Religion: The views of an agnostic

Dancing_Queen said:
Having studied cultural anthropology and a goodly number of those tribes while they still existed as independent groups, I can tell you that they all had moral codes. We may not have agreed with some of their precepts, but they all had them.
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Thank you for joining in!

Have those tribes had a religion or a deity they believed in? If, yes how dependent was their moral code on their religion?
 

Alligatorob said:
That and the lack of evidence that there is not a God (or Gods) is what makes me feel mostly agnostic.
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And there never will be as you can't prove a negative. :) We all have to have faith in something; most of us have faith in many things. One of mine is that there is no god. I know, though, that the onus of proof is on those who believe there is one since, as I said, you can't prove a negative. I've read plenty of philosophical "proofs" on both sides; as far as I'm concerned, they're all bolderdash.
 
Dancing_Queen said:
If you can prove to me god exists, I'll change my belief. And I know it's a belief, not a fact.
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If one can prove to you that god exists doesn't that make it automatically a fact? Furthermore if one can prove to you that god exists wouldn't it make sense for one to be able to prove the same to everybody?
 

Buckeye said:
Sorry, but no. There is no life without God's presence. Your belief in God or your "logic" is not a requirement for his presence.
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You're stating this as a fact rather than as an opinion, Buckeye. Facts have a basis in something that has no alternative explanation; opinions don't necessarily have to. Does you statement have a basis in anything that has no alternative explanation? If not, it's an opinion.

I believe there isn't a god. I know there alternative explanations for our existence; therefore, no matter what my belief, I have no problem admitting that this is an opinion.
 
Aunt Bea said:
What difference does it make?

What is the harm in accepting another person’s religious beliefs.

IMO religion is based on faith not proof.

If you can’t believe in God at least believe in The First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Wahoooooo!
 
Lara said:
I did read your thread @CAKCy I don't agree of course but it's a good thread. I enjoyed reading it.

@raybar , Here are some examples of evidence you asked for. There is good and evil all around us. Look for the good, for the amazing, for the incredible, for the beautiful, for the magnificent, for the love, for the joy, for the kindness, and you will see God's handiwork. That's evidence and so much more...

You're in California...stare at the ocean, see all the shades of blue and emerald green, see the beauty of the sunrise and sunset, the dolphins jumping playfully out of the water and communicating, the horizon, the stars. Feel the mighty power of the waves, sand under your feet, the ocean breeze, smell the salt air, bend down to touch a starfish and remember the the entire living ecosystem beneath the surface of the water. Take a deep breath and feel good about being alive. Who gave you the nose and lungs to be able to do that? hmm, who is this intelligent designer? A big chaotic bang? A mud puddle? Where did all the energy come from?
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I can see alternative explanations for all of this.
 
CAKCy said:
That means that I changed my original categorization to include a group of people like yourself who had first-hand personal experiences in their relation with God and are convinced that God exists because of them and not because of "hearsay" i.e. by listening to others or by reading the scripture. I'm glad you think it's good! :)
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Or with something neurological. All of these things can be explained neurologically. Which happened in this particular case? I don't know.
 
Capt Lightning said:
It's all too easy to see the world through 'Rose tinted glasses' and associate this with a god who created it. It however ignores the bad things in the world.. I'm not talking about man made problems, but what about disease, what about children born with deformities or incurable illness ?
If this 'god' created the good things, then surely he/she/it must be equally responsible for the bad.

Come to think about it, why did this 'god' even bother creating a universe 13+ billion years ago. Why did things go through millions of years of evolution. Why were the dinosaurs killed off? How many versions of hominoids were created before homo sapiens evolved?

I don't know why the universe came into existence. If I believed it was a 'god' who created it, then I would have to assume that he/she/it was on a massive ego trip that went sadly awry. I would also ask, who created this god? Are people going to say that this god always existed? That would be so convenient, wouldn't it.

Oh poo! I just want to enjoy my life, and when I die, that's it - the end.
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And this is the hypocrisy (as I see it) of the "clockmaker" belief. Why just stop with god?
 
Lara said:
I believe we already know when the beginning of time was...when the sun and the moon were created, giving us day and night...thus "time".
That was for our benefit, to have light by day and moon light by night for navigation. And no, that knowledge is not going to make believers cease in believing in God.
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Are you saying that everything from the big bang until the Earth was created occurred before the beginning of time? For one thing, life on Earth is possible only because of the elements found here, almost all of which were created by the explosions of stars; did this occur before time began?
 
