To vaccinate or not to vaccinate that should not be a question,

I have been debating this for the past week or so-mostly on Facebook-with non-vaxxers and I totally agree. The younger (than us) generation never saw and lived through these diseases. In 1954,my best friend`s mom contracted polio. My older sister babysat her kids the afternoon she became ill as she was too sick to care for her 4 little girls-one just a newborn. It wasn`t known until the next day that she was ill with polio. My parents were pretty upset and worried until the incubation period had passed. I never knew my friend`s mom to walk without braces and crutches again. I can still remember her having to always walk backwards down the stairs to the garage in order to leave the house.

I mentioned to one young mom in a discussion that I did understand that she was too young to have had these diseases and/or to have seen the horrific effects some of them can have. She said I insulted her. Didn`t quite get that.

I worry about my granddaughter-she`s only seven months old-too young for the vaccine- and my soon to be born greatgrandchild. These are the ones who are at risk.

I have actually decided not to debate this any more. I feel that the outcome of this will be that either the measles outbreak will be short-lived and we`ll be done with it,OR it will become a major epidemic,children will die and those that thought not vaccinating was in the best interests of their children will wake up and decide to vaccinate their kids. Of course,then we all know what`s going to happen. There will be a vaccine shortage and they won`t be able to. Hopefully if that happens,they will save the vaccine for the youngest and most at risk kiddos.
 

My biggest thing with this issue and the way it's being treated by the media types in particular. Many are simply jumping on the bandwagon and they talk about it like vaccines are 100% and 100% safe which is wrong. The same butt hats who reported on the 50% success rate of this year's flu vaccine are like oh just get your kids vaccinated no problemo, easy peezy. That and coaching & leading their medical commentators to say get vaccinated during their faux interview(which most are). Most doctors already say that because it's an accepted practice in their trade. I expect that. Not surprised but tired of the mainstream media crap again.

Any medical procedure comes with risk no matter how minimal it may be. Forcing a fluid into the body is a medical procedure no matter how minor or common it may seem. There's a reason the medical industry sits down with you and makes you initial and sign off on more paperwork for a one hour procedure than a one year apartment lease. Even if the doctor gives you the shot correctly you still have to hope the manufacturer of the fluid didn't mess up or is telling the truth. There are pages of fine print in drug literature for a reason other than directions. Complications, mistakes, side effects or defective are 'a' possibility with any medical procedure or drug. They might be minimal, they might be accepted but they exist. I've seen and/or experienced too many things that "could" go wrong or that there was "a chance" of happening.

Most problems with vaccines and other drugs trace back to the manufacturer. This is why in 1986 The National Childhood Vaccination Act which basically was designed to shield manufacturers from lawsuits. This is part of the reason the medical industry touts certains drugs and procedures without a care in the world. Just bumped a post this week about legal case which again basically shielded big pharma: Bartlett vs Mutual Pharmaceutical Company.

I don't have the sense of urgency that mainstream has now because I'm one of those who had all those things without complication. Most of my family and friends and age group has those diseases without complication. Those diseases can be detrimental to others as can a simple cold or case of the flu. There is no 100% solution. Should vaccines be a tool,yes but it is not a 100% safe or effective tool. Something like polio I be worried about getting someone vaccinated for but every disease that comes down the pike, no.
 
The African perspective - from Twitter

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I think I have had my shots. I ate the polio sugar cube.
I lived in the boonie's and never had any of the diseases until I got the chickenpox at 21 and stayed in the bathtub for two weeks.
 
I remember my parents talking about a diphtheria epidemic they both survived, and how horrible they said it was.

I also remember polio quite vividly -- my best friend had it and she had to be in one of those breathing machines (I think they called them iron lungs?) It absolutely terrified me. She lived, but one of her legs atrophied and she was left with a significant limp and had to wear a big built-up shoe and braces. The minute the Polio Pioneer thing (first folks to get the vaccine) came here, my folks signed us up and hot-footed it us off to get it. I think it was shots, but I also got the sugar cube thing at some point. I think the first vaccine was the Salk vaccine and the Sabin one was the later oral sugar cube one. ANYWAY, that vaccine saved lives and also mobility for countless children.

My sister and I also had the measles and did the dark room thing and my parents were very worried, I do remember that part quite vividly. My mom got some really super dark drapes to put up on the window and they put us in one room. We recovered just fine; however, I know that some didn't.

I personally think it is a serious mistake and downright foolish not to get kids immunized against diseases. I also think the schools should require them for all children attending school, except for those who cannot have them for medical reasons.
 
Mumps for little boys sometimes caused permanent sterility. I'm not sure whether it has a similar effect on ovaries. Probably not, since even in a little girl, all the ova she will release in her lifetime are already formed.

