Any musicians on the forum?

There is another piano player, not jazz, but instead exquisite cocktail style, Jim Haskins. He worked in the financial world as a high level stock trader or adviser and he lived in Hawaii. Every year for about 20 years, he would put out a CD, for a total of 20 CDs before he died. I used to call him and order directly from him. He was a joy to talk to. His attitude about cocktail piano is that the pianist's job is to provide ambience for the room while at the same time playing tunes that people easily recognized and could hear the melody to, all the way through the tune.

His CDs are quiet, classy, and listening to them is like being wrapped up in a warm blanket while a storm is raging outside. I ripped them all and have them on my smart phone.

Most of the CDs are mostly collections of the Great American Songbook, a CD of show tunes, a CD of Christmas tunes, a CD of ballads from the 1970s, and a CD of the tunes from WWII.

That is the way I am heading on the piano and am exploring doing so on the guitar. Chord melody is often rather stiff, smoothed only by the sustain of a decent archtop pickup. Earl Klugh has certainly mastered keeping it interesting on a classical guitar. I am looking to do something less complex, more along the lines of Jim Haskins. Unfortunately, his CDs only show up occasionally used on Ebay or similar sites because they were released through a small private company and are no longer commercially available so you folks probably won't be able to hear him.

Most CDs of cocktail piano are, in my opinion, far too showy where Jim Haskins was very relaxed and just right. Anyway, I want to carry that sensibility over to guitar.

Tony
 

"Out of curiosity, any reason you aren't happy with this method?" I'm assuming you are asking me about not caring for digital production. If so, I feel that working at a digital station so much took my musicality away. And truth be told, to this day, I still think the songs sound better coming off my instrument. A friend of mine who has been producing music digitally for herself and other artists just told me the other day that MP3s don't render the best sound. My son who studied audio engineering at an institute that had Art Garfinkle as a client (forgot the name of it) agrees. See...this is "his" speak "but even IT works with 32-bit audio, with up to 192KHz bandwidth which is spatially (and physically) huge compared to the MP3s it can produce.". I play the music, I hear the music. Either I'm satisfied with it or I'm not. My son, who's also a deejay (who swears by vinyl but uses modern methods) engineers and masters my music for me. He's excellent at his craft. And he loves the digital stuff.
MP3s don't render the best sound because they are compressed. No matter what anybody says, there is no such thing as lossless compression when it comes to audio. It is certainly a high standard to aim for, but something has to be removed to create such relatively small files.

Fortunately for me, my aging ears are fine with MP3s. My days of high end stereo are long past and a balance convenience and acceptable sound suits me just fine.

For me, there is something definitely "unmusical" about creating music with a computer. I say "for me" because I don't want to make a blanket statement that would have to include those for whom the computer IS the musical instrument. I suspect there are such people, particularly those young enough to not have known a world without all this technology in the average person's hands.

A discussion about WAV files, sampling bandwidth and frequency, would get really involved and require too much typing, so I will say that there ARE people who can hear these differences and certainly the difference between analog vinyl and digital. I worked as an engineering tech in a hearing company after leaving the band, and had the opportunity to take advantage of having access to a phenomenal lab to learn a lot about how we hear and, more importantly, how we perceive what we hear (i.e. psychoacoustics). It is common for those who can't hear these differences to argue that they don't exist. That is the fodder of much argument in audio circles, but suffice it to say these differences are real and demonstrable.

Tony
 
Here's the SoundCloud link for two of my unreleased songs, copyrighted a couple of decades ago. Just A Little Timpani, which is Jazzy with a dash of Hip Hop, was done without using the rhythm section, so I'm playing all the instruments and hand claps as well as doing the "scratching". The one sound the Clavinova doesn't do well is tenor sax, so I've asked a sax player friend of mine if he will play on this track for me after he finishes his project. I intend to lengthen the song. This version was not engineered. I used the rhythm section on Martha's Back! I am playing the piano, horns, strings and digital choir parts. The song has a Baptist Church Gospel feel.
@Pecos @Keesha @Shalimar @MarciKS @Gaer
 