Lara said:
"All the gaps" will never be eliminated because that would eliminate "faith". God wants to be loved through our faith in Him.
You ask "will we ever find the ultimate source of existence? I believe we have...God's creation. Did you mean, who created God? I believe he wasn't created. He just is and always will be existing. We can't understand for now because our brains aren't able.
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Good for you, Lara! You understand the difference between belief and fact, something that, unfortunately, others in this thread don't. I'm an atheist. I also know this is my belief. Since it's a belief, I'd never tell someone who believes as you do that you're wrong.
 
Lara said:
Good post #96 raybar but it's my belief that Scripture may be misinterpreted, but it will never be wrong. When fallible science does not correspond with fallible theology, I don't blame the Bible. The scientific assumptions may be wrong, or the biblical interpretations may be wrong, or both, but the Scriptures never are in my belief. An unfortunate tendency in atheism is to compare science to a single interpretation of the Bible, then declare science has “proved” the Bible incorrect. This, in my opinion, is illogical. At the most, all that might be disproved is that particular interpretation of Scripture.

I have faith that God’s written Word is the final authority in all matters that it addresses. Yet it's not always specific on all points. The exact age of the earth and the minute details of how God created it are among those issues left vague in Scripture.

There are reasons to doubt prevailing views of the fossil record. The fields of paleontology and fossils are highly prone to error. In the last century, we have witnessed countless examples of “groundbreaking” discoveries that have ultimately been proved misleading.
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I'm not commenting on your post, Lara, just making a statement.

Most of what we read about scientific "discoveries" wasn't written by scientists; it was written by media people who are trying to get us to read/buy/whatever. They have to make a splash and do so by coming up with stuff that scientists would never say. Science works by finding something, publishing it, commenting on it, and then watching as others try to debunk whatever was suggested. Often these suggestions are just thoughts about possibilities. But the media jump. That's probably the main reason that people get the wrong impression of what science has actually found and believe that it's all over the place.
 
CAKCy said:
Have those tribes had a religion or a deity they believed in? If, yes how dependent was their moral code on their religion?
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I don't think religion has not always been tied to morals in the sense that the Abrahamic religions are. I am sure there is a lot of variability but moral codes and religion does not necessarily go hand in hand.

Its my understanding (not a expert here) that the ancient Romans and Greeks believed their Gods only expected devotion, proper sacrifice and the like. Do that and your life would be better, it would rain or you would be victorious in battle or whatever. Their Gods cared less about how you behaved otherwise.
 
Alligatorob said:
I don't think religion has not always been tied to morals in the sense that the Abrahamic religions are. I am sure there is a lot of variability but moral codes and religion does not necessarily go hand in hand.

Its my understanding (not a expert here) that the ancient Romans and Greeks believed their Gods only expected devotion, proper sacrifice and the like. Do that and your life would be better, it would rain or you would be victorious in battle or whatever. Their Gods cared less about how you behaved otherwise.
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@Dancing_Queen is a cultural anthropologist. It was my chance to get some information from a scientist re the tribes. :)
 
Warrigal said:
Where is the proof that love exists?
Dawkins posits that love is merely the action of the "selfish gene", however he never actually identified the location of that particular gene on any particular chromosome.

Some things that are neither matter nor energy do exist - I assert that love does indeed exist.

Who is going to dismiss the idea of love ?
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This isn't what he meant by "selfish gene:"

"MR. DAWKINS: The phrase "the selfish gene" only means that genes are selfish. It doesn't mean that individual organisms are. On the contrary, one of the main messages of the selfish gene is that selfish genes can program altruistic behavior in organisms. Organisms can behave altruistically towards other organisms -- the better to forward the propagation of their own selfish genes. What you cannot have is a gene that sacrifices itself for the benefit of other genes. What you can have is a gene that makes organisms sacrifice themselves for other organisms under the influence of selfish genes."

https://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/transcript/dawk-frame.html

He never said that there's a particular "selfish gene."
 
Warrigal said:
And you know this how? Personal experience? IMO this is an old, tired chestnut.
If coping with the unknown is so troublesome to humanity, how do atheists and agnostics cope?
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Not a problem at all. Here's some research on the subject. I post it solely for the purpose of explaining some of ways:

How atheists cope

But how do these worldviews help in times of crisis? Most frequently, the respondents said they helped cope with the situation, reduced anxiety, created an increased feeling of control and sense of order, and explained or gave meaning to the situation.

Many participants indicated that understanding a difficult situation proved paramount to accepting it and coping with it. One said that “understanding the process of loss and moving on via understanding psychology helps”. Others stated that “my belief in science explained what was happening and I also trusted in modern medicine that we could overcome it”, or that it helped to consider that “depression [is] a condition that responds to time and care”.

What this research suggests is that worldviews and beliefs, whether religious or secular, can provide comfort and meaning in even the very toughest situations.