Still, a good reason to consider vaccination?
 
Are the children who are supposed to be protected with the measles vaccine, coming down with the measles? Wouldn't only the kids who did not get vaccinations get the measles?

Isn't it possible that the vaccines themselves are causing the spread of the disease? Does everyone here deny that vaccinations have any serious or deadly side effects?

I personally don't take vaccines anymore, after reading about their ineffectiveness, ingredients and side effects. I'm not sure about this measles outbreak and who is to blame, but the big pharmaceutical companies that put out these vaccines are bedfellows with the government, and that may be part of the reason for the latest push to get everyone vaccinated...follow the money.

I don't care to argue or change anyone's mind, were all entitled to our own thoughts and opinions. But information like this can't all be lies, IMO. Is everyone that considers information like this just labeled as nutjobs?

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/how-vaccinated-children-infect-non-vaccinated-0

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/measles-transmitted-vaccinated-gov-researchers-confirm

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/disney-measles-outbreak-mousetrap-ignorance
 
SB brings up a good point about vaccines. Did they cause it. Can they still transmit it?

There are some issues with child vaccines in particular including some say now if you vaccinate too early the child's immunity from their mother could still be in effect killing off the weakend virus in the vaccine. Also many say a booster is necessary even for children which is yet another shot. A 2011 measles outbreak in Canada brought some of these issues to light including vaccinated children getting the disease.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/measles-among-vaccinated-quebec-kids-questioned-1.1086151

In the recent California outbreak there was an 18% failure rate among the vaccinated.

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/vaccinated-people-get-measles-disneyland-blame-unvaccinated/

One last thing on the question of vaccinating or not. The US is not the only country dealing with this question. This year Germany is the middle of a measles outbreak far worse than than the US, almost quadruple the number of actual cases with a much smaller population. And they seem to be taking it in stride, no fuss.

http://www.ibtimes.com/measles-outb...-cases-yet-vaccination-debate-remains-1808930
 
I don't know what is going on with the latest American outbreak but conventional wisdom says that unless 90% plus of people are vaccinated, the opportunity exists for epidemics to break out. The problem here is that newborns, who haven't had time to be vaccinated yet, are vulnerable to the disease. This is less of a problem if the mothers are vaccinated and pass their immune status to the baby in utero and through breast feeding.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
I don't know what is going on with the latest American outbreak but conventional wisdom says that unless 90% plus of people are vaccinated, the opportunity exists for epidemics to break out. The problem here is that newborns, who haven't had time to be vaccinated yet, are vulnerable to the disease. This is less of a problem if the mothers are vaccinated and pass their immune status to the baby in utero and through breast feeding.
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They say that the mothers immunity actually negates a vaccine because a vaccine is weak version of the disease so I guess it's timing-when does the initial baby/moms immunity run out. In other words it easy to give a vaccine too early. And they keep upping or suggesting booster shots as well so one shot isn't enough. I wonder if getting and surviving the disease gives someone better immunity.
 
I had an auntie who was an infants teacher. Every time chicken pox broke out at school she came down with it again, but this is unusual.
I had chicken pox as a child - no vaccine then - and, touch wood, it has not returned in the form of shingles.

There are now cases of adults who survived polio as children finding that in later life the disease breaks out again.
Tuberculosis is another disease that apparently survives somewhere in the body only to manifest later when the immune system weakens. My grandfather was one of these.

When in his old age TB returned, everyone in the family was skin tested to see whether we had antibodies. Those who did were X-rayed. My sister and I didn't so we were vaccinated.

The best idea is not to contract the disease in the first place but how do you protect your children from all communicable diseases? I suggest that the optimum way is to vaccinate against the most dangerous and the most commonplace and then let the kids outside the house to play and go to school/childcare etc.
 
WhatInThe said:
They say that the mothers immunity actually negates a vaccine because a vaccine is weak version of the disease so I guess it's timing-when does the initial baby/moms immunity run out. In other words it easy to give a vaccine too early. And they keep upping or suggesting booster shots as well so one shot isn't enough. I wonder if getting and surviving the disease gives someone better immunity.
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"They say" are two words that always raise questions in my mind. Who are "they" and on what evidence are "they" making statements?
 
Thanks WhatInThe. That is an interesting article. Nothing is cut and dried, is it?

If children are not vaccinated then keeping them away from the disease is all you've got.

And there's another factor one would have to consider when debating the question, noted Dr. Allison McGeer, an infectious diseases expert at Toronto's Mount Sinai Hospital.

Many measles cases seen in Canada are in the children of new Canadians who have travelled to their homelands to show off their new babies. Some of those families are travelling to places where measles viruses are still circulating.