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"Out of curiosity, any reason you aren't happy with this method?" I'm assuming you are asking me about not caring for digital production. If so, I feel that working at a digital station so much took my musicality away. And truth be told, to this day, I still think the songs sound better coming off my instrument. A friend of mine who has been producing music digitally for herself and other artists just told me the other day that MP3s don't render the best sound. My son who studied audio engineering at an institute that had Art Garfinkle as a client (forgot the name of it) agrees. See...this is "his" speak "but even IT works with 32-bit audio, with up to 192KHz bandwidth which is spatially (and physically) huge compared to the MP3s it can produce.". I play the music, I hear the music. Either I'm satisfied with it or I'm not. My son, who's also a deejay (who swears by vinyl but uses modern methods) engineers and masters my music for me. He's excellent at his craft. And he loves the digital stuff.
To be honest, I don't think most musicians should become recording engineers. It's one thing, for example, to sit down and play the ivories and have your ears bathed in wonderful harmonics. It's another thing entirely to assemble all the parts of a piano to make it playable. One path is pure joy, and the other is hard work (which can lead to the death of joy)!! Kudos to your path; you are already well beyond what most people will ever accomplish, and you should be proud that you have attained a level of producing work you like. That to me, is absolutely huge. (y)
 
MP3s don't render the best sound because they are compressed. No matter what anybody says, there is no such thing as lossless compression when it comes to audio. It is certainly a high standard to aim for, but something has to be removed to create such relatively small files.

Fortunately for me, my aging ears are fine with MP3s. My days of high end stereo are long past and a balance convenience and acceptable sound suits me just fine.

For me, there is something definitely "unmusical" about creating music with a computer. I say "for me" because I don't want to make a blanket statement that would have to include those for whom the computer IS the musical instrument. I suspect there are such people, particularly those young enough to not have known a world without all this technology in the average person's hands.

A discussion about WAV files, sampling bandwidth and frequency, would get really involved and require too much typing, so I will say that there ARE people who can hear these differences and certainly the difference between analog vinyl and digital. I worked as an engineering tech in a hearing company after leaving the band, and had the opportunity to take advantage of having access to a phenomenal lab to learn a lot about how we hear and, more importantly, how we perceive what we hear (i.e. psychoacoustics). It is common for those who can't hear these differences to argue that they don't exist. That is the fodder of much argument in audio circles, but suffice it to say these differences are real and demonstrable.

Tony
My ears are fine with MP3s too. My husband used to be amazed at what my son and I could detect when he could not. But we both have very discerning ears. My son can definitely detect the differences in the different types of audio files. Like you, I don't knock anyone who works digitally whatever their reason. It's just not my favorite thing. A very good friend has worked mostly digitally for years and as mentioned in another reply, she does tracks for herself and others. One thing digital allows which is great, is musicians being able to "play together" even though they are not together. She just sent me a couple of songs that were produced that way and they sound great.

I noticed when I went to upload my songs ( which are in the above reply) to SoundCloud, they requested WAV and other types of files other than MP3s.

@retiredtraveler I meant to say that my son is now transferring tracks individually from my instrument into his Logic program, which he is loving. I admit songs can be edited more efficiently using the program. And no file corruptions will occur like they did with one of my songs after I transferred it using the floppy disk reader.
 
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Leo Kottke once told me that we should try to continue tuning our guitars by ear because otherwise, our ears can get lazy. Obviously in noisy situations such as a gig, an electronic tuner is a definite asset.

At home, I use an A 440hz pitch fork and do the Johnny Smith of tuning all the strings to A (6th string/5th fret, 5th string/open/12th fret, 4th string/7th fret, 3rd string/10th fret, 1st string/5th fret).

A church band I played in for a while back when my wife wanted me to go to church with her, had two acoustic guitar players, me and another guy. There was a piano that was always out of tune because they didn't have the funds to keep it tuned more than once a year. I tuned my guitar by ear to the piano such that it worked with the piano, while the other guy always had to use a tuner. I remember it was a Korg electronic tuner with a big meter, and the needle pointed straight up when the string was in tune. He was truly unable to tune by ear so he couldn't tune to the piano. I had to start showing up early and tune up both guitars ahead of time.

