'many' are busy documenting everything that they say and which I feel compelled to pass on. Perhaps it is time that the American and Canadian and yes, the British and Australian public need to start listening to those other voices to hear what the real truth of the world situation is.

I'm going to give you a couple of websites although I'm pretty certain that you will make a point of not looking at them. So maybe who they will be useful for is people who are seriously concerned with why the world is in the state it is in both democratically, financially and militarily and are prepared to truly look instead of accepting the misinformation that our governments make available to mainstream media for propagandizing the people with.

Yes, America has done many good things but those good things are counterbalanced by the problems that that administration has caused throughout much of the world and the balance continues to tip toward the negative. Where England may have held the title as world colonizer once upon a time, that government, like my own has chosen to accede to the interventionist philosophy that has come out of Washington for the past couple of decades and has brought us to a point in history where once again, there are rumblings of another world war. The real 'puppet people' do what they are told and will not look beyond the strings that move them thus enabling the myth of exceptionality to continue to impact a globe that desperately needs peace.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/category/articles/

http://www.zerohedge.com
 
Dame Warrigal said:
There has long been talk that the CIA brought him down ......However, he was definitely not popular with the CIA who at that time thought all unionists were communists and by extension were very suspicious of the first Labor government in a quarter of a century. He did visit Communist China before Kissinger and Nixon and had a habit of calling everyone 'Comrade'.
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As I mentioned to someone else here, I just recently read an article that talks about the reasons and means that the CIA had and did to bring down Whitlam. And I believe the catalyst was Prime Minister Whitlam threatening to close down Pine Gap which was a spy base near Alice Springs that was being run by the CIA. Those other 'minor' issues that you mentioned may have been going on, but those weren't the reason he was sacked by Kerr apparently who was referred to by a CIA guy as 'their man'. The article also mentions that the CIA had infiltrated trade unions.

It's a fascinating read. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40040.htm
 
Elyzabeth said:
Dame Warrigal:

You live on one of the many, many territories and colonies captured by one of the worlds

most ruthless colonizers in the history of mankind.

America is not the "Colonial Power" that set out to dominate all in the world who were weaker.

That would be England.

I get so tired of people trying to blame everything on America !

Americans are Saints by comparison, however I never hear this toxic past (still active in the 20th century)
mentioned or acknowledged.

When there is a disaster and people need help.

America is there, helping

All over the world Americans are trying to make a difference in combatting hunger, AIDS and now ISIS

We are on the front line of Ebola helping people,
trying to make vaccinations,
trying to contain its spread

An earthquake ..? America
A tsunami,, America


America is not a perfect nation, no nation is, or ever has been
but we do basically try to make a difference and to be of help to people in need.

America does far more good, then not good in the world.

And puppet people who just drone on about the things that America does wrong
are terribly, terribly boring.
Click to expand...

Well said!
 
I read things BOTH for and against America, I read everything!

I left the country because Bush was re elected !


Dame Warrigal who pulls the Puppet's strings?

I would say people who are trying to be PC and accepted as going with the flow..

and stating things about America to demonize it and try to pull it down

Mob thinking has it's own rewards, and responds to the pulled strings of popularity within the mob.
 
In America criticizing is expected, and called for as part of our Democratic government.


In England and the UK, criticizing the government is called " bashing"

ALWAYS !


I am a citizen of both countries and I have heartily criticized America in the past.

I also vote in both countries and I know whereof I speak !
 
Elyzabeth said:
Dame Warrigal:

You live on one of the many, many territories and colonies captured by one of the worlds

most ruthless colonizers in the history of mankind.

America is not the "Colonial Power" that set out to dominate all in the world who were weaker.

That would be England.

I get so tired of people trying to blame everything on America !

Americans are Saints by comparison, however I never hear this toxic past (still active in the 20th century)
mentioned or acknowledged.

When there is a disaster and people need help.

America is there, helping

All over the world Americans are trying to make a difference in combatting hunger, AIDS and now ISIS

We are on the front line of Ebola helping people,
trying to make vaccinations,
trying to contain its spread

An earthquake ..? America
A tsunami,, America


America is not a perfect nation, no nation is, or ever has been
but we do basically try to make a difference and to be of help to people in need.

America does far more good, then not good in the world.

And puppet people who just drone on about the things that America does wrong
are terribly, terribly boring.
Click to expand...


Well said!!
 
Drifter, that article you have linked to is by John Pilger, who is far from clear eyed impartiality. He sees the dead hand of the CIA and America behind everything. Just as I avoid far right commentary I also tend to dismiss Pilger's far left conspiracy view of history. When choosing between conspiracy and stuff up, I go for stuff up 99% of the time.
 
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