"If you knew that a child was going to stay in Canada … a 15-month first dose [schedule], based on this experience, certainly sounds like a sensible thing to do," McGeer said.

"But measles is one of those diseases where when immigrant parents take their children home to see the grandparents, it frequently happens before or just about the age of one year. … If you shift the first dose to older, some of those kids will come back with measles."
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We've just had an instance of a public hospital notifying parents between certain dates that their children may not have been effectively vaccinated because the refrigerators were not cold enough. Stupid cuts to the health budget - they were using ordinary home fridges. They were offering revaccination to make sure.

Some cases of ineffective immunisation may not be the fault of the vaccines at all.
 
Afterthought, do schools still exclude children with communicable diseases like measles, mumps, chicken pox etc for mandatory periods of 2-3 weeks?

When I was training to be a teacher we took a course called "School Health" that informed us of the symptoms of common childhood diseases and how long the child had to stay home to minimise the outbreak. That was before there were so many immunisation programs as are available now.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Thanks WhatInThe. That is an interesting article. Nothing is cut and dried, is it?

If children are not vaccinated then keeping them away from the disease is all you've got.



We've just had an instance of a public hospital notifying parents between certain dates that their children may not have been effectively vaccinated because the refrigerators were not cold enough. Stupid cuts to the health budget - they were using ordinary home fridges. They were offering revaccination to make sure.

Some cases of ineffective immunisation may not be the fault of the vaccines at all.
Click to expand...

If nothing else it brings into question the process or science because how much and when to dose is part of 'the science'. I also wonder how much immunity winds up being permanently inherited.

One must also ask how much the decline in many diseases in cases and severity might have something to do with sanitation, nutrition and/or current treatments for various diseases(technology)?

One last thing on vaccine effectiveness in general. Europe's flu vaccine is only 3% effective compared to the 23% effective rate in the US.

http://health.nbcnews.com/_news/2015/02/05/29224655-flu-vaccine-doesnt-work-in-europe-either?d=1
 
I didn't know that there was such a thing as a shingles shot.

Apparently you are correct. All seniors should consider getting vaccinated.

From the Australian medical Association website

[h=1]Shingles vaccine available for plus 50s[/h]Australians may have to wait until well into 2014 or even later to get subsidised access to the world’s first vaccine against the debilitating shingles infection. Pharmaceutical manufacturer bioCSL has released the first batch of the American-made vaccine Zostavax on the Australian market, allowing adults aged 50 years or more to be vaccinated against the reactivation of the varicella-zoster virus, which causes shingles and can lead to post-herpetic neuralgia.

But the protection comes with a hefty price tag, with a single dose of the vaccine costing up to $250.

While Zostavax has been approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration for use by people aged 50 years or older, it is yet to be assessed by the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee for inclusion in the National Immunisation Program or on the Pharmaceutical Benefits Schedule.

The vaccine is indicated for the prevention of shingles in those aged between 50 and 59 years, and in the prevention of shingles and post-herpetic neuralgia and the reduction of acute and chronic zoster-associated pain in those aged 60 years or older.

A spokeswoman for bioCSL, which is distributing Zostavax in Australia under license from the American manufacturer Merck, said the company was “reasonably early” in the process of having the vaccine registered on the PBS. A submission on the product is being prepared for the PBAC, but the committee is not expected to review the application until March next year.

Meanwhile, those seeking protection from shingles are advised to see a doctor to arrange a private prescription. According to bioCSL, the vaccine is now widely available.

bioCSL said shingles was a common yet incurable condition that would be experienced by one in every two adults by the time they were 85 years. The risk and severity of the condition increases markedly with age. It is caused by the reactivation of the varicella-zoster virus that causes chicken pox in children. Following initial infection, the virus lies dormant in nerve roots near the spinal cord, and can reactivate at any time.

The infection often appears as a painful rash or blisters on the skin, and the associated pain can be excruciating. In addition to the rash, in 50 per cent of cases shingles can lead to post-herpetic neuralgia, a chronic and debilitating form of neuropathic pain that can persist months or even years after the rash has healed.

bioCSL said that more than 97 per cent of Australians had developed antibodies to the varicella-zoster virus by the time they were 30 years of age, indicating almost universal potential to develop shingles among the adult population. But Associate Professor John Litt of Flinders University was cited by bioCSL as warning that there was no way to predict who would develop shingles, or when.
Associate Professor Litt said that, in the absence of a cure, vaccination against shingles was an important public health measure.

“The impact of shingles on quality of life is comparable to other chronic diseases such as heat failure, type 2 diabetes and depression,” he said.