So there is truth to what Kottke said. Oddly, I posted this in a thread in a guitar forum and was taken to task about using my ears when tuning! To me, music is a HEARING art first and foremost and I fail to understand why more people don't consider ear training to be of utmost importance. But, then, I guess I am just "old school".

Edit: For those who don't know who he is, here is a video of Leo Kottke in concert:


Tony
The other reason tuning by ear is better, (and I will willingly die on that hill), is that what does someone do when they get their guitar in open tune (lol), but can't tell that the notes don't accurately track (chromatically) up the neck? I have had all my guitars setup, but in travel, humidity, heat, etc changed them slightly, so I learned how to do setups myself, and tune my bridges on all my guitars, even re-tensioning the neck if and when my straight edge shows deviation. Yeah, I'm kinda anal here, but one thing that really drives me slightly insane is to hit a note at fret 16, and find it to be slightly sharp or flat relative to open. Here's where it pays to play electronic keyboards!
 
The other reason tuning by ear is better, (and I will willingly die on that hill), is that what does someone do when they get their guitar in open tune (lol), but can't tell that the notes don't accurately track (chromatically) up the neck? I have had all my guitars setup, but in travel, humidity, heat, etc changed them slightly, so I learned how to do setups myself, and tune my bridges on all my guitars, even re-tensioning the neck if and when my straight edge shows deviation. Yeah, I'm kinda anal here, but one thing that really drives me slightly insane is to hit a note at fret 16, and find it to be slightly sharp or flat relative to open. Here's where it pays to play electronic keyboards!
I personally prefer "real" instruments, but do have a digital piano because I live in a condo and don't wish to disturb the neighbors.

Though I have dabbled with open tunings, I seem to always come back to standard tuning. I know where all the notes are in standard tuning instantly, can build any chord anywhere on the fretboard because I also know how to spell chords, and that means I don't have to always rely on standard grips.

For me, open tunings are fun to just play around with and hear what I can come up with, with no thought for building chords or scales - just sounds.

Players such as Pierre Bensusan will pick one tuning and learn it the way I did with standard tuning. Other players will just twiddle the tuners and listen for some tuning that seems worth exploring. It is all good and a lot of creative music is made with open tunings.

Tony
 
Here's the SoundCloud link for two of my unreleased songs, copyrighted a couple of decades ago. Just A Little Timpani, which is Jazzy with a dash of Hip Hop, was done without using the rhythm section, so I'm playing all the instruments, the hand claps as well as doing the "scratching". The one sound the Clavinova didn't do well is tenor sax, so I've asked a sax player friend of mine if he will play on this track for me after he finishes his project. I intend to extend it. This version was not engineered. I used the rhythm section on Martha's Back! I am playing the piano, horns, strings and digital choir parts. The song has a Baptist Church Gospel feel.
@Pecos
This is some really good music! Thanks for sharing.

Tony
 
I personally prefer "real" instruments, but do have a digital piano because I live in a condo and don't wish to disturb the neighbors.

Though I have dabbled with open tunings, I seem to always come back to standard tuning. I know where all the notes are in standard tuning instantly, can build any chord anywhere on the fretboard because I also know how to spell chords, and that means I don't have to always rely on standard grips.

For me, open tunings are fun to just play around with and hear what I can come up with, with no thought for building chords or scales - just sounds.

Players such as Pierre Bensusan will pick one tuning and learn it the way I did with standard tuning. Other players will just twiddle the tuners and listen for some tuning that seems worth exploring. It is all good and a lot of creative music is made with open tunings.

Tony
Oops, sorry. I also like std tuning. By open, I meant using a tuner with the guitar string un-depressed such as an E,A,D,G,B,E at open position, and not at octaves or an 'A' resonating on, say, string 6, fret 5. The tuner will tell you the truth at open, but won't guarantee tuning once the string is depressed in a higher position.
 