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/how-atheists-cope-times-crisis-156506
 
Dancing_Queen said:
Having studied cultural anthropology and a goodly number of those tribes while they still existed as independent groups, I can tell you that they all had moral codes. We may not have agreed with some of their precepts, but they all had them.
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Yes, there's a lot of evidence (imo) showing that morality was a part of life before organized religions were.
 
CAKCy said:
With all due respect, the idea that morals are based on religion is wrong. There have been times when religion was not a part of the game (for instance when Sun was considered to be a deity) yet morals existed as a common understanding and agreement of what a society needed. (That's why morals are so volatile. Because times change, society changes and along with it, its morals)
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I agree on this point. Just take a look at how people behaved when COVID was just ramping up. Folks who saw themselves as good, fair minded, and generous, suddenly began hogging resources, such as toilet paper and hand sanitizer. Once those things became available again, it was easy to go back to their former behavior.
 
carouselsilver said:
I agree on this point. Just take a look at how people behaved when COVID was just ramping up. Folks who saw themselves as good, fair minded, and generous, suddenly began hogging resources, such as toilet paper and hand sanitizer. Once those things became available again, it was easy to go back to their former behavior.
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The volatility of human behavior (and on a larger scale of morals) is well documented. In times of crisis people may reach the point of becoming inhuman (believers or not).
 
CAKCy said:
@Warrigal



It also applies to open systems with the understanding that energy can be exchanged between the system and its surroundings. The net amount of energy remains the same (considering the change of energy into matter).



We don't have to. The amount of energy even if it's transformed into matter with the absorption by the black holes still remains the same.



Unknown. Though hypotheses are there.



The Big Bang hypothesis says that there was a big explosion of energy of unknown source that created the universe and started its expansion.





Agreed. The laws and constants of physics part of which is still unknown to us. The term "Blueprints of this universe" implies that the design was already in place. This is your opinion.
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CAKCy said:
I've studied Civil Engineering and Computer Science.

For reference:
The Universe and Beyond (utah.edu)
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There is nothing random about the Big Bang. If anything existed before that it was the laws and constants of physics. These are the blueprints of this universe. If even one of the constants happened to be just a little bit different, the universe would not be what it is today.
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Agreed. The laws and constants of physics part of which is still unknown to us. The term "Blueprints of this universe" implies that the design was already in place. This is your opinion.

We also don't know what the laws of physics are in any other previous or current universe. It's highly possible that other universes existed before the Big Bang and that other universes exist concurrently with ours. The laws in those universes may be just right for the type of "life" that came into existence in them. In other words, we exist as we do because of the laws in this universe; if the laws weren't "just right," we might be existing differently.
 
CAKCy said:
Thank you for joining in!

Have those tribes had a religion or a deity they believed in? If, yes how dependent was their moral code on their religion?
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All had. It was the way of explaining the unknown. Everyone in a given group had the same belief system and each group had its own code depending upon the "wishes" of the diety/dieties involved. Except for the fact that groups aren't necessarily homogeneous in their beliefs, the same is true today -- the moral code is based upon the belief of what the wishes of the diety/dieties are.
 
Dancing_Queen said:
All had. It was the way of explaining the unknown. Everyone in a given group had the same belief system and each group had its own code depending upon the "wishes" of the diety/dieties involved. Except for the fact that groups aren't necessarily homogeneous in their beliefs, the same is true today -- the moral code is based upon the belief of what the wishes of the diety/dieties are.
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Thank you for your reply! (and all of the "hard work" you had to do going through this thread) :)
 
Part of the problem is that in most people's minds, "God" equates with a heavenly Father, similar to a loving parent, or sometimes a cruel tyrant, who is very human in "his" thinking and actions. And usually, not even a nice human being. More someone to be feared. And if you pray hard enough, maybe he'll listen to you and grant you your wishes.

But what if God is a mathematical equation or a scientific principle? Something so obscure and beyond human comprehension that it is pointless to even discuss it?

As an atheist, I'd find that kind of explanation a little easier to accept than the "fatherly" description found in most religions. Look at the size of the universe. We can't even conceive of it. The number of stars (or is it the number of galaxies?) is on the order of the number of grains of sand on all the beaches on earth. Trillions and trillions. We can't imagine such a number.

So, to me it makes no sense to suggest that the "ruler" of that indescribably enormous universe is particularly interested in us, the little microbes crawling around on a very small, ordinary planet (among billions of planets). It just comes across to me as human egotism, nothing more.

And the fact that people living thousands of years ago made up a lot of fairy tales about it, and then demanded that we believe them and live our lives accordingly, just proves how easily people can be frightened into believing nonsense. Many religions believe that if a child is indoctrinated early enough with the tenets of that religion, they will be under its control for life.
 

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