Adrian Rollins
Click to expand...
 
Dame Warrigal said:
I didn't know that there was such a thing as a shingles shot.

Apparently you are correct. All seniors should consider getting vaccinated.

From the Australian medical Association website
Click to expand...


Absolutely!! If you had Chickenpox... you can get Shingles.. I had my Shingles vaccine last summer. My insurance covered it in full. It's expensive.. Here at Walgreens, it was $224
 
WhatInThe said:
If nothing else it brings into question the process or science because how much and when to dose is part of 'the science'. I also wonder how much immunity winds up being permanently inherited.

One must also ask how much the decline in many diseases in cases and severity might have something to do with sanitation, nutrition and/or current treatments for various diseases(technology)?

One last thing on vaccine effectiveness in general. Europe's flu vaccine is only 3% effective compared to the 23% effective rate in the US.

http://health.nbcnews.com/_news/2015/02/05/29224655-flu-vaccine-doesnt-work-in-europe-either?d=1
Click to expand...

I believe there is a threshold in Herd Immunity... under which an outbreak can occur. Apparently we are well under the Immunity threshold now for measles.. due to the unfounded fears being spread... for who the heck knows why.. All of the outrageous claims of Autism and mental retardation have been debunked. Yet for some reason people cling to them like gold.
 
Ralphy1 said:
Seniors should not forego a shingles shot...
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I refuse to get a shingles shot, if I get shingles, I will use natural methods to treat it. People who get the shingles shot, just like the flu and measles vaccine, can still come down with the condition. http://blog.drbrownstein.com/should-you-get-a-shingles-vaccine/


"The author wanted to answer the question, “In older adults, is vaccination against herpes zoster effective and safe? The author summarized the Cochrane Review and stated that, “The herpes zoster (shingles) vaccine has demonstrated effectiveness in preventing shingles in older adults.”

However, reading the section titled Practice Pointers presented a different picture. In this section, the author states that, over a median surveillance period of 3.12 years, with over 52,000 participants, there was a 51% relative risk reduction in confirmed cases of herpes zoster in those that received the vaccine.

Furthermore, the author stated that among those aged 60-69, the number needed to treat to prevent one case of shingles was 50. Among those 70 years and older, the number needed to treat was 100.

These numbers show that, in those aged 60-69, the shingles vaccine was ineffective for 98% (forty-nine out of fifty) of those studied. For those aged 70 and older, the vaccine was 99% ineffective, since 99 out of 100 received no benefit.

I am incredulous that anyone looking at this data could proclaim that the shingles vaccine was effective. In fact, it wasn’t. According to this data, the shingles vaccine was a 98-99% failure.

Assuming the cost of the vaccine is $200 (a generous assumption), we would have to vaccinate 50 subjects aged 60-69 years to prevent two cases of shingles at a cost of $10,000 per case. For those over 70 years, 100 patients need to be vaccinated to prevent one case of shingles at a cost of $20,000. Clearly, this vaccine is not cost effective in these tough economic times.

Finally, the author summarized the adverse effect risk of the shingles vaccine. The number needed to harm from the vaccine was 2.8. That means for every 2.8 vaccines given, one patient was harmed.

Furthermore, for every one hundred subjects vaccinated, one had a severe adverse reaction such as rash, fever, or hospitalization.

At the end of the article, the author states, “Overall, the herpes zoster vaccine is safe, effective, and well tolerated…” I can’t understand where that statement came from. The numbers don’t lie. The concluding statement should have read, ”Overall, the herpes zoster (Shingles) vaccine is neither safe, effective or well tolerated.”
 
Had it... didn't even get a sore arm from where the needle went in... didn't feel sick... run a fever or anything.. So .. operating from the theory of "ME".. I'd say it was safe. If it keeps me from getting Shingles.. I'm happy. BUT you cannot prove a negative. I may not have ever gotten shingles anyway.. who can say? But I at least feel good about my decision to get the shot. I know far too many people that have suffered.
 
Shingles can, if you are unlucky, affect the optic nerve and consequently, your vision.
I value my eyes and this would be enough to tip me towards vaccination, even though the risk of shingles might be low.
However, the AMA figures suggest that the risk is probably not as low as we think.
 
Years ago my then husband contracted shingles in the head, the pain was so horrific he was literally screaming in agony, the doctor was called into the house and he took one look at him and had him hospitilised because the shingles had travelled down his forehead and was too close to the eye for comfort.........after seeing and remembering what my then husband went through, when the shingles jab became available here I didn't hestitate to have it done, that was 16 months ago and free on the NHS.
 
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My mother had shingles and she was never the same after. Don't delay, get a shot today!
 

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