Oops, sorry. I also like std tuning. By open, I meant using a tuner with the guitar string un-depressed such as an E,A,D,G,B,E at open position, and not at octaves or an 'A' resonating on, say, string 6, fret 5.
It (to me) goes unsaid that there is always a bit of fine tuning once we get through whatever we do initially to get the guitar in tune. To me, the strings sound better overall when they are ever so slightly detuned from each other. That is something that, as far as I know, can only be done by ear. It is a kind of "sweetening" process that one has to hear rather than see on a meter.

Tony
 
It (to me) goes unsaid that there is always a bit of fine tuning once we get through whatever we do initially to get the guitar in tune. To me, the strings sound better overall when they are ever so slightly detuned from each other. That is something that, as far as I know, can only be done by ear. It is a kind of "sweetening" process that one has to hear rather than see on a meter.

Tony
Yep. 😁 I read somewhere, that when the original recording engineer was working with ABBA, he had created a unique sound by duplicating vocal tracks, slightly detuning them, and adding them back into the mix for mastering. The result was the 'ABBA' sound. Recording engineers can really create some magic when they know what they are doing.
 
Yep. 😁 I read somewhere, that when the original recording engineer was working with ABBA, he had created a unique sound by duplicating vocal tracks, slightly detuning them, and adding them back into the mix for mastering. The result was the 'ABBA' sound. Recording engineers can really create some magic when they know what they are doing.
True enough! When you rent a studio with an engineer to make a recording, really you are mostly paying for the skills of the engineer to make the recording work. That is the singular issue with recording myself at home for anything more than part of the practice process. I really don't have the time or inclination to learn the art of recording. That would be akin to learning another instrument.

Tony
 
WARNING , story contains impure actions. :)

NewRetire18 mentioned Larry Carlton. He was a big influence in my "teen" years. Thus the story :

I was at an outdoor concert sitting by myself when a gorgeous blonde diva came up to me and asked if she could sit down ( I grew up in the "Silicon Valley" in CA ). I was half in shock...but we got on real well, and then said our goodbyes. About three years later we played a gig and during the break SHE walked up to me, again we had some chemistry ( I wanted to believe ), so she gave me her phone number. One day I was day dreaming of her, so I called and asked her out. She told me she didn't think her boyfriend would like that. She said he played guitar too and told me who he was playing with. I was disappointed and I knew the band she was talking about, and where the Harp player lived. Her boyfriend was living there too she said. Sooooooo, I marched right over there with my old 335 Gibson and was gonna have a duel with this guy just so I could feel "superior" in some way. ( I hate the ego games in the business, it is basically why I quit it ). I was thinking with another part of my body...it wasn't the brain. We sat down and he invited me to play some. I showed off and then he picked up his guitar and literally blew my mind. I didn't know what he was doing but he played better than anyone local I had heard...his name...Robin Ford!!!! Man was that a real wake up moment for me. That year he Joined "The LA Express" and he hasn't stopped yet. :) Here is Robin playing with Larry.

 
True enough! When you rent a studio with an engineer to make a recording, really you are mostly paying for the skills of the engineer to make the recording work. That is the singular issue with recording myself at home for anything more than part of the practice process. I really don't have the time or inclination to learn the art of recording. That would be akin to learning another instrument.

Tony
Yeah. I’m so behind on computer technology that it would be easier for me to learn a brand new instrument than learn some of the software made for recording. I did however make several recordings and almost shared them but then chickened out. 😏 lol
 
Yeah. I’m so behind on computer technology that it would be easier for me to learn a brand new instrument than learn some of the software made for recording. I did however make several recordings and almost shared them but then chickened out. 😏 lol
Well, though there is certainly a learning curve to the software, I was mostly referring to the skills it takes to know what microphones to stock in your mic closet, and then know each of them so well that you know when and where to place them for best effect. Then, there is setting up the room to "tune it" so you don't have frequency aberrations that can ruin a recording. After you have mastered all of that, which is much more than I touched on here such as gain staging at all points along the signal chain just to name one, you have to master the recording, mixing, and mastering processes. There is a HUGE difference between a professionally recorded tune and one done by somebody such as myself.

Tony
 
Well, though there is certainly a learning curve to the software, I was mostly referring to the skills it takes to know what microphones to stock in your mic closet, and then know each of them so well that you know when and where to place them for best effect. Then, there is setting up the room to "tune it" so you don't have frequency aberrations that can ruin a recording. After you have mastered all of that, which is much more than I touched on here such as gain staging at all points along the signal chain just to name one, you have to master the recording, mixing, and mastering processes. There is a HUGE difference between a professionally recorded tune and one done by somebody such as myself.

Tony
Ok! 🥺
 
WARNING , story contains impure actions. :)

NewRetire18 mentioned Larry Carlton. He was a big influence in my "teen" years. Thus the story :

I was at an outdoor concert sitting by myself when a gorgeous blonde diva came up to me and asked if she could sit down ( I grew up in the "Silicon Valley" in CA ). I was half in shock...but we got on real well, and then said our goodbyes. About three years later we played a gig and during the break SHE walked up to me, again we had some chemistry ( I wanted to believe ), so she gave me her phone number. One day I was day dreaming of her, so I called and asked her out. She told me she didn't think her boyfriend would like that. She said he played guitar too and told me who he was playing with. I was disappointed and I knew the band she was talking about, and where the Harp player lived. Her boyfriend was living there too she said. Sooooooo, I marched right over there with my old 335 Gibson and was gonna have a duel with this guy just so I could feel "superior" in some way. ( I hate the ego games in the business, it is basically why I quit it ). I was thinking with another part of my body...it wasn't the brain. We sat down and he invited me to play some. I showed off and then he picked up his guitar and literally blew my mind. I didn't know what he was doing but he played better than anyone local I had heard...his name...Robin Ford!!!! Man was that a real wake up moment for me. That year he Joined "The LA Express" and he hasn't stopped yet. :) Here is Robin playing with Larry.

Never heard of these guys [runs for cover]... :ROFLMAO:

Impressive tale to be sure. I went to a week long fingerstyle in the early 80s when I was really into Kottke's music. I had learned a bunch of his material off recordings. We stayed in the dorm at the U of Wisconsin in Milwaukee. I played one of his tunes and just then he walked in. He said it wasn't quite how he would play it, but he liked it. :cool:

The players there teaching and giving concerts that year were Michael Hedges, Alex De Grassi, Leo Kottke, Ben Verdery, Pierre Bensusan, and Peter Lang. There were a few others that I don't recall at the moment, but that gives you an idea of what this event was. It was great sitting toe to toe with these guys talking and playing guitar. A few weeks later I ran into John Fahey, and that was an interesting encounter.

Tony
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to dismiss anything you said. It is quite a skill to really learn any of that DAW software. I just wanted to add that all the recording skills aside from the software have a HUGE learning curve. Most decent engineers go to school for a couple of years to learn these skills the same way that the rest of us go to college or vo-tech to learn what we need to do our respective jobs.

It is all a rather tough road to hoe if you want really decent results. I decided not to go that route once I got a sense of what is involved. I have done some studio work as a sit-in guitar player, but all I had to do was play when told to.

So all that I have said on the subject is agreeing with, and supporting what you said, rather than disagreeing in any way at all. Making recordings to share with your friends is a completely different thing and I am sure you can get decent enough results for that without having to learn all that I mentioned. I was talking about putting high quality recordings out on one of those streaming sites. These are two very different goals.

Tony
 
I have play guitar for 55 years.

I've been playing since 1976. Started first with the 5-string banjo, guitar a bit later (was into bluegrass). Shoulda done the guitar first. I've monkeyed with the mandolin, fiddle, and keyboard over the years.

I still play the flat top nearly every night. All of my local bluegrass gang disappeared 25-30 years ago from divorces, deaths, and people moving out of the area.

There's nobody around here that plays anymore that I'm aware of. My guitar hero has always been Chet Atkins, and I'm constantly trying to improve my technique -- albeit alone.

Here's one of the nicest ones Chet ever did:

 
Leo Kottke once told me that we should try to continue tuning our guitars by ear because otherwise, our ears can get lazy. Obviously in noisy situations such as a gig, an electronic tuner is a definite asset.

At home, I use an A 440hz pitch fork and do the Johnny Smith of tuning all the strings to A (6th string/5th fret, 5th string/open/12th fret, 4th string/7th fret, 3rd string/10th fret, 1st string/5th fret).

A church band I played in for a while back when my wife wanted me to go to church with her, had two acoustic guitar players, me and another guy. There was a piano that was always out of tune because they didn't have the funds to keep it tuned more than once a year. I tuned my guitar by ear to the piano such that it worked with the piano, while the other guy always had to use a tuner. I remember it was a Korg electronic tuner with a big meter, and the needle pointed straight up when the string was in tune. He was truly unable to tune by ear so he couldn't tune to the piano. I had to start showing up early and tune up both guitars ahead of time.

So there is truth to what Kottke said. Oddly, I posted this in a thread in a guitar forum and was taken to task about using my ears when tuning! To me, music is a HEARING art first and foremost and I fail to understand why more people don't consider ear training to be of utmost importance. But, then, I guess I am just "old school".

Edit: For those who don't know who he is, here is a video of Leo Kottke in concert:


Tony
I saw Leo Kottke maybe ten years ago. He's a great guitarist. All his songs kind of sound the same, though.
 
WARNING , story contains impure actions. :)

NewRetire18 mentioned Larry Carlton. He was a big influence in my "teen" years. Thus the story :

I was at an outdoor concert sitting by myself when a gorgeous blonde diva came up to me and asked if she could sit down ( I grew up in the "Silicon Valley" in CA ). I was half in shock...but we got on real well, and then said our goodbyes. About three years later we played a gig and during the break SHE walked up to me, again we had some chemistry ( I wanted to believe ), so she gave me her phone number. One day I was day dreaming of her, so I called and asked her out. She told me she didn't think her boyfriend would like that. She said he played guitar too and told me who he was playing with. I was disappointed and I knew the band she was talking about, and where the Harp player lived. Her boyfriend was living there too she said. Sooooooo, I marched right over there with my old 335 Gibson and was gonna have a duel with this guy just so I could feel "superior" in some way. ( I hate the ego games in the business, it is basically why I quit it ). I was thinking with another part of my body...it wasn't the brain. We sat down and he invited me to play some. I showed off and then he picked up his guitar and literally blew my mind. I didn't know what he was doing but he played better than anyone local I had heard...his name...Robin Ford!!!! Man was that a real wake up moment for me. That year he Joined "The LA Express" and he hasn't stopped yet. :) Here is Robin playing with Larry.

Robin Ford, in recent years, has adapted SRV's style to some extent. In his early years, he said he tried to play like Mike Bloomfield. But even when he adapts other people's styles, he still makes it his own. Great guitar player!

I got to see him a while back, I think it was at the Fillmore here in Denver.
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to dismiss anything you said. It is quite a skill to really learn any of that DAW software. I just wanted to add that all the recording skills aside from the software have a HUGE learning curve. Most decent engineers go to school for a couple of years to learn these skills the same way that the rest of us go to college or vo-tech to learn what we need to do our respective jobs.

It is all a rather tough road to hoe if you want really decent results. I decided not to go that route once I got a sense of what is involved. I have done some studio work as a sit-in guitar player, but all I had to do was play when told to.

So all that I have said on the subject is agreeing with, and supporting what you said, rather than disagreeing in any way at all. Making recordings to share with your friends is a completely different thing and I am sure you can get decent enough results for that without having to learn all that I mentioned. I was talking about putting high quality recordings out on one of those streaming sites. These are two very different goals.

Tony
Lol.. I didn’t feel the least bit dismissed.
Most of what you said went over my head as does most of the conversation in this thread and I came to the realization that there are those who can compose an entire song without even knowing how to play an instrument.

It really is a skill to learn all that DAW software. So much so that I was spending more time frustrating myself with trying to learn that than practising my instruments.

It’s the same with photography or any type of artwork. With modern technology, artistic talent seems to not even be needed these days as anything can be created

The subject of music seems to get lost in all the computer jibberish.
 

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